Also : Scar needs some work. It needs to be uncurable if the head is mangled. It would also be nice if it worked with flintlight or did a little bit of limb damage so you could break with it. Anything to stop the parade of ents.
1) Scar. type "autocuring priority list" Find scar. Find all the salve afflictions that are higher tier than scar. Use those first. Follow up with scar.
2) Flint light. I don't care how slow it is. Wardens can already salve stack for the put away. They don't need a 3rd affliction to pile on there.
2b) Encampment doesn't need to be groves 2.0
3) Considering the effects of ink sprinkle. They should be slow.
@Sarrius On one hand, you argue that affliction classes should be frail. On the other, you argue that warden needs to be tankier. They have the affliction rate of sabres, the damage of claymores and the limb damage of claymores.
When 2h weapons were released, bardiches/claymores/halberds did 2x limb damage. The targetting ability was removed from knights because it had too much potential to be 'unnecessary' at 4s balance. Curious that it's left on glaives that have a 2s balance speed on a class that has a fire and forget instakill that capitalizes on limb damage. Maybe we could find some wiggle room to allow limb damage pressure on a damage-knight build that is non-existent in 1v1.
The better idea here is, reduce the amazing limb damage of glaives. They're fast enough and have the skills enough (with barkskin) to stay in a fight and count to 8 or 13 like the rest of us.
@Iluv Pet track is 'cool' and I appreciate its usefulness. The problem is that it removes an entire strategy the the shards system was built on: Area 'control', mobility, and reaction times. There's no strategy in "everyone follow Juran|Eldreth|Iluv|Septus" and island hop from shard to shard bopping bunnies on the head. It's fun for the team sure. We're getting to the point where we're pushing for "skillfull use of abilities to win." Pet track takes the 'skill' of the team out of the picture. You're just lobbing a-bombs on half teams and watching the carnage. The 1 second window does nothing for "skill."
Quickjab does too much damage, too many afflictions, and too much limb damage. Individually, any one of those things would be okay. Taken altogether, though, it's a bit too strong.
EDIT: Mostly, I'd like the health damage toned down a bit, so qjabs aren't basically 80-90 damage sabre DSLs.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
1) Scar. type "autocuring priority list" Find scar. Find all the salve afflictions that are higher tier than scar. Use those first. Follow up with scar.
2) Flint light. I don't care how slow it is. Wardens can already salve stack for the put away. They don't need a 3rd affliction to pile on there.
2b) Encampment doesn't need to be groves 2.0
3) Considering the effects of ink sprinkle. They should be slow.
@Sarrius On one hand, you argue that affliction classes should be frail. On the other, you argue that warden needs to be tankier. They have the affliction rate of sabres, the damage of claymores and the limb damage of claymores.
When 2h weapons were released, bardiches/claymores/halberds did 2x limb damage. The targetting ability was removed from knights because it had too much potential to be 'unnecessary' at 4s balance. Curious that it's left on glaives that have a 2s balance speed on a class that has a fire and forget instakill that capitalizes on limb damage. Maybe we could find some wiggle room to allow limb damage pressure on a damage-knight build that is non-existent in 1v1.
The better idea here is, reduce the amazing limb damage of glaives. They're fast enough and have the skills enough (with barkskin) to stay in a fight and count to 8 or 13 like the rest of us.
@Iluv Pet track is 'cool' and I appreciate its usefulness. The problem is that it removes an entire strategy the the shards system was built on: Area 'control', mobility, and reaction times. There's no strategy in "everyone follow Juran|Eldreth|Iluv|Septus" and island hop from shard to shard bopping bunnies on the head. It's fun for the team sure. We're getting to the point where we're pushing for "skillfull use of abilities to win." Pet track takes the 'skill' of the team out of the picture. You're just lobbing a-bombs on half teams and watching the carnage. The 1 second window does nothing for "skill."
@Dyrren Wardens offense is already fast and powerful enough not to need those things. And I completely agree that glaive limb damage should be reduced. And the problem with changing Pet Tracking is that I would have never paid 2000 credits to have an un-followable track.
