Skip to content

Classlead Hashout Late 2013

15681011

Comments

  • Ozreas - honestly 52 and 55 both. I applaud you, good sir.
  • Kryss said:
    For Hunter, you already can't trigger off metrazol or ciguatoxin. And since ciguatoxin is likely having its effect rebalanced, there seems little reason to remove these afflictions from being able to be clawed as well, especially since that just means its time go grab a handaxe. In Conjunction with Classlead 29, Hunter will be no longer able to force you to fire a trigger you have through just giving majorly debilitating high priority afflictions.
    Spot texting is just sad. You shouldn't do it. This is also a huge (deliberate) understatement to preserve a golden egg.
  • MathiausMathiaus Pennsylvania

    Been trying to think of a creative way to tone down beastbane against bard. So far, the only bad idea I can think of is that the sketch will have 50% immunity if inked with a certain ink. When instant kantae goes, I'll have practically no other way to kill the Warden unless I manage to get lucky with a channeled Kantae, or that they don't have a monstrous amount of health and that a shaite rubait combo would be enough to kill them. Just ripping out sketch after sketch to counter it as well is very costly and would hinder me in the long run.

    Any constructive critism on the thought?

    image
  • Your class doesn't need more security for its nonsense, it needs less. I feel no sympathy that one skill out of the 400+ in Imperian can instantly kill your sketches. The rest of the game has to suffer the way Bard exists as is. I know you have some kind of severe white knight complex about the class, but none of that truthfully holds water while you consider to use it. More classes need Beastbane.

    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • MathiausMathiaus Pennsylvania
    Sarrius said:
    Your class doesn't need more security for its nonsense, it needs less. I feel no sympathy that one skill out of the 400+ in Imperian can instantly kill your sketches. The rest of the game has to suffer the way Bard exists as is. I know you have some kind of severe white knight complex about the class, but none of that truthfully holds water while you consider to use it. More classes need Beastbane.


    Bard isn't going to be as powerful as you make it out to be. Those without artifacts will almost become practically useless with the class. It's been argued before that certain abilities shouldn't shut out someone's offense completely with a touch of a button. You have some kind of severe Mathiaus/Bard complex and have it out for me instead of appealing to a general perspective and seeing that this will be an issue for any bard after classleads.
    image
  • Your class is toxic to gameplay, and also contradictory to the principles laid out in the last few years in terms of game design. It needs a rework. Until then, you need to turn knobs. None of your classleads do anything to make the class any less powerful. When I get the numbers on Chi note, I will just submit reports that do something besides obfuscate the issue any further. It's become very clear you don't know what you are talking about.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • If certain abilities shouldn't shut out someone's offense with the touch of a button, why does bard center around mechanics that do pretty much that?  Even with your candy coated classleads and inability to see any issue with resonance, bard is still very silly.
    Today we shall die.
  • To be fair, it shuts out one aspect of your offense.  You don't go from 100 to 0 without sketches. You go from 100 to 60-50.  There are still other aspects of your offense that survive that you can use to put the warden on the backfoot before you bring out your sketches again. Its a matter of strategizing by class rather than having a flowchart that works for every class exactly the same.
  • MathiausMathiaus Pennsylvania
    Selthis said:
    To be fair, it shuts out one aspect of your offense.  You don't go from 100 to 0 without sketches. You go from 100 to 60-50.  There are still other aspects of your offense that survive that you can use to put the warden on the backfoot before you bring out your sketches again. Its a matter of strategizing by class rather than having a flowchart that works for every class exactly the same.


    True enough, which is why I suggested the channeled kantae and shaite rubait damage route being a possibility from this. There are very few people in Imperian who fight current bard very well and hold their own. After certain aspects change, I know it'll make it greatly reduced to build on afflictions, especially since the masked part was the main reason why people couldn't keep up on curing them. Not many people fight Bard 1v1 and know what is exactly killing them. People just hear others scream "Resonance!" and assume it's that.

     

    Linslet said:
    If certain abilities shouldn't shut out someone's offense with the touch of a button, why does bard center around mechanics that do pretty much that?  Even with your candy coated classleads and inability to see any issue with resonance, bard is still very silly.

     

    Knife sigils used to cut off channels for mages, which has changed. Disharmony used to kill vibes, which has changed. Lamia's Call? Sure, I can see where this could be a burden to someone relying heavily on their ents to do their job. Bedazzlement Revelation, Dissonance, and Lullaby are generic enough they don't shut off people's stuff. Chamine is so random it isn't as reliable and can't pinpoint certain things you want rid of. I can't think of anything else that would be even considered shutting down another's offense entirely as you're suggesting.

    image
  • edited September 2013
    What's killing players is resonance - the absurd bonuses on Chi and Ta being the primary culprit here. 'I hit you and go faster because of it, so I can hit you faster and then hit you faster' is definitely not a fair mechanic whatsoever. Especially not in a kit that spams stuns, double afflictions (even masked ones), and has a passive offense in the form of bound songs and separate balance sketch attacks.

