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Death Changes

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  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cadeyrn said:



    Sarrius said:

    They denied the quickest solution.

    Why is quickest the best way to take in this situation? Why is buying you off going to change anything?

    You can reply as many times as you like with,"If you'd done X, I would have done Y", but that doesn't make it true.




    Because before Khandava stepped in, we were destroying you and believe it or not, I would have laid off if you had bought me off. You are clearly too prejudiced to admit that though. It's okay, its trendy to hate me. I'm glad you finally feel like a big boy!

    Re @Khizan - I can understand that. I am focusing more on this specific instance. I still don't think a hard enrage, so to speak, is the way to handle this. In a situation where we are unrelenting and unwilling to compromise, a system should exist to settle one way or the other and I get what you mean.
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hind sight is 20/20. 

    Sarrius: In an alternative universe where I wasn't a douchebag, I would have done this.
    Said every villain ever.
    image
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Ahkan said:

    Hind sight is 20/20. 


    Sarrius: In an alternative universe where I wasn't a douchebag, I would have done this.
    Said every villain ever.
    If I truly didn't give a ****, I wouldn't have offered them peace.

    Edit: rephrase: if I didn't care about keeping my word, I wouldn't have offered it. It doesn't matter though.
    Post edited by Sarrius on
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
    Velion
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Now that Kinsarmar has surrendered, I feel like I can take away everything I 'learned' from this and make some notes:

    Khizan's idea of a 'screw you, failboat' button is a really heavy-handed method of dealing with this. However, since a majority of Imperian (including myself, some/most times) cannot help themselves, it's probably going to end up being what happens some day. Maybe not tomorrow, or next week, but some time down the road. We might as well stop the damage before it starts and just do it. The question is how much manipulation is there on the side of the offenders. If it is based on number of deaths, it becomes an unfun resource management situation. 'Sorry Timmy, you can't come in the glory charge because your deaths count just as much towards the Discretionary Generator Laser as Slagathor the Asswhooper' is not something I really want to say. It cuts the Rynns, Lartuses, Dringles, Kavys, and Evies out of raiding, leaving the 'big playmakers' with no expendable troops to contribute to the dogpile.

    In the end, this sort of resource managing minigame just does something we said we don't want to do: make cities impregnable. It does it in a way that casts the illusion that they aren't, but they really are. We're limiting the amount of people you can bring to a raid, which limits the bodies that are swinging swords at people, at guards, and at siege engines. With less people/manpower, you have a much smaller margin for success. There are fringe strategies you could employ, but I don't see those strategies actually working in any significant manner. For instance: numbness cheese does not mean you don't die, it just means you MIGHT take one guard with you when you do die - how many guards can you really chip away at before the generator activates Protocol 1337 and blows you up upon entering the city again?

    Speaking of Numbness, that **** is dumb. Get rid of it or make it so elite guards pierce it.

    If you want to get rid of raids, you take this solution and make it even more powerful than Khizan suggests. Weigh the numbers so the odds are just strictly impossible. In exchange, do something, ANYTHING, with townes. They are basically useless besides for the poorly constructed commodity and trade ministry system. They contain a bunch of vulnerable guards in smaller amounts. They have several vulnerable housing plots and one shop. There's nothing relevant about them physically, just in a roleplay-sense (and even that is sort of bland, rare, or samey) and we can preserve that while also encouraging conflict around, inside, or about them.
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They just need to make death meaningful again, such that there is some incentive not to attack a city for hours and take out one guard per death - killing 50 guards over the course of 50 deaths. You could still do it, but you should have some reason to think 'you know, this might not be a good idea'.

    The current mechanic of death not even being an inconvenience isn't working.
    SarriusAzefelIluvVelion
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Juran said:
    They just need to make death meaningful again, such that there is some incentive not to attack a city for hours and take out one guard per death - killing 50 guards over the course of 50 deaths. You could still do it, but you should have some reason to think 'you know, this might not be a good idea'.

    The current mechanic of death not even being an inconvenience isn't working.
    Our mindset the whole time was "they have 15 people to our 5, but death costs nothing and we have more time on our hands and more stamina for this ****. we will win.".

    I don't believe a conflict system about townes even needs a reward besides conquering the towne or something. People who truly love that crap for any number of reasons will take that as a reward in itself.
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mean, it also trivializes victory which sort of defeats the entire purpose of fighting.

    No one is going to think 'oh wow, Antioch is so good at city conflict' at the end of this because they obviously did not earn it. They were simply the side more willing to graveyard zerg for kills during off hours when no one was there to stop them.
    Iluv
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think any of the people I work with really care about that, because they perceive it as a victory and don't care what the 'losers' think. They perceive the loss of Kinsarmar's 1mil+ gold as their trophy.
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
    Menoch
  • CadeyrnCadeyrn Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    Personally, I'd like to see this as an overhaul of the City Defence system than anything else.

    Guards should become non-valuable commodities if they are going to remain easy to kill. Let us place barracks which spawn guards, if you want to make it so that you can stop them spawning, that is great, make it so stopping them from spawning has an increasing cost to it. I'm not sure on the best commodities to do this, or what form it would take, seems like something that needs a bit of thought.

    For siege, have a different mechanism of keeping them firing. Personally, I'd like to see totems (but under a new name) in engineering that have new and interesting home-field advantages, but that can be turned for a limited time and to limited effect (maybe using the Shard system to both create, power and "turn" them).

