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Mage and Summoner revamps

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  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    Hangedman, meet Kai Cripple. Or maybe Kai Banish.

    Certainly, hangeman spam is annoying, but somehow balanced because they wouldn't gain momentum either, unless you really count some diverse affs something worth calling momentum. It will remain to see with demon unleashing if it should be allowed to still exist. It will also depend if there is really a reliable way for Summoners to even use hangedman without heave. An ability that you can't use reliably except when with allies is so meh.
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    The problem with beta is it is pretty good at identifying and correcting the "blood freeze does 800 damage let's scale that back a bit" issues but less so the challenges of balancing skills with the dynamics of real-time group combat. CCs are one of those nuances.
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    On a different note, how open is @Garryn to allowing us to cash in on a mountain of true names that will vanish once the switch is flipped? I am thinking spontaneous incineration/destruction, but I am open to more nefarious outcomes (I'd love the chance to give my Arlith and Anarion TNs worthy send offs.)
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
    IniarMenochSarrius
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Eldreth said:
    On a different note, how open is @Garryn to allowing us to cash in on a mountain of true names that will vanish once the switch is flipped? I am thinking spontaneous incineration/destruction, but I am open to more nefarious outcomes (I'd love the chance to give my Arlith and Anarion TNs worthy send offs.)
    Tell you what, buddy. You are one person in this game I could never hate. Before truename dies the true death, I will log in on Arlith and let you use it one last time. :(
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
    Eldreth
  • DyrrenDyrren Member Posts: 35
    Eldreth said:
    Lust is also a useful tool for ally management. Why should I have to relust allies when they die pking, bashing, etc to accommodate the fact that people don't treat lust like they would lack of mass, cloak, accidental removal of armour, or any other vital condition that is going to get you killed before rushing headlong into battle?

    Why should I not vehemently refuse to do the sort of ally management you would vehemently refuse to do yourself?

    You have doppelgängers, we know you load them up with Lust, so the road is practically paved with gold, right?

    No, not really. Let that be the greatest illustration of this dilemma.

    As for treating Lust like mass or anything else, I actually tried that two nights ago.  I had a system where I'd make a list of everyone who lusted me and reject automatically.  When I asked if anyone had the reject message, I was reminded that automatically rejecting left me open to being locked in an endless hangedman/lust loop.

    So curing it is as debilitating as not curing it.  There is no defense outside of removing yourself from combat to check against it.

    But you already know this.  You're just making a bad argument for bad argument's sake, and this kind of sophistry is disgusting.

    Just let it die on death already.  Check against enemies if you like, so that at least there is some sort of defense against it.
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Late to the party, but regarding lust: uniformity is only really a good thing if you take it so far. Every circle having exactly identical capabilities and whatnot doesn't make for particularly interesting fights. I honestly can't see how lust is a problem (you can even code it into your renounce grace alias if its that big a deal). Check allies on the coming back to life lines, the grace falling line, etc. If you ever get lusted it is 100% your falt. It happens to everyone on occasion and its not because the summoners doing something underhanded or cheap (in most cases), its because you slipped up. Just move on and you'll be more careful next time.

    Also if they're spamming lust on you in a teamfight or one on one and the argument is you're wasting equilibrium, they're not being very productive either given the rest of the options available to current summoner for such situations.

    EldrethAhkan
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Bad system is bad. What you really do is check if they are really in your allies list. And only actually reject if you plan to run any time soon, or you have passives that require enemy status.

    If you kill them, you can reject in the after math, if you die, remember to check allies before renouncing, if you do manage to run away, drop a monolith or touch shield, depending of your circle, and THEN reject. Lust forces you to escape intelligently, instead of just pathwinding away.

    Lust isn't old Cruel Lament, that forced you to live indoors.
    Lust isn't old Cataclysm, that also forced you to live indoors.
    Lust certainly isn't Altar summoning, that can get you even safely inside your city, while on haze/mono/hg.

