Raiding a city and killing all their guards, monolith and siege is zerging in itself. Posting a public post to brag about it is worse. There is no argument there and I hope you do not continue to carry it out because what AM did was ugly. Kinsarmar does not have combatants and is weak in general after a few of their people left. You took advantage of their weakness.
No, zerging is the use of many, many bodies over and over to attack a single point or individual with the efforts of eventually wearing down their will to fight or resist or continue their actions. We did not throw 'many many bodies' at this. Zerging implies we all died many, many times and stuck to it to demoralize. You can't demoralize mobiles, especially not elite guard mobiles who shield to sleep back to full health and that shield cannot be razed.
Semantics (and the topic of my ego/bragging) aside, you have no right to tell me there is and is not an argument in anything. Sure, I even admitted that the people responsible for this participated or initiated it on a lark. It happens. What we did was definitely severe, but ugly? I disagree. The initiators did something they very rarely get to enjoy the challenge or activity of nowadays: dismantling an entire enemy city. It is a point of enjoyment for some players to know that they can still do so, if they allow for some level of player error on the defender's part in their plans. Kinsarmar's loss of players falls entirely on their own heads, but that is not the topic here and I don't have the time or wherewithal to argue the social issues of the Magick circle with you. You never listened when I tried before, no reason to try again.
Yes, we took advantage of weakness - the weakness that Kinsarmar lacked the ability to intelligently create a simple guard and siege grid. This isn't a challenging, it's just that nobody bothered learning at all.
In regards to my original topic, I can guarantee you that you would have had far less effort if the old death system was back. It is so clear. There is so much unnecessary trying and killing just because death doesn't mean anything. Take Brishi. He raids, repeatedly and no matter how many times we kill him, he'll be at our doorstep trying to lure someone. Why is he doing this? If he was losing 2% PK plus a hefty amount of overall on all this, he would have gone home at possibly the fifth death. It is all linked to raiding. People are motivated to PK because it literally has no consequences.
He would still be doing it, because he kills chumps like Seraphyne, who are magically worth far more than 10% PK EXP, in the next shardfall. Especially because PK and Overall are both actually worthless - it is easy to get them back as any class in this game. You can bash back those kinds of losses in a very timely and efficient manner, and then you can go right back to it. Especially if you have some margin of success during your antics (kills, for instance) or get jumped during your comeback-bashing. You act as if an arbitrary EXP penalty will deter people who have the cerebral functions necessary to realize how piss easy it is to compensate for any realistic or reasonable penalty you could impose. PK should have no consequences in this paradigm because the game has moved past the mindset of losing EXP on death - it isn't fun, it hurts player retention, etc. I don't agree with it for many other reasons, but that is the way things are and we both have to live with (and take advantage of, I guess?) it.
I haven't played a lot of games but I have been playing league of legends and since you do as well, you know even their death has a consequence. You can't make stupid moves and go overconfident and charge in a team. If you are stupid and push a lane deep knowing that the enemy team will come and kill you, you are risking a loss because it turns into a 5v4 and they'll take that advantage to destroy the rest of the team and push for the nexus.
Death has no consequence in League of Legends outside of a wait time to get back in and a loss of jungle buffs/Baron. In fact, you are using a pretty bad example here: League of Legends also reduced their death penalties because DotA and HoN's death penalties were atrociously unfun and frankly unintuitive for a learning player. We have the same system for the same reasons. The same consequences exist for dying too much - you run the risk of being useless for some reason due to times killed (LoL: EXP/Farm starvation, Imperian: Death penalty).
It is not the same with Imperian. Brishi yells "TROLLLLLLL" and rushes into guards? here is the next thing that happens "rt brb."
Yes, and you can easily choose not to resist because unlike Kinsarmar, Celidon has a working guard grid that makes sure you don't fall to the same tricks. You don't give security privileges to notorious AFKers or idiots.
I'm just asking for death consequences, especially when it comes to raiding. With shardfalls already initiating a lot of conflict, we don't need a conflict where your city is annihilated and you are force to rework on all of this. Not to mention the fear and some people not even logging in. It's not a healthy environment and it doesn't support the game in anyway except make happy a few trolls that hop all the time whenever they see a stronger side
I just wanted to point out: AM doesn't have a conflict initiation engine that matters anymore. We're done with shardfalls. We have no stake in them now, and we could easily let the other two sides have them besides a passing collection of one fall every day or two, or the randoms/littles that fall periodically. We have finished our research - so what is in it for us, besides forcing you all to wait infinitely small periods of extra time for your research to start? I guess cheap, easy, quick PK - but that isn't enough.
