Previously, having an anchor meant I could die quickly, collect coins for people that are slow, and get us out sooner. An individual having an anchor is helpful. Now, it's all or nothing -- either everyone on your team has an anchor and you can get back into the fray in 90s, or they don't, and you're stuck waiting the full time. There's still some wiggle room and tactics in whether to wait for the rest of the team to have their debuffs wear off, but it definitely reduces the individual value of the anchor.
If anybody on your team was getting coins to use the ferry instead of just using Nyrroth immediately, you were Doing It Wrong.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
One thing I'd kind of like to see is something like "After stacking the death debuff up to X level, you start taking a longer amount of time to come back."
With death meaning absolutely nothing now, there's nothing preventing you from just charging into battle every 20 seconds with a massive +damage penalty just to be a dick or to prevent somebody from capping an obstacle or the like. I had a monolith battle of Khizan/Aulani v Azefel/Septus go on for like 2-2.5 hours one night with the old system of death, until we barely managed to scrape through a capture when Septus had the bright idea to go WD instead of staying monk.
With the current system, that would be basically impossible, because long as he's willing to die every 20 seconds, he can just keep smashing himself into us and breaking the capture over and over and over, because he loses nothing for doing it. So, basically, in that case, the winner of the monolith is basically the one who gets tired of that crap the last.
Once your debuff hits 100% or so, I think you should eat a few minutes of timeout before coming back out with your penalty, because I feel safe in saying that anybody who's running back into combat with that kind of penalty is almost certainly just doing it as delaying tactics.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
It was totally bugged then, because it wasn't taking any.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
So I'm probably going to hate myself for tossing this out there before I've killed all the boss mobs, but the Aryana obelisk makes fighting boss mobs a little silly. A group of 4-5 of us, with a few of us not even level 85 yet were able to zerg Shayor last night (the deathsight log was a combination of hilarious and a little angering if you weren't us due to spam). While I like having the nice, shiny honours, I don't think this is really how you are supposed to make this happen?
So I'm probably going to hate myself for tossing this out there before I've killed all the boss mobs, but the Aryana obelisk makes fighting boss mobs a little silly. A group of 4-5 of us, with a few of us not even level 85 yet were able to zerg Shayor last night (the deathsight log was a combination of hilarious and a little angering if you weren't us due to spam). While I like having the nice, shiny honours, I don't think this is really how you are supposed to make this happen?
I feel like that says more about basilisk ress than it does the Aryana Obelisk? Especially since you don't have any penalties? Though, it sounds like this is becoming a non-issue after the classleads?
I don't know... to be honest, I'm not crazy about the increased damage penalty, while I get the need for it... especially for anyone without the zerg potential of AM... in some ways it really changed the dynamic of shard falls and the like in a way I'm not sure I am a huge fan of, and I think I'd say the same towards boss mobs. Even without the Aryana obelisk, I felt like I had a chance to re-enter a fight or help better people be re-entering a fight by pre-grabbing coins or something like that. And I could get out pretty dang fast by just using the imp and pixie and Dillinger... Now, it's pretty much a forced wait period where you can def up a bit, but can't really do anything else to help... I'm not crazy about it, I don't really have a better solution, so I haven't voiced my opinion because saying, "I disagree" is pretty counterproductive on it's own. But I think I'd prefer a change to the Aryana instead of seeing the damage increase expanded to include boss mobs? So I could at least try to book it back to help my team?
Eh, the damage increase on boss mobs is sort of silly. The big thing that screws up boss mobs is that the bosses health does not reset upon a party wipe(s). This leads to
-AM zerging it
-Magick abusing basilisk rezz
At the end of the day, the thing is do you want killing that boss to mean something? If you don't, who cares. If you do? Then fix the system so the achievement means something. Administrative decision required.