    You are trying to justify a downgrade to Beastbane with other skills that were never really meant to exist, but were created because of poor insight in to game design. Two wrongs do not equal a right.

    EDIT: Also, can we not have the hairsplitting/semantics struggle of 'resonance does nothing by itself' - resonance is the nitro fuel you pour in your Bardic gastank to drive your stunaffliction NASCAR all over blind pedestrians. Claiming it does nothing on its own is an incredibly disingenuous statement - perhaps to preserve how powerful Bard, perhaps not, but it really is.
    EDIT2: To reiterate my argument two days ago: the skills are overpowered in part because of resonance - NOT the other way around.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • Bards are clearly the most lopsided mechanic in the game. You're not going to fix bards in class leads. You're not going to 'fix' most of the large problems through the class lead system.

    @Mathiaus Losing sketches would not do anything to your offense except make me diagnose less. You can still Wrecking ball your way to 1,2,3 you're dead. Omg, it wasn't insta. Nothing you're suggesting changes that underlying mechanic. You're treating symptoms, not the cause of the disease.

    @Sarrius We get it. You hate bards. While you're pointing that finger at mean ol' Mathiaus (who is really just a modern version of cruel lament Sarrius) try to point four of them back at your own classes.

    We also need to get the proper definition of the word toxic up in here. Using it all sorts of wrong.
  • Ahkan said:
    @Sarrius We get it. You hate bards. While you're pointing that finger at mean ol' Mathiaus (who is really just a modern version of cruel lament Sarrius) try to point four of them back at your own classes.
    Sure, just need to do Magick's share of the work for them first. Just let me get right on that. You're already writing for the biggest issues, so I'm not really feeling that rushed.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • MathiausMathiaus Pennsylvania

    1. Myried needs to become uncombable, making it lose it's usefullness in combat. Stun solved since it'd hurt the bard more using it.

    2. Bard has no way to hinder curing, aka hemotoxin, impatience, etc. None. We only dissapate deafness, which allows strychnine to hit off the bat.

    3. The double affliction without mask will be more curable. Take notes from 2 as to why.

    You keep pushing this as an argumement, all of you, when you don't fight me one on one often enough to know or even play as the class. Current bard sucks, hence why resonance is the obvious culprit to you guys right now. Without diadem, Chi helps the bards who need that push to even attempt to get afflictions stacked. I can agree with diadem, it pushes it since it makes it less than 2 seconds. It honestly should cap out at 2 seconds flat or 2.25, not under it. So probably just boost balance time on nuarinyu and/or chi cap.

    I know it's hard for most of you, but you can offer advice without insult.

    image
  • AhkanAhkan Texas
    edited September 2013
    1) You're not an affliction class. If someone told you that, they lied. Yell at them.

    2) See 1. Also, stun prevents healing, last I checked. 

    3) You're still not really an affliction class. It doesn't matter what's between a and f. F is for fatal.

    You need to stop being defensive and take your fingers out of your ears. To kill as bard you need resonance. If you don't get resonance you don't kill. How do you cure resonance? You avoid the bard for 1-2 minutes. This mechanic sucks and thus the class built around it sucks. We're all sort of agreeing on the same topic, bard sucks.  The only problem is we're not the people who matter. Your class leads haven't addressed resonance at all. You won't even acknowledge that it's a problem. 

  • Ahkan said:
    We also need to get the proper definition of the word toxic up in here. Using it all sorts of wrong.
    Yeah. Everyone knows I'm the toxic one.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • edited September 2013
    Mathiaus said:
    fight me one on one
    Ah, yes, the "Fight me IRL" and "Do you even lift" of Imperian.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • MathiausMathiaus Pennsylvania

    Again, why does resonance help the bard? It boosts nuariyu. I never use stun, and even when others do, when the classlead for myried goes through, they won't be able to build resonance on stun, makng it worthless to them to use, especially with the cool down it already has. I don't know what bard is around still that spams stun like mad, but it sure the hell isn't me.

    By changing how the double afflict works, you ultimately change how the bard hinders you and how you cure, especially with not needing to diagnose and waste balance. If the bard can't hinder you, you are able to attack back. If you're attacking properly, the afflictions or whatever else you're using should be enough of a counter to the bard's momentum and allow you to build your own offense.

    Since Cruel Lament damage builds off of afflictions for the intial burst damage, along with numerous voice attacks containing some form of afflicting, there is some type of afflicting the bard has to do, especially since going for straight damage alone is slower since damage voice words take a longer balance.