If people cannot disassociate with the state of their in game character's city, they shouldn't be playing anyways. We did not harass or kill any citizens that did not engage us, so far as I know (I was not present for any PLAYER-based resistance), and the people involved have more tact and class than to kill innocent newbies - especially when I run a tighter ship in that regard than some others. If they simply had left the territory and gone bashing or RPing in Celidon, their play experience would have been interrupted, but not cut off or otherwise harmed.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Well I'll tell you what. It was amazing fun. From the early moments of causing frustration through running around the sewers and cutting off the rushers from the guards, to the later moments of slowly draining every siege weapon and the final rush to finish them and the guard clot off (which was lacking due to the sewers phase). And I don't think making a post in celebration of those that worked for this to be a bad thing at all. All of this was IC and so an IC post to followup and let the realm know of the exploits of the free people, to inspire others and whatever else is totally logical.
And yes, no novices were harmed during these events. One even had a friendly chat!
Death has no consequence in League of Legends outside of a wait time to get back in and a loss of jungle buffs/Baron. In fact, you are using a pretty bad example here: League of Legends also reduced their death penalties because DotA and HoN's death penalties were atrociously unfun and frankly unintuitive for a learning player. We have the same system for the same reasons. The same consequences exist for dying too much - you run the risk of being useless for some reason due to times killed (LoL: EXP/Farm starvation, Imperian: Death penalty).
This is a bad example on your part.
The death penalties in LoL may be reduced when compared to other MOBAs, but they are definitely existent. Overextending on your own during the lategame and getting smashed can be a game-losing moment. Feeding early can lose you a game.
Hell, in LoL, you'd never corpserun a tower to death because it's an incredibly stupid thing to do that you only do when you're trolling. In Imperian, you can zerg a guard clot down fine with no consequences.
Also, I just got to say. If the shoe was on the other foot and Stavenn or Kinsarmar or somebody had swarmed your guards to death, you'd be raging. You know it, I know it, and everybody else knows it.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
An xp death penalty isn't relevant for anyone who actually pks. Assuming all you care about is not losing aspect (I assume this is the case for most pkers), you can die a huge number of times before even getting into the red. Most people kill more than they die, so it instantly becomes a non issue. Something like that wouldn't stop people from killing guards/taking risks. For instance, has this ever happened before? If the answer is yes it was evidently doable under the old death system. (Not a rhetorical question, I actually don't know but assume it has.)
I wasn't around for the superraid, but if four people cleared your guards/siege under any circumstances you did something catastrophically wrong. That's not posturing, just simple fact. You shouldn't be able to do that with or without zerging if guards/siege are set up correctly.
It should have been impossible for 4 people to take down the siege line, unless someone had gone around sabotaging it prior to the event. There were in excess of 12 cannon, 2 bolt and 2 net on the main line. The 6 or 7 line from the Gates I can see as reasonable to remove.
I am aware that shardwalls have changed the security game in quite a large way and I believe they should be looked at for this reason entirely.
The main line wasn't sabotaged to my knowledge. Rather, it was weakened by standing in rooms adjacent to it as much as possible to deplete cannonballs. Once that was done, a main charge up the parade to the bolts followed by a cleanup of the rest of the guards disabled it all rather quickly, more so then I expected. But I digress, it should be impossible. One of the big things here was that the earlier running around the sewers had caused a lot of frustration and that combined with poor guard management resulted in there being far fewer guards left in the city proper.
First and foremost...this sums up AM beautifully: we tool advantage of it
An inadvertent typo which becomes the most telling thing of Sarrius and AM. Taking advantage and being tools.
In the long run, I like the new death. It makes it easier for other players to get into combat and really lose nothing, which increases involvement and the overall experience. This is all a good thing and makes it more fun and makes IRE more money. \o/
So, my knee jerk reaction was that the death system is bad. It's not 'bad' but it's new and the dudes upstairs really have no concept of how the game works or how things play out. Some kinks need to be banged out. The biggest problem here is that you're not dead long enough. The second problem here is that there's no real penalty for dying. If the derps have proving anything while they tool around, it's that there is no incentive to play intelligently. What muddies this issue is that the dudes upstairs are busy and don't exactly keep a real back and forth going to keep 'fixing it in the wild' like they claim to.