The damage penalty makes sense in pvp. In theory, it reduces the cooldown between fights. In practice, it probably won't because the zerg will keep zerging because it works. Tbh, there needs to be an associated damage output malus so that you can't roll into combat doing 100-400 damage (because that's what matters in team fights). The combat mentality has pretty much been the water faucet methodology. It needs to require more braincells than that, and the death penalties are a good start in that direction.
The damage penalty is dumb. I have given myself a few days to think on it and still cannot bring myself to like it. I'd still rather old death. The trip back, maybe not the coin gathering, separate rafts per player.. I feel like I'd rather that than what we have now (cue somebody chiming in that I only like it that way because it 'favors the zerg')
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Having fought a majority of the new boss mobs, most kill faster than a single Hunter can rez. The ones that dont usually have room-wide stuff that kills players that are off-eq for too long to respond. Only time I've found rez that practical was against bosses that only a single person was failing to respond appropriately to and were dying repeatedly. That said, zerging bosses obviously still takes plenty of time, some bosses can't be done without a large group, getting a large enough group is next to impossible most of the time, and there is still no mechanic in place to prevent other people Kryssing you 30 minutes into a long battle, so I don't really begrudge AM making it work however they can.
@Sarrius Old death was awesome from rp standpoint and terrible from a mechanical stand point. Double rezz bottleneck? Yep. Time to rezz added for no reason at all (wait for boat, wait for charon, wait for quests, wait for quest items? Yep. Able to be bypassed by a stupid obelisks the conferred e a huge tactical advantage? Yep. I can see how you would remember it, since you're an Aryana addict. The new death system forces you to make a tactical decision. "Am I good enough to kill this team before they can capitalize on my damage malus?" Up until now, there's been little to no decision making going on in shardfall combat. Follow me. Hit my target. I understand why you don't like it. The damage penalty is sort of inhibitory to your play style. Life is hard. Suck it up and take it for the team.
@Dicene You mean like "understand boss encounter so you don't die?" That's the fastest way to beat them. Then people don't die and then you don't have to rezz them. We killed all but one boss with six people (two of whom were less than level 90). Everybody wins! In lieu of 'learning' you can just spam rezz/zerg it. Different strokes for different folks.
So AM is getting inside Kinsarmar, dying and focusing Aryana to reach the same spot in Kinsarmar continuously. Can we please fix this? Cities? They need to be excluded.
Even without the Aryana obelisk, I felt like I had a chance to re-enter a fight or help better people be re-entering a fight by pre-grabbing coins or something like that. And I could get out pretty dang fast by just using the imp and pixie and Dillinger... Now, it's pretty much a forced wait period where you can def up a bit, but can't really do anything else to help... I'm not crazy about it
A major problem with the old system was that one of the absolute best things you could do in a shardfall situation or such would be to kill your own newbies and send them down to Dis to break/monopolize all the quests they could and to keep the ferry off the dock while your team relies on Obelisked Aryana.
The idea of Dis Control as a deciding mechanic is fundamentally flawed. "Help us win this shardfall/obelisk/etc by... dying and not fighting with us! Just go sit there and break the dillinger quest over and over please." I would also like to see the death penalty include offensive negatives. Specifically, I think it would best be implemented as, say, -15% damage and +10% to balance/eq costs per level, so it's less "I'm going to hurl myself into the fight, hit them like an artifact truck, and then die and repeat. 25% more damage taken? Khizan's still one of the tankiest people in Magick. +25% damage taken, +10% balance costs, -15% damage?
Now I'm not only squishier than normal, but I have less impact and another death will set me back a lot more, because
then my damage will be neutered and I'll be heavily encouraged to let it drop. And, right now? Most of the primary targets on my team have the anchor. Most of the little ones don't. But who cares about them? So I'll wait 90s and go with the lower half of my team at a penalty, because they're either not a primary target or so squishy that the debuff is essentially meaningless to them because they can't stand up to focus fire even with no penalty at all. So, since they're always at 100% offensive capability, who cares about their debuff? 350 health Mage is dead as soon as they're targeted anyways.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
@Dicene Shayor took us maybe 15-30 minutes... and that was with me only getting in two hits per life. For (what I understand as truth anyway) the second hardest wraith lord, that's not too bad. (which by the way, am I the first one to pick up on the fact that Irqua, who I understand to be the hardest wraith, completely just wields the Rabbit of Caerbannog to win?)