    I'd like to point out limb breaks follow a method of something you can't cure while it builds, and I am well aware it gets cured 6 seconds from it's peak, but having to build that momentum then unleash the damage or instant kill method upon the peak is the same basic setup. Difference for these is that for limb breaks you can't do anything till its healed during that time, while when resonance peaks you can still attack fine. The bard still then needs to use nuarinyu to afflict enough to build it to the point where it's sufficient to burst damage you with Cruel Lament, else the dps (especially on higher healthed targets) isn't substantial enough to get to the point of death.

    image

  • Mathiaus said:

     for limb breaks you can't do anything till its healed

    image
  • MathiausMathiaus Pennsylvania
    Azefel said:

    Mathiaus said:

     for limb breaks you can't do anything till its healed

    image

    From what I knew, when you are prone with leg breaks, and even broken arms, the only thing you can send out is mind paralysis. I'm sure there are other weird things that can be sent, but offensive wise, I didn't think there could. Am I missing out on doing something while curing limbs and being prone?
    image
  • So, since it hasn't been submitted, I'm going to nag about classlead 63. First off, I think limiting binds/entangles to one per target is a huge step in the right direction. The problem here is that this is really one of the more disingenuous reports I've seen this round. AM has the most writhes and has the most unique writhes. Some of your classes even have access to 2,3, even 4 types of writhing. It doesn't help that AM is chock full of synergism on prone targets. Then you made some attempt to balance the scales by offering the least used and least useful writhe affliction in your arsenal? Really?

    Why don't drop the forms of writhe a warden/ansheri can dishout from say...4 to a mediocre one?

    Since you're chomping at the bit to remove offenses that are 100% about lock down, wouldn't transfix have made a better choice? I mean, I understand why you kept it, it's like ciguatoxin/hemotoxin in one affliction.

    Pindart needs another visit from the nerf fairy. Not combo-able. Enough said.

    The problem is actually larger than this. Why do these classes -need- these abilities? You could almost argue that they did, back in the dark ages of Imperian where AM was toned up a notch because none of them could cure and they needed to settle fights quick and dirty or not at all. That isn't the case anymore. Everyone heals incredibly well and you really don't need  access to alternating forms of CC to survive white knight combat. This "we don't want to delete skills" rule is just bad in a case like this. There's really no justification for one class to have access to more than one form of writhe. These classes don't even need these abilities to do well in combat. Why not just delete them and move on? 

    Also, I think it's safe to say that "prone" is a pretty negligible requirement as far as combat is concerned, both in teams and white knight. Most classes that have access to these also have access to the skills that set them up.

    Any 3rd party entity that can web on a player's demand needs to be straight up, outright deleted. You want to web? Tattoos. After that, every class in every circle may be able to make the case to have one, and only one, form of writhe (this allows for joust/impale). I'd honestly even go so far as to say we need to remove some forms of writhe from a few classes (assassin, renegade comes to mind). They do enough face mauling without relying on traps, transfix, entangle.

    Tl/Dr: If you're going to take on the "writhes are dumb" please man up and do it right.
  • Mathiaus, you can't counter a Bard's momentum, they simply have too much of it. Consider that in just a single round you've given confusion and two masked afflictions. Now add in passive song hits from Thespia. Now add in passive chills and disruption. Now add in resonance effects. Now add in the fact that Bard writhes faster and has passive healing. There is just no way to gain momentum over all of that.

    Now, whilst Bard is so badly off that is beyond the scope of Classleads really, it can still at least hopefully be made a little more tolerable with intelligent balance fixes that will make it better for both the user of the one fighting against it, at least until some sort of remake can be done.

  • MathiausMathiaus Pennsylvania
    edited September 2013
    Kryss said:
    Mathiaus, you can't counter a Bard's momentum, they simply have too much of it. Consider that in just a single round you've given confusion and two masked afflictions. Now add in passive song hits from Thespia. Now add in passive chills and disruption. Now add in resonance effects. Now add in the fact that Bard writhes faster and has passive healing. There is just no way to gain momentum over all of that.

    Now, whilst Bard is so badly off that is beyond the scope of Classleads really, it can still at least hopefully be made a little more tolerable with intelligent balance fixes that will make it better for both the user of the one fighting against it, at least until some sort of remake can be done.

    Masked afflicting addressed in classlead.

    Disruption only happens when they have confusion. If they have confusion higher on their priority list when fighting a bard, it won't be as much of an issue.

    Bedazzlement is every 14 seconds. It's quite a bit of time, meaning it hits 4 times every minute, and only during that tick if they happen to have certain parameters met.

    By resonance effects, I'm assuming you mean mostly Ta and Chi. Chi I can see being an issue once fully attuned actually making Ta's double afflict harder to deal with, so it's simple to just tone down Chi then. Last I saw, Sarrius was doing a classlead on this.

