Countering reflections isn't as easy as you're making it out to be when the person knows how to use them. Defiler has one of the two 'effective' tools to do so. No one is great at it as long as the person spams shield behind the reflections. With a full faith bar, it's possible to tank team aggro for a minute or more, easily. There is a reason I keep telling people to learn reflections. If you don't want to be a team player and absorb some aggro, you can also probably just leave.
But you know this and know reflections has been on the short list for a while, so I dunno why you are jumping out in front of reflections. No idea at all.
See: I am not my character. I speak in generalities when I speak on balancing the game. I can objectively look at something and see an issue. The issue of reflections is one that needs addressed whether a class "does" or "doesn't" handle them(reflections) well. It wasn't me as a Defiler saying I as a Defiler can't handle reflections well so omg please fix them. It was more coming from a player of the game that sees something as a large scale issue and that it needs brought in line. The point in my post was that gaining 10 reflections for a measly 30% faith(less if you have artis) is just absolutely wrong and a core mechanic issue. There are classleads already and I hope they're strongly considered for the health of the game.
If I want to argue another side(since we are apparently our characters) I could/can say:
I can however switch to a class, you're right. This does not solve the issue for those 'classes" that cannot handle reflections well in group combat. So I guess the answer could be for those classes that do not handle Reflection spamming well, to be get fixes so that they do. But come on, this isn't a good fix at all. The better fix is to bring reflections in line so again we can have a healthier game for all.
Edit: For clarity- When I say I am not my character or we aren't our characters. That means we have to be able to look through personal crusades and what makes our character's life easier when it comes to game balancing. I'm not Tyden, if this was Tyden posting well I'd want everything except Demonic to get neutered to the floor. Hope that clears that up for those that were confused.
Man, the idea of making (just) bard neutral is pretty lol as things stand. Obviously not in play anyway, but the idea that it was just floated in a fairly earnest "what's the problem" manner tickles me. To be fair "not alllllll demonic", and importantly, not the demonic that probably matters.
Plz get rid of reflection ritual because Septus' use of it makes me cry real tears.
I would guess that you mean that the masochism affliction is the answer to reflections? Galt. Its also not -that- hard to prio that high while you have them, it was way more effective against old barrier. I am however pretty sure when it comes to reflections that the classlead that's up would handle that issue. Because as long as attacks don't remove reflections in a way it should it doesn't matter what class you are, it will still suck to face reflections from rituals.
Defiler : I spoke a bit with you about it Tyden, the upfront damage is very high for the class, I wouldn't mind having that looked at and it would be nice if you guys who currently use it test it out detailed and come with suggestions.
A little wild and crazy idea....
Regardless of it being demonic / magick / anti-magick, all sides kinda pushed damage and nothing but damage for a long time until people hit those really artied out people doing incredible amount of damage and we suddenly start to nerf the same things again (that was apparently fine previously), and sadly I don't think we adjusted the game to that yet. I am of course exaggerating but I wouldn't mind the team-fights lasting a bit longer because that's what I enjoy when I play, I am still thinking some kind of diminishing returns (like aetolia added) to combat in groups would be interesting so smaller teams actually "dares" to engage more and while not bypassing numbers at least makes it more interesting. For me its not interesting in playing none contested shardfalls / caravans bla bla bla I rather have a smaller group going after it as well for the fighting, imo.
I think the desire for bard is less the desire for the PvP mechanics and more a desire to be a musical mayhem maestro. ------------ Unless you're doing a last-minute reflections ritual with an aff stack on you, masochism is unlikely to break it. You're more likely to have metrazol or a prone on you that stops using the ritual at all than having the masochism sneak through. It can happen, but again, not a reliable counter. ------------ The upfront damage for Defiler is less than Druid (Alv does like 150 actual to me out the gate), and overwhelm v high entropy are comparable, just to put it in perspective. The big difference is you can delay the druid since there isn't a lengthy timebomb resource, and the finishers are a 40% insta that is effectively ~200 damage with hps from 400-600 being common (hellsight reclaim) compared to the ability to ramp up bellow to 300+ on top of the ravage in the combo followed by either a quad germinate for another fast burst or another bellow if at 100%.
That is why I have said and keep saying that entropy falloff and bellow tweaks are the first steps needed to bring it in line. Some of the other stuff is also lol (eg rebuke), but those are the main issues. If one of the people complaining about them would post those leads, I'd gladly comment in support. ------------ I dunno what Aetolia added, but focus fire disincentives are a mechanic I support. It's a tricky thing to get right, though. Another Place had point-based affs, and there was a positioning buff that started at 3+ people, reducing damage and aff points dealt to 66% (total 200% of 300% offensive capability), then scaling down as more were added to keep the value at about 200%. The downside is that ineffective teammates can be doubly detrimental to a team, and then "someone" will rage at your allies about their targeting.