Limb damage isn't the problem, to me. They're a limb damage class, they're going to need decent break speeds and they have no feint or multi-target. My problem is taking such huge high damage per shot at sabre DSL speed.
@Iluv I don't care how much you paid for it, though. Overpowered is overpowered. Adonis spent way more than 2000 credits to hit people with his 80%+ truenames. Should we have kept them as was, too?
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I have a question - a little off topic - has Imperian ever had a cap on the number of people that are following? If not, would it be useful to consider capping the number of people that travel in a group?
It's an interesting thought, but it would just add to the fortress mentality and increase the defender's already substantial advantage.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
We'd be changing AB TAMING TRACK, not anything about how your pet works.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Also : Scar needs some work. It needs to be uncurable if the head is mangled. It would also be nice if it worked with flintlight or did a little bit of limb damage so you could break with it. Anything to stop the parade of ents.
You can't imagine how funny this sounds until you realize that after Summoner's revamp, ANTI-MAGICK will have the profession with most ents in the game. Also, scars is just too easy to stack.
Anyone else feel priest absolve/diab carthisis should have more requirements than "=< 50% mana!? Feel my lengthy, girthy absolve/carthisis pin you down and dominate you, muhahaha."
Anyone else feel priest absolve/diab carthisis should have more requirements than "=< 50% mana!? Feel my lengthy, girthy absolve/carthisis pin you down and dominate you, muhahaha."
Nope. There are even ways around addiction to help keep your health/mana up. Why do you think it needs more requirements?
Isn't it weird that wardancers didn't get 'slowed down' with the rest of the affliction classes?
They did.
Not enough.
@Khizan I'm not ok with warden's limb damage. I think most of us would be hard pressed to argue against doubleslash being one of the best skills in the game. It's also probably one of the most unintentionally balanced skills, despite the fact that weapon stats are heinously bad. You have to sacrifice afflictions/second to gain damage/second and vice versa. Quick jab is sabre affliction rates, with claymore damage all with faster limb damage than monks. There is no draw back at all.
*Bad combatants will say "but we can't feint slash." Good combatants will tell you there's 5 other places to hit and you can't parry while x, y, z. To be fair, I don't think anyone be should be able to feint.
Regarding CC. People have asked me why I'm so rararar against CC.
Because it's not fun.
Sure, I'm sure that some people get that 'nnngghhh' feeling when they're spamming CC, but that's disturbing. Imperian is a game. Games are supposed to be fun. Competition is supposed to be fun. When I roll into a team fight, things are so much more fun when it's actually a lot of give and take, target switching, priorities and everyone is hitting everyone else. These are the fights we remember as fun.
No one likes this crap:
A disturbing 'toot toot' heralds the entrance of the crowd control wagon, with Aten, Dagobert, Airamaya and Crixus on board. Crixus knocks you unconscious.
Aten binds you Dagobert razes.
Crixus knocks you unconscious again, but it doesn't work because you're under the cd timer.
Airamaya pin darts. And only pin darts.
Aten unblinds you (only unblind. It's not like he can hit two more times)
Dagobert does damage.
Crixus knocks you unconscious.
Aten binds you Airamaya pins again.
Crixus knocks you unconscious again, but it doesn't work because you're under the cd timer.
Aten transfixes you
Dagobert does damage.
Honestly, I tanked four people for 60-120 seconds, because three of them were 100% focussed on trolling their way through a variety of terrible crowd control mechanics. Had they actually used afflictions, damage, limb damage, I may have died in four rounds. Instead, I had to sit and watch the screen scroll by and unable to do anything of importance. It sucked. I'm sure some crowd-control defender will be like "herpderp, you could have run away." I would consider that if it weren't for spider intercept, warden lockup, double dance x2 and block.
TOPIC CHANGE ---> Why I think ciguatoxin is bad and makes fighting affliction offenses not fun.
This toxin is dumb. It has three very important effects that make it the god of toxins.
-You cannot move.
-You cannot touch tree.
-You cannot attack.
