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Mage and Summoner revamps

GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
As many of you have figured out from the hint in announce post #2278, I'll be doing a revamp of the Mage and Summoner classes during the next few months. The design is still a work in progress, but I have enough things finalized to be able to provide some details on what to expect - please keep in mind that some of this is still preliminary and may change.

Mage

Mages are changing into a momentum-based profession that primarily focuses on burst damage, utilizing afflictions to establish momentum. The primary new concept will be elemental attunements - each spell is assigned to one element, and most offensive spells, when cast at a target, will increase the target's attunement to the spell's element. Each type of attunement will have 5 levels and will be cured by a different plant (orphine = fire, mandrake = air, nightshade = earth, kelp = water). What is important is that attunement will always be cured last, after all other afflictions for that plant. All attunements will also be curable by focus with the same "always last" restriction.

An important design element is that spells of a particular element never give afflictions cured by a plant that cures the element's attunement - which means that to successfully increase attunements, you will need to plan ahead and combine spells of multiple types. Additionally, many spells have an additional "if target attuned to X or more, this spell also does Y" element present.

A second key feature will be spell combinations. Each spell will be classified as a stand-alone, primary, or secondary, and you will be able to cast a combination of a primary+secondary spell. Some spells will be able to be used as either primary or secondary, with different effects in each mode. Stand-alone spells can't be combined (most utility spells are like this).

The primary skill (name still pending) contains spells focusing on the fire and water elements. Fire spells primarily focus on damage, with various conditional effects depending on the target's fire attunement. The water spells are more (but not exclusively) focused on various hindering effects.

The secondary skill (again, with name pending) predictably focuses on air and earth spells. Thematically it is somewhat similar to Evocation, but focusing on raw elements rather than utilizing nature. Functionally, the air spells mainly revolve around the Reflection spell, which is going to retain its usage, but will also be extended to allow some line-of-sight attacks (the class will no longer have area-wide control, as druids fill that role now). Finally, the earth element mainly provides utility and support spells.

Finally, the tertiary skill contains two different themes. The majority of the skill focuses around a crystal that the Mage can spin in a room. The crystal slowly gains power until a cap. Once at maximum power, the crystal will provide passive health/mana regen to its owner. This is not its primary use, though - the crystal will allow to focus spells through it, which will consume some of its accumulated power and give the spell an additional effect of the Mage's choice. Power is consumed much faster than it is gained and the cap is fairly low, which means that the crystal will most commonly be used to provide 'burst' offense at the right moment.

The second part of this skill will allow creation of some of the current Alchemy items, most notably sigils.

IMPORTANT: many Alchemy items will cease being available. The Magick circle may want to invest into the Engineering Research shard skill to cover the gap.

Finally, to answer the obvious question, the profession will no longer have aeon-style functionality, nor anything similar to the current Crystalism vibrations.

Summoner

Thematically, Summoners are in a much better shape than Mages, and will be retaining much more of what they have, even though in a significantly changed way. The profession will follow a 'demonic caster' theme, with a focus on both damage and afflictions (the affliction focus is somewhat higher than in the case of Mages).

The primary skill (Noctu replacement, possible name change to be determined) will utilize the element attunement concept that Mages will use - instead of the four elements, though, they will use only the fire element and a new 'spirit' attunement. Spirit attunement will be a laurel smoke cure, with the same "cured last" functionality.

The fire spells will follow a similar damage-oriented approach, but will thematically be more oriented on heat generation than raw fire. The spirit spells will build upon the existing Noctu effects that follow this theme - the various *aura abilities. Of note is the fact that Transmogrify will no longer be available - read up below on Enslavery for the replacement functionality.

Tarot remains the second skill, with much of its functionality unchanged. Some cards will be reworked - the most notable change is that I'll be removing the option to fling two cards at once. Instead, you will be able to infuse a card with a spell, meaning your primary offense will consist of spell+tarot combinations. Obviously some cards (most notably Hangedman and Aeon) will need to change for this to be viable.

Hangedman will see a prone requirement added, but the biggest change is coming to Aeon. The aeon affliction will change entirely, and will provide a damage-relapse effect similar to what sulfonal does with toxins. The exact conditions and restrictions on this are yet to be determined.

Finally, Enslavery. Pact forming and the demon list will remain, but the actual functionality will change. Instead of providing a set of entities, a system similar to the current Golgotha ability will be used. The Summoner will be able to become possessed by the various Demon Lords and take advantage of this in various ways. The actual effects will vary widely - some will provide defenses such as higher stats (a replacement for the existing Transmogrify), while others will offer various offensive effects. Some will be removed upon use, others will be able to be used as often as desired.

An important feature of Enslavery will be that the capacity for being possessed will be restricted - you will not be able to become possessed by all the demons at once, but will instead have to choose.

The only remaining entities will be the pathfinder and the doppleganger (with a different spell list) - everything else will instead use the new system.

Conclusion

There will be a full beta test scheduled after all these changes have been coded, where the balancing issues will be addressed. Some changes to the Wytch profession may also prove necessary with the aeon change - this will likewise be addressed at that time.