    For example, in this situation it could be the presence of a totem tuned to automate the cannon.

    Simplify guard movement to call forth a useful number of Guards from the barracks, and then suspend the generation of new guards in that room for the relevant time.

    Totems not tuned to fire a cannon or other siege equipment could be used to give bonuses to equilibrium/balance, increased health or mana regeneration, resistance to mind control, or anything else that works.

    For a turned totem, they could take on a very low strength advantage, such things as a resistance to ranged damage or negation of the surge/failure effect.
    Svorai
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sarrius said:
    I don't think any of the people I work with really care about that, because they perceive it as a victory and don't care what the 'losers' think. They perceive the loss of Kinsarmar's 1mil+ gold as their trophy.
    Possibly, but even if the execution of a city raid is not difficult, the set up is usually time consuming and challenging. What you did was literally throw your bodies at the guards until you won by attrition damage, because you would respawn and they would not. It is a foregone conclusion that throwing yourself into that grinder enough times will result in a 'win'.

    What did your presence bring to this that any other person with similar motivations could not have achieved? Twenty newbies with KICK GUARD could have achieved the same ends. Taking the risk out of a raid trivializes the whole meaningfulness of raiding. When a player can so clearly separate their contribution from the results, nothing of value was earned.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Kyrock did it before it was cool. He also did it by himself. He was so much cooler than you.


    Pretty sure that Sarrius flamed him at the time for the attempt. 
    image
    Sarrius
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Considering I was never active when Kyrock was, besides when he was Antiochian for a short period of time? Nope, nope, nope.

    I think 'totems' would also solve the problem of separator movement (which is an abomination we all abuse), but I don't see it happening. The easiest solution is just something Khizan gave: something that provides the illusion of possibility, but really suppresses everything.. much like most other systems in Imperian and IRE at large.

    Death meaning something seems to be out, too, since Garryn says that guard deaths = exp loss. It has to be a different mechanic entirely.


    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're highlighting all the wrong problems here. This is likely because you weren't actually the 'brains' of the operation. You were just a passenger on someone else's coat tails until the 4th quarter.

    Separator walking is easily overcome by trenches, as annoying as they are. Kinsarmar used 8 of these improperly.

    The problems we're seeing exploited are actually taming, profession, and shard related. Mount dash and profession dash bypass trenches and guard clots.

    With anti-magick, once they're in, they're in until they decide to leave, which is a large part of their success. You can't keep them out. Five classes have ways back in after the initial raid. (mark return + heirloom). No other circle can duplicate this. Marks in hostile areas (including shard mark and raksha band) need to be cleared on death in that area. This is a no brainer. 

    The shard system is kind of a let down here too. The higher tier powers allowing you to use obelisk powers without controlling that monolith? Basically, the highest tier of research negates the entire war system for the paltry cost of a shard. Groovy.

    image
    Ziat
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Racial dash also bypasses it - I reincarnated Muamrite to pass trenches, just FYI. I figured 'profession dash' accounts for that, but racial abilities are often forgotten.

    On the topic of professions, I think it is an exchange. You have a much easier time getting in theoretically (EMPHASIS ON THEORETICALLY) with actual off plane movement, as opposed to tracking on top of skywatchers or masking in, but once we get in, we stay in. Is it a good exchange? Hell no. It's a dumb exchange. I can't for one moment mount an argument against that because it is stupid.

    I do agree that 'ATTUNE X OBELISK' is pretty dumb, on a side note. I didn't believe Juran when he told me that was what the capstone of each tree was. I think they ran out of ideas (most of Sukhder, anyone?) though.
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So uh, doing a bit around the wiki, and read this:

    The Arena is a place where the mortals of Imperian may fight without the normal losses associated with combat. While battling in the Arena, no experience will be lost from death, and salves or elixirs will not be used up. 

    :D
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Velion
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Those 30 seconds are increased to 1 minute if the body is held by an enemy, is that not working well enough?
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2013
    Garryn said:
    Those 30 seconds are increased to 1 minute if the body is held by an enemy, is that not working well enough?
    If someone loyal to the organization is holding the body, the person can be returned to combat instantly via a resurrection skill. This takes coordination and all three sides get one. Otherwise, I don't think anyone should be getting back to combat as quickly as they are.

    Getting a body comes down to either having someone assigned to that job (they don't get to fight) or hoping your side is the first to recover balance after someone gets a killing blow. This isn't the best way to slow down people returning from Dis, because it's almost entirely random. The side with more people will have more frequent opportunities to corpse grab, but I'm not even certain that I like that as a balancing force. There has to be a better way to balance out death during ongoing battles, and I think a two minute rez timer is right.

    In my ideal world, 'regroup and try again' is preferable to 'everyone come back in as soon as you rez'. The latter fights are encapsulated, and one side might win two in a row before losing the next four. You end up with lots of mini-winners and mini-losers instead of dragging on through an endless graveyard train.
    KhizanAhkan
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    We have auto-pickup of mob corpses, how about extending that to player corpses as well?
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Garryn said:
    We have auto-pickup of mob corpses, how about extending that to player corpses as well?
    That might well work, I'd be happy to see that tried.

    You would remove mid-combat resurrection as an option, but people have been fighting against that as a thing for years now anyway.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like the idea of a two minute timer, even as someone who has a tracking mount and usually gets into fights 30 seconds after dying. 
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Much love for the quick changes.
    Khizan
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