This is at the core of why Septus' flare-troll-bot is so effective. You can technically power through nairat/loshre by spamming affliction cures, but you can't with ciguatoxin/hemotoxin because purge/tree are blocked.
I've floated this idea before. We need to separate the can't run, can't hit and can't cure mechanics. It separates the keep them from running, keep them from attacking, and keep them from curing strategies so you can't troll afflict your way to a win without getting hit. Khizan's biggest problem with afflicters (maybe I'm quoting this wrong) is "they can stop me from attacking." This should fix that.
Ciguatoxin --> the toxin that removes your ability to attack
Metrazol --> removes your ability to run (paralyzed legs)
Buffazol (Oxycodone) --> removes your ability to touch tree
I think I'd be fine with that, but it seems too risky as a classlead-scale change.. I mean, it's 3 reports rolled in to one. Maybe @Garryn could comment on it?
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Albeit that Predator's are one of the more tanky classes currently (Spacing, ein-fasit if you're going full on defense) I don't think removing our ability to mitigate is a good idea. We still use shitty leather armor which only Monk, Mage, and Hunter are forced to be in the same boat. Monk has many mitigation routes, Mage has their robes, and Hunter has a retarded amount of tankiness that surpasses that of Predator iirc.
The crescencut change to enable raze I also believe is still necessary because the only time I am going to get a kill is if I quad break you and pray to jesus that I had you setup with bloodscourge and hit you with Lartosis on the leg breaks, and that your rebounding only comes up once during my CC train.
When testing with Karyn I did 22(28raw) to a rebounded and prone opponent. When no rebounding was up I did 67 (86 raw). This is with a level 3 psychic sitara. Factoring in resists, it's about 33% of the total damage. Does this make a massive impact? Not really. The only fair change would be to remove damage from CC if it does raze the rebounding. And also not allow CC to raze if the opponent is standing.
Hunter is nowhere near as durable as Predator. Predator is the second most durable class after Runeguard, I think.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
You cannot get toughness or resistance from Bliss now, as Bliss defenses are user-only.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Absolve should not be usable through certain states that other people cannot attack in, while we're on the topic of Absolve.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Lower mana statpacks are going to suffer against classes with mana based finishers. Pretty much like trying to roll a fast/other untanky statpack vs a damage class (let's go with druid, everyone loves druid).
Concerning ciguatoxin: this toxin would be nowhere near as overwhelming if it was taken just on its own, but just about any affliction class can be rolling strych/metrazol to go with it which cuts the window down between when you do and don't have ciguatoxin by a huge amount. I think I like the splitting its functionality out into multiple toxins. I'd assume the third toxin would more generally be the blocks touching all tattoos aspect, not just tree. (What would cure the tattoo blocking toxin would also factor in pretty heavily I'd say. No way do we need more kelp/maidenhair affs.)
Thanks @Sarrius for the mention that bliss is no longer available for others.
@Ahkan - Believe me, I understand the hate of bs like pwhip followed by alternating pindowns and cc's, but that is a very specific instance that is seen very rarely. Shou and Karyn run in a pack usually, so if you see them, then expect to have them use any and all abilities to lock down and kill someone.
Furthermore, it is silly to think that most predators have ALL of these mitigations or even know how to use most of them properly.There may be 20 predators, but maybe five know what they're doing. I personally don't see any major nerfs that need to be done.
Also, Ein-fasit is only able to be cited as 'mitigation' when you're on a full blown defense due to the fact that most stance combos don't end in it.
Thanks @Sarrius for the mention that bliss is no longer available for others.
@Ahkan - Believe me, I understand the hate of bs like pwhip followed by alternating pindowns and cc's, but that is a very specific instance that is seen very rarely. Shou and Karyn run in a pack usually, so if you see them, then expect to have them use any and all abilities to lock down and kill someone.
Furthermore, it is silly to think that most predators have ALL of these mitigations or even know how to use most of them properly.There may be 20 predators, but maybe five know what they're doing. I personally don't see any major nerfs that need to be done.
