Death Changes

Jeremy Saunders

So we have done some of the death changes previously discussed. We will probably be adjusting things as we go along, so feel free to discuss issues here.

Keep in mind this is in preparation for a massive new Underworld which will be coming soon. I saw some people upset about not being able to go to the Underworld, but that will be coming back much better then before.

(should be an events post soon too)

Iniar

Can we make exits to Circle associated city/councils? Or is there a reason behind exits just to the city/townes you're associated with?

Selthis

Circle associated, rather than city associated would be rad.

Sarrius

Can we discuss the penalty here, too?

Lionas

Add passage to circle-aligned cities. As a Khandavan, I should also be able to request passage to Stavenn.

Will there be a refund offered for anchors?

EDIT: Wow, three posts with the same content all posted at the same time.

Iluv

One thing I am concerned about is that the damage bonus is negligible if you are fighting a pure affliction profession like Assassin or Renegade or a mana profession like Diabolist. Consider monolith battles. I am an assassin and I kill an Anti-Magicker. They can come back and go straight to stopping me from capturing with very little penalty. If I am an assassin and I die once, the jig is up. Not sure how we can address this imbalance at the current moment but it is something very important to think about.

Lionas

First thing that comes to mind is a decrease in skill rank (similar to a truedisfavour)

Iluv

I think skill rank decrease is too debilitating, what I am thinking is that mana damage should be increased as well and that curing balances should lengthen along with the damage bonus penalty.

Edit: When I say debilitating, I mean that I like how the current implementation does not affect your offensive output directly, and that you would not have to (for certain professions) completely alter how you fight when you come back due to missing crucial trans-skills.

Sarrius

A damage taken penalty is stupid. I'd have much rather we kept the old system and just done away with the coins and the one big raft, so Charon just gives people lifts back on separate little dingies because he's getting too old for this nonsense. I see no reason why we had to change the system so much, especially when you could have just made some lite fixes instead of overhauling the system to the point where we kill a Magick team and half of them have resurrected while we're finishing off their last man.

This system actively discourages re-engagements, meaning that first blood will give a huge advantage to the winning side. Once one team suffers the 25 or 50% damage penalty, that's it. It's done.

Azefel

Iluv said:

One thing I am concerned about is that the damage bonus is negligible if you are fighting a pure affliction profession like Assassin or Renegade or a mana profession like Diabolist.

if someone goes up to 75%+ penalty I'd just decay spam them as diab

also, trioxin/puncture is one the best damaging things in game

edit: this new thing isn't nice at encouraging people to PK. Make it like tiny obliviousness (priest) stacks instead, +10% dmg +0.05s herb bal per stack

edit2: I also want a refund on my anchor

Jeremy Saunders

I will make it more circle based.

As for time, if your whole group gets clobbered you generally had to wait longer then 3 minutes to get everyone back anyways. 3 minutes was the median time it took most people to get back to life.  

Let me think about the penalty some. 

I also kinda want to see how it all plays out for a couple days before we start over adjusting things (which I am more then open to).

Sarrius

The defense Jesse presented to me, which is more than reasonable, is that this new system allows you to get back in to playing the game faster. My problem with that defense is that it ignores the distinction made by the system's penalty: you can no longer engage in Player v. Player combat unless under extreme duress, because nobody should willingly accept +25% Damage (or higher) and expect to have a fair chance of winning. What other 'action' do you have to get back in to after death? Bashing? Not RPing in your city? The only time non-newbie players actually die is to each other or event mobiles - bashing is not precisely an ultimate risk.

So what does this really do besides actively discourage PKers from having fun for 3 minutes? It all strikes me as a very poor 'gimme' for people who complain about 'the zerg', etc. It isn't the right penalty. I don't even think we needed a penalty.

Old death required you to wait, while dead, to arrive in Dis and then focus or quest out.

New death requires you to wait a very small portion of time to come back to life, and then you must wait 2:40-3:00 for your penalty to wear off unless you want to be Captain Suicide.

Both of these scenarios ultimately restrict my 'action' the same amount of actual mechanical time.

Gurn

Sarrius said:

Both of these scenarios ultimately restrict my 'action' the same amount of actual mechanical time.

I'm pretty sure that's the point. This way, however, you can choose to run in faster, albiet with a greater risk of dying again.

Ahkan

Honestly, Sarrius' argument is sort of bad. It doesn't prevent re-engagement. It promotes 'smarter' re-engagement. "Get my entire team together. Go back for more." As opposed to, trickle in as we aryana out.

I understand his desire to keep the trickling in zerg method of pk. I think we can compromise with ye ol' zerg mentality with the following solution:

You pay Overall xp to be rezzed quicker. I'd honestly say 2.5% of a level. Then give this a timer of 5-10m. If you buy inside this window, you start increasing that amount. If it's -that- important to me to 'win' I can cash in some xp and go seize the day. It makes you sacrifice something to pk like a tard.