    Your arguments are basically reduced to 'I don't want to worry about this'.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, no. What I got out of his argument is, 'there is no skill that continues to set me up to die after I already died.' That's the part I agree with. You can sit there and tell me over and over that I should manage it, and maybe you're right, but since there is no other skill in the game that I have to worry about after dying once, I don't think lust should function like that either.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
    ZiatKalonAhkanSeptus
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    It is a skill that certainly sets up you to die, but only if you are willing to ignore one of the simplest rules ever. It isn't unavoidable in any way.

    If it had a time before it could be rejected, maybe. If it required that you did a ritual in a specific place, maybe. If you had to walk up to the area where the summoner is before you had to reject maybe.

    But no. All I'm asking is that before you do RENOUNCE GRACE, you check ALLIES.

    This isn't pre-kai, against I can do nothing. Nor pre-quake, that is also out of my control. ALLIES!
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Bathan said:

    Well, no. What I got out of his argument is, 'there is no skill that continues to set me up to die after I already died.' That's the part I agree with. You can sit there and tell me over and over that I should manage it,

    Wouldn't any skill that strips your cloak set you up to die after you died once upon brazier, unless managed (checking defs) before heading back into battle?
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Labil said:
    It is a skill that certainly sets up you to die, but only if you are willing to ignore one of the simplest rules ever. It isn't unavoidable in any way.

    If it had a time before it could be rejected, maybe. If it required that you did a ritual in a specific place, maybe. If you had to walk up to the area where the summoner is before you had to reject maybe.

    But no. All I'm asking is that before you do RENOUNCE GRACE, you check ALLIES.

    This isn't pre-kai, against I can do nothing. Nor pre-quake, that is also out of my control. ALLIES!
    That's fine. I get it. I'm just saying, there's no other mechanism like it in place, so I don't get why you're arguing so hard for it to be there.


    Eldreth said:
    Well, no. What I got out of his argument is, 'there is no skill that continues to set me up to die after I already died.' That's the part I agree with. You can sit there and tell me over and over that I should manage it,
    Wouldn't any skill that strips your cloak set you up to die after you died once upon brazier, unless managed (checking defs) before you get back from Dis and head back into battle?
    If I walk into your area, sure, that would be problematic. However, lust is a global summon (unless I'm that out of it, which I might be, I honestly don't PvP much anymore) that can be used by people less reasonable than you.

    Could either of you explain why a summoner needs a leg up on people after killing them once?
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • ZiatZiat Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    When you die, you check allies. You have a lust. Apparently you can't reject in dis so you have to wait to come out and then reject, which again you forget if you are in an intense fight (Shardfalls/monoliths with big numbers). No one wants to nerf your skill or make it useless. They just hate the fact that you can have it last till we reject. It should go away on death. You wanted a kill out of it, you got it. 


  • KalonKalon Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    I also have no clue what the thinking was behind making reject impossible while dead. its a custom message too, so someone somewhere was like "this is a good idea".
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Right, the primary difference is the global summon. I said earlier it can be a grey area and it is reasonable to suggest that non-demonic (or some variant) maybe be limited in that department.

    By "leg" up to kill them again, I will assume you mean truename

    :D
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
    Menoch
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    So make it rejectable while dead.

    Bet you that the amount of deaths caused by Lust wouldn't dip that much.
    Menoch
  • DyrrenDyrren Member Posts: 35
    Eldreth said:
    Wouldn't any skill that strips your cloak set you up to die after you died once upon brazier, unless managed (checking defs) before heading back into battle?
    There's a reason why cloak costs half a second of equilibrium.  There's even a special new tattoo to reduce the chance of losing the defense.  To say that there hasn't been a lot of work to mitigate loss of cloak is patently wrong.

    Make rejection cost half a second of eq, restrict Empress to the same area, and I'll trust arguments of equivalency.
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Hood was made to discourage ranged combat. Last time I checked, brazier isn't stopped by mono and equivalents.