There isn't enough of a penalty for dying to guards. There needs to be. Look at how the AM derps phrase everything. "It's your fault/responsibility/whatever." They have nothing to lose. Kryss, Brishi, Sarrius can be absolute retards for 3-4 hours and walk away with nothing but a huge e-rection and congratulate themselves how awesome they think they are. The 'victim' of the raid has no way out of the raid but to quit. Any system where quitting is the answer is a bad. The fact you practically endorsed it on U-stream just threw gas on the fire. Once a couple tards start raiding, there are two ways to get them to stop. You kick the ever loving shit out of them or you quit. With the new death system, the threshold of beating someone into submission is so much higher. Where you had to win 1-2 engagements in a city to scare people off, now you have to win 8. And remember, "If at first you don't succeed, bring more dudes." There are more raiders every iteration of the fight. Every time they win, it resets the retard clock and you're dug in for another hour.
Your pk enforcement (or lack thereof) is shoddy in the best of situations and is useless in a raid situation. The city really becomes a high difficulty bashing area. If I want to stop them, I'm giving 4-8 mouth breathing derps a reason to use me as a pinata of pk xp for the duration. Even if I 'win' the battle, the war isn't over until the hot pockets roll out of the microwave. God knows when that is going to happen. There is no reprieve from the raid. The only thing I can do is ctoff and hope some self righteous city leader doesn't faux Leonidas us into a larger pk pinata. As a player, I really have nothing to gain by defending. As a raider, I have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
So, enough with the ranting about the problem. Here's some solutions @jeremy
-Step 1: Reprieve
Dying to a player in an area you're enemied to should have some penalty associated with it. Like a x2 death duration. Why? I need a breather to move guards back to locations. Siege has no preparation to it. They just walk in.
-Step 2 Crime and punishment
Every guard death starts a 5 minute timer. This timer resets on every guard death. Every guard death within this period, adds a stack. The level of stack determines the penalties.
First guard death is straight xp loss. This is a flat rate. Make it high. 1-3% per guard death.
Second guard death gets you into the 'berserker' state. You now have damage maluses across the board. +15%.
Third guard death you're a little worse for wear. You take a level 1 eq/balance penalty
Fifth guard death: You should be penalized for being this bad. You take increased xp loss.
That's a severe system, and really I would endorse that because the people we play with in this game are the sort of people you make arguments with a cattle prod and not reasonable arguments or systems.
A lighter system would be an increasing amount of time spent dead based on guard deaths per time. If a derp was dead for 3-5 minutes after losing twice, god. I'd be ecstatic.
-Step 3 Put skill back into raiding
-When you die in an enemy territory, it needs to wipe shard return, mark return, twist ring. This is just common sense at this point. You should have to work to penetrate into the city, not have bad skills star fleet you behind enemy lines.
-Trenches are awesome for raid defense. It stops the w\\w\\w\\w\\order horse dash ne. The problem is that they're just as bad for me when I'm moving guards. I'm the defender. This is my dominion. I can think of at least 5 ways that I can walk across trenches without being 'slow' the entire time.
-Re-evaluate the distribution and effectiveness of 'escape' skills. Why? Because it's easy to run from guards if you have two iq points.
Take raiding away from inside the city. Take raiding away from the guards themselves. The focus of the raid needs to be substantial. Let them steal shards. Let them steal the city's artifact. Let it be an ongoing capture the flag. Break into the vault and steal x, y, z. But for the love of god, give it a logical conclusion. De-incentive four hour camp fests. I hated them when I was a toolbox and did them. I hate them moreso that I watch them troll the crap out of other people.
Oh, how did I forget this. ******Read this********* Have guard deaths remove the champion effect. Here's why. If I'm a champion and I die to a guard. I lose 0 experience. It's an xp buffer to side step your system. Fix plz.
@Ahkan: The only thing I'd add is that the punishments should be for guard and player deaths inside a city.
Also, monoliths and similar skills should perhaps prevent marks, etc. as well like they do for other similar skills in the game. You should also not be able to enter an enemied/not welcome area while graced.
@Jeremy: Please read Ahkan's post seriously and realize that the majority of players would support this. It is in the best interest of all cities. It doesn't matter how much increased involvement you get from new death if you just lose it all because of a small portion of the population.
Without commenting on the issue as a whole, I'll just note that deaths to guards (this includes in-city siege) do cost experience, the amount of which is the same as under the old death system - nothing at all changes there except for the time spent dead.