Sarrius

Gurn said:

Sarrius said:

Both of these scenarios ultimately restrict my 'action' the same amount of actual mechanical time.

I'm pretty sure that's the point. This way, however, you can choose to run in faster, albiet with a greater risk of dying again.

Yeah, and that 'greater risk' ultimately will discourage or minimize the purpose of re-engagement (i.e rallying your troops and coming in again). You will eat your 25% extra damage and you will explode in to gibs. Then you will be taking 50%. I'm not following how you find that acceptable.

Jeremy Saunders

Well. You can also be back in the real world, deffing up, getting supplies, and coordinating your attack for 2.5 minutes instead of waiting to get out of Dis, and then deffing up, getting supplies, and coordinating your attack.

Also not mentioned, this fixes a rather serious problem we had, newbies quitting because death was very confusing.

Lionas

My biggest concern at the moment is that with people coming back to life in 20 seconds, getting hearts and soulspears is going to suuuuuck.

Jeremy Saunders

Lionas said:

My biggest concern at the moment is that with people coming back to life in 20 seconds, getting hearts and soulspears is going to suuuuuck.

Hrm. If that is a problem, we will address it.

Lionas

Also decap. Getting a body, dropping it, decapping it... 20 seconds is up, they're back alive, and I can't put more head in my trophy case. #fwp

Gurn

I find it acceptable because of this:

Timeline:

Old Death

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Die                                                 Get to Dis                                                      Come Back

New Death

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Die                 Come Back                                                                                  No Handicap




See how you come back a lot faster, but there's just a higher risk in coming back? If you want to fight old-style, go for it. Wait the same amount of time as you would before. No one's stopping you from doing that. However, if someone wants to run a higher risk for a potentially higher reward, they can run back into combat immediately.

Basically, new death has done nothing except give us more options.

Septus

My only real concern with this is the aryana obelisk, primarily in obelisk battles (no need to re powercall, your opposition is going to be back in the melee before it even ends reallistically). Might be worth making it so you can't Aryana back if the location is on an island (or preferably, if the locations on an island currently  engaged in an obelisk battle not to mess with bashers).

Jeremy Saunders

Keep in mind that is only PvP too. PvE suffers no penalty, you can get back to playing.

Jeremy Saunders

Septus said:

My only real concern with this is the aryana obelisk, primarily in obelisk battles (no need to re powercall, your opposition is going to be back in the melee before it even ends reallistically). Might be worth making it so you can't Aryana back if the location is on an island (or preferably, if the locations on an island currently  engaged in an obelisk battle not to mess with bashers).

Yeah. We will definitely be monitoring this and tweaking as needed.

Jeremy Saunders

Okay, we are going to make the following changes.

1. Corpses stick around for 10 minutes even if the player is back to life. 

2. Players that are rezzed by another player, do not have the debuff (they can get right back to it)

3. Players can be rezzed as long as they have not left the room with Charon.

Lionas

More comments that don't matter:

Previously, having an anchor meant I could die quickly, collect coins for people that are slow, and get us out sooner. An individual having an anchor is helpful. Now, it's all or nothing -- either everyone on your team has an anchor and you can get back into the fray in 90s, or they don't, and you're stuck waiting the full time. There's still some wiggle room and tactics in whether to wait for the rest of the team to have their debuffs wear off, but it definitely reduces the individual value of the anchor.

Iniar

Septus said:

My only real concern with this is the aryana obelisk, primarily in obelisk battles (no need to re powercall, your opposition is going to be back in the melee before it even ends reallistically). Might be worth making it so you can't Aryana back if the location is on an island (or preferably, if the locations on an island currently  engaged in an obelisk battle not to mess with bashers).

I'd also prefer it not to be the -same- room. Same area, sure. Or at the minimum, make sure the announce message of the player's entry is something I can trigger easily (ie. minimal variation). ( So I can make it blink excessively. )

Gurn

Another concern-- As I understand it(please correct me if I'm wrong), PK experience diminishes and/or pretty much goes away if you kill people repeatedly over a small period of time.

Given this much quicker ressurection, will this change in PK experience per death in a short window change at all?

Apoloc

Yeah this was off-topic. 

Jeremy Saunders

Gurn said:

Another concern-- As I understand it(please correct me if I'm wrong), PK experience diminishes and/or pretty much goes away if you kill people repeatedly over a small period of time.

Given this much quicker ressurection, will this change in PK experience per death in a short window change at all?

No plan on changing that. But I will keep an eye on it now.

Ahkan

Should put in a system to deal with city raids.

-Guard deaths trigger the damage malus

-Damage malus applies to guards

-Increased xp loss? Scaling increased xp loss?

Azefel

can't submerge corpses in the spring anymore, I want my terrible source of devotion back