It's also magickal for balance reasons, mechanical reasons, and circle structure reasons. It's one of the "draw" classes, like Defiler, Monk, Priest etc, and whilst there was some noise made about voice not being magickal early on with bard, artistry and thespia have always been seen as magickal.
Could bard be made neutral? Maybe. Could any class be made neutral in the same fashion? Yeah. Does that mean it's a good idea? No.
That's also a lazy answer. As a draw class, it's been pretty shitty at it until recent years. The guild struggled to attract and retain members who wanted to do anything other than boff and make stuff with a FEW notable exceptions.. "Some noise made about," blahblahblah. It's in the HELP file. That's not some noise. That's how it was designed, right out of the gate, and set in stone via official lore. It's not like a player-driven thing like the convoluted ways in which people tried to justify Saboteur skills as neutral in the early years of the game. WTF does circle structure even mean in this context? Mechanics/balance is a laughable answer given the state of the game and your vocal opposition to anything that kills you. Bards being restricted to Magick has always made no sense to me. As a 'draw' class, it would do far better thematically to be game-wide. The admin has been telling me they were adamantly opposed to releasing papercrafting to the rest of the game and yet here we are. Sounds like you don't wanna deal with fighting other bards to me.
Edit:
Just...also. Maybe try using a different class?
Good lort, the forums have always been ridiculous but they've elevated to a whole new level of chest beating nonsense.
I only began using reflection ritual again because I saw others doing it. Galty see Galty do, like with sentries.
If someone has reflections up, they're not attacking, much like if they're spamming shield. The counter is to switch targets, or use one of the (various) methods that can deal with reflection spam. If a team can't swap targets or get rid of reflections efficiently, that isn't a problem with reflections, it's a problem with how people are playing.
And for reference, the sole classlead up about reflections so far is mine. It's unsubmitted because I was and am on the fence about reflection ritual. Making it cost more faith or give less reflections per use both seem like good options, but getting rid of it entirely seems unnecessary and far too much of a knee-jerk reaction.
Man, the idea of making (just) bard neutral is pretty lol as things stand. Obviously not in play anyway, but the idea that it was just floated in a fairly earnest "what's the problem" manner tickles me. To be fair "not alllllll demonic", and importantly, not the demonic that probably matters.
Plz get rid of reflection ritual because Septus' use of it makes me cry real tears.
'as things stand' being the key part. I'd agree with that. In a perfect world, it'd be adapted to suit. My issue is primarily with the fact that the logic behind the no is a nonsense argument instead of, "No thanks, that's not work we are interested in doing." I am okay with a no, just not with trash answers.
TBH, I don't trust the admin to ever make major changes in a thoughtful manner, especially with matters related to combat/balance.
There are likely mechanical changes that could be made. Just off the top of my head:
Allow RAZE skills to pierce some combination of 3 reflection/rebounding/shields per use - such that someone could shield under reflection and lose both the shield and a reflection, or you could raze without to take 3 reflections. This number might need balanced down to two, (or more realistically shield/rebounding + 1 reflection or two reflections) in order to make it balanced.
However my preferred go-to solution though is just switching Reflection with Icestorm. If you want access to the strongest defensive Ritual post prismatic nerf, you have to give up investing in anything other than Moradeim to capstone.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
The revisionist history is amazing. Yours also isn't the only lead. It'd help if you could get the whole picture once in a while.
E: "Just swap targets": Attack targetA - targetA reflects -> swap B -> targetB reflects, targetA starts offense again -> repeat 2 more times, maybe 3. That's a massive swing of time that demands using it to compete, or the primary target on your team is going to drop. I mean, it's not like Magick is particularly great at 'just swap targets', and when they do, that's exactly what I do. Source: Consistently prioritized.
E: "Just swap targets": Attack targetA - targetA reflects -> swap B -> targetB reflects, targetA starts offense again -> repeat 2 more times, maybe 3. That's a massive swing of time that demands using it to compete, or the primary target on your team is going to drop. I mean, it's not like Magick is particularly great at 'just swap targets', and when they do, that's exactly what I do. Source: Consistently prioritized.
Switching targets was the solution given to Prismatic as well, and it didn't work. Either the Reflection ritual needs more of an opportunity cost, or the solution to negating it needs to be easier to handle.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
I don't think there's a world in which reflection ritual in its current state is balanced. I am, however, fairly ambivalent about nerfing it until or unless damage/movement stuff is tuned so that the influx of newer players doesn't just get exploded without them. As far as bard, I think there's likely better things to spend time on than making another 3 classes neutral, though I'm not against it, and if they do make another 3 neutral it's likely that Bard has to be the one from magick given that Runeguard is largely pointless as each circle already has a knight class, Mage and Druid are draw classes (and druid is the ranged class). Though I suppose you could do renegade/Assassin and re-merge them and pull probably Ranger or Predator from AM
Though I suppose you could do renegade/Assassin and re-merge them and pull probably Ranger or Predator from AM
Merge Assassin, Renegade, and Predator into one class with Knifeplay, a consolidated version of Predation/Sabotage/Spatium, and Hypnosis. What could go wrong?