@Sarrius@Ahkan You're right that it requires more thought, and generally, I'd say this is a good thing. My frustrations over this stem from the following scenario: a shard fall for me looks like hostaging a couple of white knights, distracting and annoying people long enough for some of the better AM players to get in their stuff in kill a couple of people, then I die... right now, after the malus, most druids can one cycle of my balance kill me... which makes going back in just unfun. Before I could go in way too many times due to the Aryana Obelisk. I think what I'd prefer is the death timer last a bit longer than it currently does... something akin to how long it was to fall and then ride the raft back out, without the bottleneck problems or having to collect coins (make it 1-2 minutes?) and the Aryana obelisk entirely re-purposed to something not affecting my respawn timer/location. That way you can't have a zerg rush that overwhelmingly outnumbers the other two circles, and death lasts a little bit longer so that it still stings. This nullifies the boss zerg issue... means I can go back into a shardfall a couple of times, and so can everyone else at the same rate, without being a silly high amount... etc.
On a side note, the other thing I am a little worried about now are how this is going to affect the drawn out obelisk battles? That could involve some pretty crazy maluses.
That would be the idea. Try to fight intelligently and 'not die' 18 times to win. Sure, you'd sacrifice quantity of pvp, but the quality would improve.
@Ziat: Wall the room. Put 100 guards in that room.
Yeah, we really have to change the Aryana obelisk... Brishi had it pretty well orchestrated with a threadtrap that was pretty hard to stop us. It's way to easy too zerg with how Aryana currently is.
It's like I'm a prophet or something. Potshots, potshots everywhere. Do you ever write a post without thinly veiled insults and hostility? Shit gets old, dude.
The system penalizes returning to the action while the implementers strictly insist the point was to increase your ability to return to said action. All the issues you raise with death could have been fixed by simply doing away with those poor elements.
Instead we have this death penalty and you folks are proposing a steeper one? I am so confused. There is no real decisionmaking or intelligence being flaunted or promoted here: going back in with a penalty means you die faster. This further penalizes squishy classes, affliction classes, etc. Going back in with a damage taken penalty on level one is closing in on 'permanent' sensitivity. This isn't smart.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Pardon double post: please just rewrite the Aryana concept to something that doesn't have to do with the death system. It's always gonna be an issue.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
There is no real decisionmaking or intelligence being flaunted or promoted here: going back in with a penalty means you die faster.
Or you decide to go back early because your numbers have increased, or you have additional situational awareness (because now you know who is there and how to handle it), or any number of other things that allow you to win despite having the malus.
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
There really isn't an argument in this thread that invalidates a rezz malus. Most MMO's have a death/rezz penalty. Most of these mechanics also stack upon multiple deaths. Games in other genres have respawn timers that increase upon sequential deaths. Take LoL, for example. The higher level/farther into the game, the longer the respawn timer. Pick your reason, but it's an important mechanic in the game. Since people didn't want a respawn timer, they compromised and gave you a respawn malus. Like Lionas said, the way the zerg play the game, you can actually play around it because you're still 100% spam-o-tron effective (Which, I still think there needs to be a damage outpust malus). All of these mechanics all restrict the same methods of play to increase the overall enjoyment and quality of the product. You could further extend this as to why WoW bosses reset when you wipe so Magick and AM can't newbie faceroll through an encounter that was supposed to be unique and require problem solving.
Nothing anyone said in this thread covers AM abusing rezz to gank guards and be tools. Most of that line of thought is focused on increasing penalties for guard death.