Also, Ein-fasit is only able to be cited as 'mitigation' when you're on a full blown defense due to the fact that most stance combos don't end in it.
1) Chain crowd control happens constantly in group fights 2) We try not to balance classes around people that don't know how to use them, so your multitudes of unskilled predators aren't part of a valid argument.
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
In fast without artifacts, that leaves you kind of squishy. Only reason I live a relatively long time in shardfalls is because I'm Athletic, usually low priority, and people suck at holding(apart from lockup, which is stupid as hell).
Khizan's biggest problem with afflicters (maybe I'm quoting this wrong) is "they can stop me from attacking." This should fix that.
Mostly accurate.
Specifically, my problem is that just pushing their normal offense home has so much control of the fight. I don't mind when I can't attack so much when my opponent is making a major sacrifice of his offensive momentum to do it; a summoner leaning on his hangedman macro is not a summoner who is actively pushing towards a kill. A Mage who webs me a few times to buy time is giving up momentum to do so.
Most affliction classes, though, get this control of the fight for free. Cigua/metra/clumsiness/weakness and various lethargy effects all work into affliction stacks in a way that lets affliction classes hinder my offense in a way that progresses their offense; there is no sacrifice of momentum for this hindrance.
I hate that. It leads to things like the Druid, which is a viable 1v1 class only because it frontloads its burst so heavily that affliction classes don't get a chance to put a lock on their offense. If affliction offenses had less raw control, they wouldn't need to be so squishy and damage could be a viable kill method outside of Druids and limb classes.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Dias accidentally hit on one of the biggest problems with classleads,
"We should fix my class which isn't broken because the people who play it aren't smart enough to use it."
@Sarrius. I forgot about that classlead. Ding 10% resist of predadur. Still too tanky
@Dicene You're a burst affliction class that punishes people for curing high priority afflictions. You have to roll fast statpack to succeed. Welcome to the affliction dilemma, we've got jackets. This is how Imperian chooses to balance affliction classes. GLASS CANNON...(meet druid).
Comments
On one hand, you argue that affliction classes should be frail. On the other, you argue that warden needs to be tankier. They have the affliction rate of sabres, the damage of claymores and the limb damage of claymores.
Pet track is 'cool' and I appreciate its usefulness. The problem is that it removes an entire strategy the the shards system was built on: Area 'control', mobility, and reaction times. There's no strategy in "everyone follow Juran|Eldreth|Iluv|Septus" and island hop from shard to shard bopping bunnies on the head. It's fun for the team sure. We're getting to the point where we're pushing for "skillfull use of abilities to win." Pet track takes the 'skill' of the team out of the picture. You're just lobbing a-bombs on half teams and watching the carnage. The 1 second window does nothing for "skill."
Quickjab does too much damage, too many afflictions, and too much limb damage. Individually, any one of those things would be okay. Taken altogether, though, it's a bit too strong.
EDIT: Mostly, I'd like the health damage toned down a bit, so qjabs aren't basically 80-90 damage sabre DSLs.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Limb damage isn't the problem, to me. They're a limb damage class, they're going to need decent break speeds and they have no feint or multi-target. My problem is taking such huge high damage per shot at sabre DSL speed.
@Iluv I don't care how much you paid for it, though. Overpowered is overpowered. Adonis spent way more than 2000 credits to hit people with his 80%+ truenames. Should we have kept them as was, too?
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
And they are still way too freaking fast.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
That does reminds me. Redemption is probably no longer required for Devotioners.
Nope. There are even ways around addiction to help keep your health/mana up. Why do you think it needs more requirements?
@Khizan
I'm not ok with warden's limb damage. I think most of us would be hard pressed to argue against doubleslash being one of the best skills in the game. It's also probably one of the most unintentionally balanced skills, despite the fact that weapon stats are heinously bad. You have to sacrifice afflictions/second to gain damage/second and vice versa. Quick jab is sabre affliction rates, with claymore damage all with faster limb damage than monks. There is no draw back at all.