Some of you have submitted classleads that are no longer relevant in the light of these changes - if this applies to you, contact me if you'd like to have your report removed.

ZiatCaelyaEldrethDiceneVelionAzefelIniar
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Comments

  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    No really useful comments here, just wanna say these changes have a lot of potential to be fun. I might play my Summoner a lot more after these go live. It is good to see Aeon changing though, especially with the changes to it that never outrifting again brings.

    Edit: Really hoping that they get some enslavery mods to help DPS or just bashing in general.
    image
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm probably wrong, but it feels like a lot of the new classes are like, afflict into super high damage and it feels like, for the most part we tends to have a lot of strange issues with them.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
    GurnSarciossisVelion
  • ZiatZiat Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    My issue is where you mentioned momentum. Usually classes requiring momentum are quite annoying to play with because the class reaches the point where everyone understands when the finisher is about to happen and start being defensive (Renegade, Bard, Hunter). That's an issue with most class but its one of the problems I see coming to Mages.

    On the other hand, I see a lot of synergy between Mages and Hunters after this, since both focus on affliction for burst damage. This could prove quite effective in teams. 


  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Bathan said:
    I'm probably wrong, but it feels like a lot of the new classes are like, afflict into super high damage and it feels like, for the most part we tends to have a lot of strange issues with them.
    Yes, the effect on team combat is definitely something to keep an eye on.
  • AntraxAntrax Member Posts: 16
    edited February 2013

    @Bathan: That's because Imperian combat focus 99% around team fights. It's simply hell of a job to get the right formula of getting skills to work ok in 1v1 and not be the PK-ruling ability number one in teams. To be fair though, after bellow was pounded to dust Demonic lacked burst damage classes. We have affliction classes but they are not that effective in teams. We had a 4x DK team playing around a few days ago. We would rip someone up fast with many afflictions but during that time we lost 2 (artie-dudes) in our team against damage.

    I am looking forward for these changes, even though I will miss aeon badly.  :( 

    EDIT:@Ziat: Unless brainmelt gets a decent nerf during the classleads that's something Imperian doesn't need.
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    I'll note that there's a lot that I haven't revealed yet. Summoner is going to be geared up for both damage and affliction roles - you will definitely be able to use it as a damage class in team fights. As for the Hangedman concerns - you can infuse cards with spells, the spell fires before the card's effect does, and there's a spell that prones - the restriction is there mainly to prevent using Hangedman as the primary offense.
    Septus
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    Some Predators are basically Pindown bots. I don't see any difference there.
    AhkanMenoch
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    To rephrase - you will still be able to use Hangedman on a standing target, just like Predators can. You just will not be able to combo this with a damage spell - just like Predators can't.
  • AntraxAntrax Member Posts: 16
    Untrue, Garryn. You can pindown + do like 100 dmg with a lvl 3 sitara in one go.
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    And raze the aura at the same time, so the rest don't have to worry about it.
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Antrax said:
    Untrue, Garryn. You can pindown + do like 100 dmg with a lvl 3 sitara in one go.
    Trip, pindown, crescentcut is quite slow and is closer to throw hangedman, queue eqbal warp.
  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    Ziat said:
    My issue is where you mentioned momentum. Usually classes requiring momentum are quite annoying to play with because the class reaches the point where everyone understands when the finisher is about to happen and start being defensive (Renegade, Bard, Hunter). That's an issue with most class but its one of the problems I see coming to Mages.



    All profession utilize momentum of some sort. Playing defensive when you notice the profession hits its stride is how you defend properly against anyone.


    On the offensive side, it's the attacker's job to make it so the person they're fighting can't play super defensive and still live.
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    #Trigger {message of target being pindown} {queue eqbal attack $target} is available to everyone.
    AhkanMenochIniar
  • AntraxAntrax Member Posts: 16
    Juran said:
    Trip, pindown, crescentcut is quite slow and is closer to throw hangedman, queue eqbal warp.
    Who cares about it being slow? In group combat nowadays you are most likely dead after that anyhow. And even though I lack numbers I am positive that it's not "slow" compared to many other attacks. Not when you consider the profit of using it.
    Ahkan
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    I can easily gather the numbers. Reserving space for it.
  • ZiatZiat Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
     The primary new concept will be elemental attunements - each spell is assigned to one element, and most offensive spells, when cast at a target, will increase the target's attunement to the spell's element. Each type of attunement will have 5 levels and will be cured by a different plant 

    @Gurn There is a difference between SOME momentum and HEAVY Momentum. Heavy momentum classes include bard, which people don't prefer to fight over the "timebomb" nature. While classes like druid have a light momentum. If a person shields from a druid, the best they will do is heal some health. If a person shields from say a hunter, or a renegade, they will likely need to start all over again if triggers have been used and sorts. Heroism prevents all this to some extent but it still remains an issue. 

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bathan said:
    I'm probably wrong, but it feels like a lot of the new classes are like, afflict into super high damage and it feels like, for the most part we tends to have a lot of strange issues with them.