Comments
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
One thing I'd kind of like to see is something like "After stacking the death debuff up to X level, you start taking a longer amount of time to come back."
With death meaning absolutely nothing now, there's nothing preventing you from just charging into battle every 20 seconds with a massive +damage penalty just to be a dick or to prevent somebody from capping an obstacle or the like. I had a monolith battle of Khizan/Aulani v Azefel/Septus go on for like 2-2.5 hours one night with the old system of death, until we barely managed to scrape through a capture when Septus had the bright idea to go WD instead of staying monk.
With the current system, that would be basically impossible, because long as he's willing to die every 20 seconds, he can just keep smashing himself into us and breaking the capture over and over and over, because he loses nothing for doing it. So, basically, in that case, the winner of the monolith is basically the one who gets tired of that crap the last.
Once your debuff hits 100% or so, I think you should eat a few minutes of timeout before coming back out with your penalty, because I feel safe in saying that anybody who's running back into combat with that kind of penalty is almost certainly just doing it as delaying tactics.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Nyrroth stopped taking xp after the changes to xp loss pretty sure.
Could we also get whodead to show people in the death room as well?
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
At the end of the day, the thing is do you want killing that boss to mean something? If you don't, who cares. If you do? Then fix the system so the achievement means something. Administrative decision required.
The damage penalty makes sense in pvp. In theory, it reduces the cooldown between fights. In practice, it probably won't because the zerg will keep zerging because it works. Tbh, there needs to be an associated damage output malus so that you can't roll into combat doing 100-400 damage (because that's what matters in team fights). The combat mentality has pretty much been the water faucet methodology. It needs to require more braincells than that, and the death penalties are a good start in that direction.
@Dicene You mean like "understand boss encounter so you don't die?" That's the fastest way to beat them. Then people don't die and then you don't have to rezz them. We killed all but one boss with six people (two of whom were less than level 90). Everybody wins! In lieu of 'learning' you can just spam rezz/zerg it. Different strokes for different folks.
A major problem with the old system was that one of the absolute best things you could do in a shardfall situation or such would be to kill your own newbies and send them down to Dis to break/monopolize all the quests they could and to keep the ferry off the dock while your team relies on Obelisked Aryana.
The idea of Dis Control as a deciding mechanic is fundamentally flawed. "Help us win this shardfall/obelisk/etc by... dying and not fighting with us! Just go sit there and break the dillinger quest over and over please."
I would also like to see the death penalty include offensive negatives. Specifically, I think it would best be implemented as, say, -15% damage and +10% to balance/eq costs per level, so it's less "I'm going to hurl myself into the fight, hit them like an artifact truck, and then die and repeat. 25% more damage taken? Khizan's still one of the tankiest people in Magick. +25% damage taken, +10% balance costs, -15% damage?
Now I'm not only squishier than normal, but I have less impact and another death will set me back a lot more, because
then my damage will be neutered and I'll be heavily encouraged to let it drop. And, right now? Most of the primary targets on my team have the anchor. Most of the little ones don't. But who cares about them? So I'll wait 90s and go with the lower half of my team at a penalty, because they're either not a primary target or so squishy that the debuff is essentially meaningless to them because they can't stand up to focus fire even with no penalty at all. So, since they're always at 100% offensive capability, who cares about their debuff? 350 health Mage is dead as soon as they're targeted anyways.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
The system penalizes returning to the action while the implementers strictly insist the point was to increase your ability to return to said action. All the issues you raise with death could have been fixed by simply doing away with those poor elements.
Instead we have this death penalty and you folks are proposing a steeper one? I am so confused. There is no real decisionmaking or intelligence being flaunted or promoted here: going back in with a penalty means you die faster. This further penalizes squishy classes, affliction classes, etc. Going back in with a damage taken penalty on level one is closing in on 'permanent' sensitivity. This isn't smart.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created