Take raiding away from inside the city. Take raiding away from the guards themselves. The focus of the raid needs to be substantial. Let them steal shards. Let them steal the city's artifact. Let it be an ongoing capture the flag. Break into the vault and steal x, y, z. But for the love of god, give it a logical conclusion. De-incentive four hour camp fests. I hated them when I was a toolbox and did them. I hate them moreso that I watch them troll the crap out of other people.
God, no. Don't add PvP objectives to cities. Don't encourage this crap. A city should be a place of relative safety so that people have an option to not deal with this kind of crap.
If anything, turn the townes into fortresses and let people raid them. As it stands now, townes are 100% completely and utterly useless, so this might actually give them some purpose in the game.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Without commenting on the issue as a whole, I'll just note that deaths to guards (this includes in-city siege) do cost experience, the amount of which is the same as under the old death system - nothing at all changes there except for the time spent dead.
Yes, but that xp loss is negligible. I could probably die 500 times before I'd really notice.
I'll comment a bit on that - I'm sitting at 71% of level 99... over the course of my 5 deaths, I lost less than 1%. I'm fine with laughing that off and I probably cared more about XP than anyone else on that trip because it actually matters to me...
The more I think about it, the more I think I like @Ahkan's suggestions, as ad hominem as a lot of the post was, I think the end solutions are fine and good. I still think the question boils down to whether or not you want raiding to keep being a part of Imperian, and if so, what are we raiding for other than out of boredom. As it stands, it took a variety of people 12+ hours and the big 'win' for us is that we cost another city a ridiculous amount of gold. That's not a really big perk for us other than entertainment and it's a pretty crippling blow on time and resources for the raided party. I DO still think the central issue here isn't death, and there is a deeper problem going on.
We need a definition on ad hominem, stat. I used AM's antics because they've been the primary example for the past few years and they've presented the worst justifications for their behaviors. When the game opened, Stavenn was the one steam rolling Antioch. Raiding is dumb. The deterrent to raiding has always been death. We made death less important. Christ, pay attention to the whole logic class.
Imperian is a game built on band-aids. We're offering band aids to push consequences back into losing at raiding. You died because you raided stupidly. You should be punished for being stupid. Instead, the game is like "teeheee, be dead for 30 seconds." After that brief, inconsequential period, you're ready to pick up where you left off having lost nothing. From the log log I saw, you should have lost an amount equal to what Kinsarmar lost, a la Pyrrhic victory. In reality, you didn't lose progress, a foothold, or an advantage. Meanwhile, the people defending were losing patience, guards, and gold with no end in sight. Normal people don't want to get abuse in a text game for 12 hours because a couple of dudes want to be dicks and then retitle the 'grief' fest' a war of attrition post hoc.
The war of attrition is on the forums and the mortality end point is measured in brain cells.
There was a weakness in their defence and their players. I exploited it. And it was fun too. I'm going to give the whole experience five stars out of five. Would do again.
Judging by the death logs, you kind of sucked at exploiting it. You were able to persist in poorly exploiting a weakness because the death system is too forgiving. This resulted in it being more enjoyable for you, because there was little to no penalty. Insightful.
I'd do it again regardless of death penalty given half a chance. I mean, why not? It's fun. That's what I play this game for - fun. Whether it or I sucked is irrelevant to me. Stirring other people up and provoking outbursts such as this is fun too for the record.
2013/12/06 00:37:52 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 00:56:19 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 00:57:52 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 02:01:07 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2013/12/06 02:07:33 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 02:13:48 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2013/12/06 02:23:03 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 06:26:13 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Guardswoman of Kinsarmar.
2013/12/06 06:40:02 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Guardswoman of Kinsarmar.
2013/12/06 00:58:12 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 01:51:08 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 01:58:53 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2013/12/06 02:04:48 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 02:10:43 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 02:12:42 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 02:13:43 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 02:19:50 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 02:23:27 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 02:32:53 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2013/12/06 06:40:02 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Warrior of Kinsarmar.
2013/12/06 06:51:46 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Warrior of Kinsarmar.
2013/12/06 08:05:07 - Menoch has been slain by an elite Warrior of Kinsarmar.