    That works, though, because AM's been into super high damage from the start, and it's why AM's almost always the most numerous circle and, long term, probably the most successful circle. Because, while it might not be optimal, every AM class can go strong and push the kill button and still have a meaningful contribution in a team. 

    The other circles have long had the problem where a significant portion of their population is playing affliction classes, who usually are both lacking in the on-demand burst damage of AM and who have to take a fairly fragile statpack. Team Hunter may have some fairly powerful delayed burst, but that doesn't help a lot when your dudes are picking their teeth up off the ground after the first 3 seconds of the fight.


    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think we can all agree the most important question here is will my tentacles still be lore appropriate.  I would hate to have to come up with another gimmick. :(
    IvelliosRagnarLixanIniar
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HR's been telling me for years that your tentacles are not 'appropriate.'
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
    AhkanTaqjaKyrock
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Before the latest round of changes (Golgotha body, INT statpack buffs) pushed the issue in one direction, Summoner often suffered from a bit of an identity crisis when it came to statpacks. Tarot utilization required fast/clever at the sacrifice of damage, Noctu required INT/clever at the sacrifice of tarot. The "flexibility" for unique class builds sounds good in theory, but the net result was probably that it never did either particularly well (as has been documented ad nausem). Do you envision a clear-cut statpack preference similar to what we see with a lot of other classes?
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With the exception of gimmick builds like Indica's fast death tarot, or Zenigra's 'damage is all that matters' truename machine gun, the most successful Noctu over the years have been clever.

    Physical classes choose between strong for raw damage, fast for afflictions, and athletic to hybrid the two and that paradigm holds up, I could envision a Noctu that could go intelligent for raw damage, fast for afflictions, and clever to hybrid the two in a similar way.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    With the exception of gimmick builds like Indica's fast death tarot, or Zenigra's 'damage is all that matters' truename machine gun, the most successful Noctu over the years have been clever.

    ^This sentence has extra words and misplaced words.^ 

    The most successful Noctu over the years have been gimmick builds. 

    Old paradigms are old (and busted). I think it would be cool (and unique) to have an equilibrium-based affliction/damage caster. The hybrid game never ends well in clever. Wytchen has it best because of their lack of reliance on damage. Noctu gets hit harder. The least of both worlds is a really iffy middle ground that falls short in all categories. 
    image
    Menoch
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    Clever was the pack of choice because it had enough INT to take old Animate's INT hit and still warp decently, in exchange for the CON, and still throw tarot fast.

    Basically, it avoided having to choose between speed and warp damage, and still be tanky enough.
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not having seen the build yet, I can't properly comment any better than you - but there is potential for differentiation if each build is properly balanced.

    A noctu that wanted to focus on tarot and attunements into whatever instakill that gave them could go fast or clever, using the vulnerability to damage granted by their skills and the relapsing bonus of aeon to grant them burst.

    A noctu that went intelligent could be far less subtle, pumping out statpack bonused damage immediately, with far less buildup but presumably with a lower ceiling.

    This would align with the physical statpacks that can turn on the pain immediately with cleave/strike/SSD, or go the long burn route and run fast/athletic.
  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    Garryn, I might have misread it, but you said 'the Aeon affliction', not 'the Aeon card'. Does this means that Aeon for wytch will be changed as well?
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    Some changes to the Wytch profession may also prove necessary with the aeon change - this will likewise be addressed at that time.
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wytch was designed around aeon being a secondary ability, retained more for teams than anything else. Wytch aeon is slow and generally inefficient when compared to Noctu, and they could lose it with only minimal changes to the class.
    Kyrock
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2013
    This would align with the physical statpacks that can turn on the pain immediately with cleave/strike/SSD, or go the long burn route and run fast/athletic.

    For the love of god, please don't fall into this pit trap.
    When you attach the word "caster" to anything, it's really go intelligent or go home. Just look at how people play telepathy monks. (oops).
    When you attach the word "afflict" to anything, it's really go fast or go home. 

    Athletic things are an amazing example of the unfortunate middle ground called 'no man's land.' I'm not sure  on the citation here (and note the absence of one) but in my experience (and zith's) athletic is a really meh trade off. You don't have the affliction pressure (you're significantly slower than g-bot) and the damage trade off to sabres is nothing to write home about (even with emblazon and soulquench). If you're not able to stick your dps toxins, you're really just doing absymal dps which only scales to worse the slower the weapon gets. If you're not fast, you're not afflicting. 

    Clever really falls into this area (unless you're a wytch, because of swiftcurse). Noctu had to sacrifice put-a-way potential and burst damage to go clever. Knights, wardens and WD's don't have to make this trade off (disembowel).

    This is why I'd really like to see (and would love) and eq based caster. You could even throw in another stat pack here. There definitely is not one in Imperian and it would vary up the dispersion of statpacks/classes in Demonic.

    @labil there are times I actually miss old animate (when I'm in wytchen)
    image
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's okay Chad, I want Witch Elves too. We're just not ever going to get them. :(
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
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