    Apples, oranges, pears.
    Menoch
  • KalonKalon Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    Discourage ranged combat, sort of like lust cards thrown through a doppleganger? :P
    -sits back and waits for the flames-
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    While we are at it, if I'm in an exterminated room, roots entering my room should one-shotable.

    Discuss.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No one thought about lust rejecting while dead because Imperian is the only game where you can move around and do anything while dead. The only valid point from the river of tears and bad arguments has been "Dyrren's lust should not persist after death." It's a legit fix.
    Bathan
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's all I'd be gunning for, nothing else. I don't mind it being a global summon if it clears after death.

    More to point, Eldreth's a jerk.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    You can't see it, but he just hit TRUENAME LIST, and weeps from the memories.
  • KalonKalon Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    Ahkan said:

    No one thought about lust rejecting while dead because Imperian is the only game where you can move around and do anything while dead. The only valid point from the river of tears and bad arguments has been "Dyrren's lust should not persist after death." It's a legit fix.

    No, someone did, because the message is not the generic "you cannot do that while dead." or even "violence in this area is prevented by the divine ones". You gt the message "you are not capable of rejecting while a soul", which means its happening in its own check.
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Bathan said:

    That's all I'd be gunning for, nothing else. I don't mind it being a global summon if it clears after death.

    More to point, Eldreth's a jerk.

    I will call us even on pet track w/ Jaxt to my Cloud if you let me burn all your character TNs
    :(
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
    Sarrius
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is only right. Eldreth died so many times failing to bail me out of Stavenn ganking me. He deserves the satisfaction of hitting the truename button on me at least one more time - call it closure. Or catharsis. Either or.
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013

    Kalon said:
    No one thought about lust rejecting while dead because Imperian is the only game where you can move around and do anything while dead. The only valid point from the river of tears and bad arguments has been "Dyrren's lust should not persist after death." It's a legit fix.
    No, someone did, because the message is not the generic "you cannot do that while dead." or even "violence in this area is prevented by the divine ones". You gt the message "you are not capable of rejecting while a soul", which means its happening in its own check.
    I think that was to prevent oddities with grace in case stuff bugged out rather than to deal with lust.

    Alternatively, just undo that check and let reject happen in Dis and everyone can be happy.  People who don't check will still be at risk due to slipping up, people who do check will defeat the machinations of the terrible demonic overlords out to  grief every player out of the game and feel smug about their superior pk ability.

    Edit: The rest of this was a disingenuous argument that really doesn't serve a purpose so deleted.  Also deleted the end of a sentence that was somewhat insulting.
  • EustoEusto Member, Moderator Posts: 123 mod
    Kalon said:
    No one thought about lust rejecting while dead because Imperian is the only game where you can move around and do anything while dead. The only valid point from the river of tears and bad arguments has been "Dyrren's lust should not persist after death." It's a legit fix.
    No, someone did, because the message is not the generic "you cannot do that while dead." or even "violence in this area is prevented by the divine ones". You gt the message "you are not capable of rejecting while a soul", which means its happening in its own check.
    To be fair, this is old, old code we're talking about. Inconsistency in messages is not necessarily reflective of a design decision.
    BathanTaqja
  • XeronXeron Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    Holy sweet jesus why is this still going.

    I didn't even track lust at all up until like, a month ago and I didn't have as much of a problem with it as this thread leads me to believe people do. Granted, I thought it was incredibly stupid that you can't reject while dead when I found that out, but that's the only problem there is with Lust.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013

    I'll TL;DR this entire lust related conversation for you:

    "Lust kills me and people on my side and that's not cool so we need to nerf it."

    "Lust is pretty easy to prevent, all these simple things can stop it, you should try being less bad at those things."

    "That sounds awfully hard and I shouldn't have to do that much work and it should be nerfed so I don't have to."


    Repeat the last two sentences in a loop.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    LabilMenoch
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Man, if lust is the #1 thing you're going to focus on whining about in the beta, no wonder we have druids.

    Wait...OH. MY. GOD.


    the beta isn't for whining?
    MenochLindsayLabil
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