I'm not going to do this for everyone involved, because work, but that is the deathlog of the 2 who were involved the longest... look at the time stamps on those. Guard penalties on death on your five minute window isn't going to cut it. The most either builds up is a level 3... all you're going to be doing in giving a steeper death penalty is make that log take longer. I'll also point out that the amount of overlap on the timestamp between the two is rather small comparitively. And while I'm having to fill in some gaps, I rather imagine those are the times that Kinsarmar even tried.
EDIT: @Jeremy wins the internet for the announce post
I aimed low because I know how mouth frothy the administration is about omg pkpkpkpkpk. I didn't want them to knee jerk shoot it down with "ah, that seems too long." 10-15 minutes would be better, as it would reward a 'good' strategic move and penalize what you guys did last night. I'm not sure I see that happening because people won't like being punished for being bad.
This thread was worth it for the admission of "I raid to grief people." I think that's worth it all.
The only time I get mouth frothy is early morning and late nights, when I get tired and I get that old man froth in the corner of my slack-jawed mouth.
As if anybody posting here has a right to a seat on the high horse saddle.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Comments
And yes, no novices were harmed during these events. One even had a friendly chat!
This is a bad example on your part.
The death penalties in LoL may be reduced when compared to other MOBAs, but they are definitely existent. Overextending on your own during the lategame and getting smashed can be a game-losing moment. Feeding early can lose you a game.
Hell, in LoL, you'd never corpserun a tower to death because it's an incredibly stupid thing to do that you only do when you're trolling. In Imperian, you can zerg a guard clot down fine with no consequences.
Also, I just got to say. If the shoe was on the other foot and Stavenn or Kinsarmar or somebody had swarmed your guards to death, you'd be raging. You know it, I know it, and everybody else knows it.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
An xp death penalty isn't relevant for anyone who actually pks. Assuming all you care about is not losing aspect (I assume this is the case for most pkers), you can die a huge number of times before even getting into the red. Most people kill more than they die, so it instantly becomes a non issue. Something like that wouldn't stop people from killing guards/taking risks. For instance, has this ever happened before? If the answer is yes it was evidently doable under the old death system. (Not a rhetorical question, I actually don't know but assume it has.)
I wasn't around for the superraid, but if four people cleared your guards/siege under any circumstances you did something catastrophically wrong. That's not posturing, just simple fact. You shouldn't be able to do that with or without zerging if guards/siege are set up correctly.
I am aware that shardwalls have changed the security game in quite a large way and I believe they should be looked at for this reason entirely.
First and foremost...this sums up AM beautifully: we tool advantage of it
Your pk enforcement (or lack thereof) is shoddy in the best of situations and is useless in a raid situation. The city really becomes a high difficulty bashing area. If I want to stop them, I'm giving 4-8 mouth breathing derps a reason to use me as a pinata of pk xp for the duration. Even if I 'win' the battle, the war isn't over until the hot pockets roll out of the microwave. God knows when that is going to happen. There is no reprieve from the raid. The only thing I can do is ctoff and hope some self righteous city leader doesn't faux Leonidas us into a larger pk pinata. As a player, I really have nothing to gain by defending. As a raider, I have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
-Step 2 Crime and punishment
That's a severe system, and really I would endorse that because the people we play with in this game are the sort of people you make arguments with a cattle prod and not reasonable arguments or systems.
A lighter system would be an increasing amount of time spent dead based on guard deaths per time. If a derp was dead for 3-5 minutes after losing twice, god. I'd be ecstatic.
-Step 3 Put skill back into raiding
Take raiding away from inside the city. Take raiding away from the guards themselves. The focus of the raid needs to be substantial. Let them steal shards. Let them steal the city's artifact. Let it be an ongoing capture the flag. Break into the vault and steal x, y, z. But for the love of god, give it a logical conclusion. De-incentive four hour camp fests. I hated them when I was a toolbox and did them. I hate them moreso that I watch them troll the crap out of other people.
Oh, how did I forget this. ******Read this*********
Have guard deaths remove the champion effect. Here's why. If I'm a champion and I die to a guard. I lose 0 experience. It's an xp buffer to side step your system. Fix plz.
God, no. Don't add PvP objectives to cities. Don't encourage this crap. A city should be a place of relative safety so that people have an option to not deal with this kind of crap.
If anything, turn the townes into fortresses and let people raid them. As it stands now, townes are 100% completely and utterly useless, so this might actually give them some purpose in the game.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
1ad ho·mi·nem
adjective \(ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem,This thread was worth it for the admission of "I raid to grief people." I think that's worth it all.