    Again, the list for Nuarinyu: anorexia, chill, claustrophobia, dizziness, nausea, or stupidity.  Since I have no way of stopping salves, purge, focus, or tree, anorexia gets cured pretty quick. Chill, if left unsupervised, I'm sure could be a hinderance. Stupidity is the biggest one I see out of all of that that seems to be the most hindering out of all of those, and masked helped it greatly. By unmasking it, I can see everyone curing it no time flat, unless of course it gets that 1/6 chance to be paired with claustrophiba to inhibit orphine, leaving purge, focus, and tree to cure stupidity.

    So I'm clear, I'm not trying to keep this class the way it is, I want it revamped too. I just feel the hate towards the class over the years has boiled down to everyone trying to smash it into a thousand pieces and not caring how it's done.

    image
  • I think its worth noting at this point that it isn't what you're doing as a bard, @Mathiaus. It is the class in general.

    I have absolutely no problem admitting if I was playing a bard (I'd never play a bard) that I would use instant Kantae and all the other nonsensical things bards can do, because they're what the class has at its disposal. Saying "I don't use it in that way so it isn't an issue" however isn't an excuse for it to be that way.

    Resonance is the problem because there is absolutely nothing you can do about it short of running. Limb damage does have measures you can take against it despite what people might tell you (Azefel regularly makes me want to throw my keyboard out the nearest window when he ruins my painstaking prep through his parry sorcery). The closest comparrison I can draw to resonance is vodun (although resonance is probably less extreme), in that its "you shall fight me while I build my offense that remains the same regardless of how you react to me short of running away, then you shall die". Again, going to reiterate: this isn't about how you're playing the class or about how anyone who is currently bard is playing the class. It is a general discontent with the mechanics that drive how it works for being not fun.

     

  • MathiausMathiaus Pennsylvania
    edited September 2013
    Septus said:

    I think its worth noting at this point that it isn't what you're doing as a bard, @Mathiaus. It is the class in general.

    I have absolutely no problem admitting if I was playing a bard (I'd never play a bard) that I would use instant Kantae and all the other nonsensical things bards can do, because they're what the class has at its disposal. Saying "I don't use it in that way so it isn't an issue" however isn't an excuse for it to be that way.

    Resonance is the problem because there is absolutely nothing you can do about it short of running. Limb damage does have measures you can take against it despite what people might tell you (Azefel regularly makes me want to throw my keyboard out the nearest window when he ruins my painstaking prep through his parry sorcery). The closest comparrison I can draw to resonance is vodun (although resonance is probably less extreme), in that its "you shall fight me while I build my offense that remains the same regardless of how you react to me short of running away, then you shall die". Again, going to reiterate: this isn't about how you're playing the class or about how anyone who is currently bard is playing the class. It is a general discontent with the mechanics that drive how it works for being not fun.

     


    Psychologically, that's understandable. I could see the frustration toward something you can't cure and pointing a finger at it like it's the root of the problem. Even though Wytch has stuff you can't cure normally either, Bard is the hate flavour of the month and everyone likes being in a bandwagon. They're quite spacey.

    I guess all I'm trying to do at this point is show that certain aspects of the classleads I submitted will actually have an impact on the class until it is revamped, and so far I've only felt a couple people who've been on my side about this. Oddly enough as well, I had a couple people complain that it was too much done to the class.

    image
  • It's funny you're mentioning wytchen. I'm writing a classlead to remove the marks off of the target.

    That being said, the effects aren't game changing and they don't make sense being placed on the target. None of the effects of marks are remotely similar to Resonance, primarily because for their awesome effects to turn on, you have to have 5 afflictions from curses (and only curses). The cool thing about these is that you can cure them and stop me from getting the 'perks'.
  • AzefelAzefel Singapore
    edited September 2013
    the idea of pinning someone down with a dart is kind of retarded
  • Well...

    image
  • On report 63, it had a ton of nonsense on it before I shortened everything in it for brevity - namely, mentioning the fact that Ranger has 3-4 types of writhes, etc. I didn't support it because it is a work in progress. One writhe per person was brought up by Selthis when he gave me input, and the discussion was a mixed review. Also, I would not call Bind the 'least used writhe' in our arsenal - that goes to Pinshot and Kanai's Entangle. When I was a Wardancer, I used bind on every pommelwhip target within 10 miles of me. I offered it up as part of the solution, not the entire solution.

    Something something jumping the gun something something.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • except that wouldn't fit into Mathiaus' super realistic immersive RP setting because those wouldn't fit in your wrist sheath.
  • Are we going into realism here? Problem is how accurate Sarrius is throwing those into a 20-man melee and hitting his target every time with enough force to keep them in the ground for the next 3 seconds. Also, aren't those things generally banned in most places because of how often people accidentally impale their family members with those after a beer or three?

    I don't know all the specifics of Threadtrap, but I know enough to say it needs a classlead. Someone make it less impossible to get away from if the pred is actually paying attention?
    image
Sign In or Register to comment.