*Bad combatants will say "but we can't feint slash." Good combatants will tell you there's 5 other places to hit and you can't parry while x, y, z. To be fair, I don't think anyone be should be able to feint.
Because it's not fun.
Sure, I'm sure that some people get that 'nnngghhh' feeling when they're spamming CC, but that's disturbing. Imperian is a game. Games are supposed to be fun. Competition is supposed to be fun. When I roll into a team fight, things are so much more fun when it's actually a lot of give and take, target switching, priorities and everyone is hitting everyone else. These are the fights we remember as fun.
No one likes this crap:
Crixus knocks you unconscious.
Dagobert razes.
Airamaya pins again.
Honestly, I tanked four people for 60-120 seconds, because three of them were 100% focussed on trolling their way through a variety of terrible crowd control mechanics. Had they actually used afflictions, damage, limb damage, I may have died in four rounds. Instead, I had to sit and watch the screen scroll by and unable to do anything of importance. It sucked. I'm sure some crowd-control defender will be like "herpderp, you could have run away." I would consider that if it weren't for spider intercept, warden lockup, double dance x2 and block.
This toxin is dumb. It has three very important effects that make it the god of toxins.
This is at the core of why Septus' flare-troll-bot is so effective. You can technically power through nairat/loshre by spamming affliction cures, but you can't with ciguatoxin/hemotoxin because purge/tree are blocked.
I've floated this idea before. We need to separate the can't run, can't hit and can't cure mechanics. It separates the keep them from running, keep them from attacking, and keep them from curing strategies so you can't troll afflict your way to a win without getting hit. Khizan's biggest problem with afflicters (maybe I'm quoting this wrong) is "they can stop me from attacking." This should fix that.
Ciguatoxin --> the toxin that removes your ability to attack
Surcoat
Then throw in the stupid amount of delaying tactics, cc.
And factor in their design
Lower mana statpacks are going to suffer against classes with mana based finishers. Pretty much like trying to roll a fast/other untanky statpack vs a damage class (let's go with druid, everyone loves druid).
Concerning ciguatoxin: this toxin would be nowhere near as overwhelming if it was taken just on its own, but just about any affliction class can be rolling strych/metrazol to go with it which cuts the window down between when you do and don't have ciguatoxin by a huge amount. I think I like the splitting its functionality out into multiple toxins. I'd assume the third toxin would more generally be the blocks touching all tattoos aspect, not just tree. (What would cure the tattoo blocking toxin would also factor in pretty heavily I'd say. No way do we need more kelp/maidenhair affs.)
1) Chain crowd control happens constantly in group fights
2) We try not to balance classes around people that don't know how to use them, so your multitudes of unskilled predators aren't part of a valid argument.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Mostly accurate.
Specifically, my problem is that just pushing their normal offense home has so much control of the fight. I don't mind when I can't attack so much when my opponent is making a major sacrifice of his offensive momentum to do it; a summoner leaning on his hangedman macro is not a summoner who is actively pushing towards a kill. A Mage who webs me a few times to buy time is giving up momentum to do so.
Most affliction classes, though, get this control of the fight for free. Cigua/metra/clumsiness/weakness and various lethargy effects all work into affliction stacks in a way that lets affliction classes hinder my offense in a way that progresses their offense; there is no sacrifice of momentum for this hindrance.
I hate that. It leads to things like the Druid, which is a viable 1v1 class only because it frontloads its burst so heavily that affliction classes don't get a chance to put a lock on their offense. If affliction offenses had less raw control, they wouldn't need to be so squishy and damage could be a viable kill method outside of Druids and limb classes.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
"We should fix my class which isn't broken because the people who play it aren't smart enough to use it."
@Sarrius. I forgot about that classlead. Ding 10% resist of predadur. Still too tanky
@Dicene You're a burst affliction class that punishes people for curing high priority afflictions. You have to roll fast statpack to succeed. Welcome to the affliction dilemma, we've got jackets. This is how Imperian chooses to balance affliction classes. GLASS CANNON...(meet druid).
Predator Azefel was tankier than me in templar. I was so mad.
So, so mad.