Most classes suck at countering reflections. Checking my logs in team fights my defensive reflection useage has only been countered once. Thats once in nine months of game play.
Being able to chain reflections is too strong. Buffing its faith usage to 100% would be cool with me.
Most classes suck at countering reflections. Checking my logs in team fights my defensive reflection useage has only been countered once. Thats once in nine months of game play.
As a general matter, I feel like regaining faith during combat is too strong. There should be more thought behind throwing out large rituals.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
Most classes suck at countering reflections. Checking my logs in team fights my defensive reflection useage has only been countered once. Thats once in nine months of game play.
As a general matter, I feel like regaining faith during combat is too strong. There should be more thought behind throwing out large rituals.
Can't offer during combat? Nerf the faith gain from pk kills?
Most classes suck at countering reflections. Checking my logs in team fights my defensive reflection useage has only been countered once. Thats once in nine months of game play.
As a general matter, I feel like regaining faith during combat is too strong. There should be more thought behind throwing out large rituals.
Can't offer during combat? Nerf the faith gain from pk kills?
I was going to suggest something like 'cannot gain faith within X seconds/minutes of performing an aggressive action against another player', but that would negate the faith gain from pk kills and I'm not sure I'm ready to do that.
So I might say 'cannot gain faith from mobile corpses within X minutes of performing an aggressive action' and 'faith gains from player kills are halved'.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
Hmm, I need to view some logs on Druid because I haven't really seen those numbers as average attacks. On the other hand, I don't really like to compare two classes with entire different mechanisms and gameplay.
A faith adjustment to reflections is probably not a bad idea, I am still leaning on that reflections need to be removed on a more fixed basis and by then it might not be a huge issue anymore, but having classes remove 1 and sometimes 0 reflections in teams, as it currently "works", is most likely the major culprit behind how strong it is.
Even though I don't agree with switching target being the best solution to the entire problem behind reflections, smart targetting is really part of combat and shouldn't be disregarded. Same has been done against wood heart, bronze tomes et cetera.
Adjusting how faith is gained in and out of combat is a bit tricky though. I don't hear the same discussion about people being annoyed about person X using too many meteors / icestorms / flux and parting of floods et cetera, its about removal / reflections and both are up on classleads so I suppose that adjusting those kinda solve the underlaying issue?
------------ I dunno what Aetolia added, but focus fire disincentives are a mechanic I support. It's a tricky thing to get right, though. Another Place had point-based affs, and there was a positioning buff that started at 3+ people, reducing damage and aff points dealt to 66% (total 200% of 300% offensive capability), then scaling down as more were added to keep the value at about 200%. The downside is that ineffective teammates can be doubly detrimental to a team, and then "someone" will rage at your allies about their targeting.
I wouldn't really touch afflictions at this point, but yea, something like this would be kinda nice. The actual numbers would of course require quite some testing. People will rage at allies regardless of this being here or not, its all part of when you are winning and losing. But you can at least teach ineffective teammates to be better at it, harder to teach them not to obliterated instantly in teams
It's unusual to see remove used twice in a fight by one individual, with how much faith it costs. It is a powerful skill, but I personally think it's also a great equaliser. The people most likely to be removed should also be good at getting back to a fight fast, whether by dint of class skills or simply being fast - It takes maybe 10 seconds for me to path back to a fight after I'm removed, though some locations can take marginally longer, in which case I'll use a class skill or something.
When the best counter to a skill is PATH TRACK DAVE, is it really a problem?
As for reflection, report 661 seems to grossly misunderstand a basic feature of reflections - Which is understandable, as it's a somewhat counter-intuitive way for it to work. You can only remove one reflection per combo, regardless of whether you do 1, 2, 3 or even 4 hits. This is to keep reflections useful vs combo classes. Some classes absolutely do cope better with reflections, but at this point, as per report 628, I feel like the best solution is to just change the ritual a bit.
My preferred solution to reflection ritual is to reduce the number of reflections it gives.
I'm not a huge fan of remove as it is mainly due to the RNG elements of it.
Sometimes you get hit with remove and like you say Galt you get thrown to an areas about 10-20 seconds walk away which seems fair enough. Its a very long CC for an instant cast ability but as a one off its not bad.
My issue with it is more when it rng throws you to somewhere crazy far away. I've had walk backs at some points take over a min. I'm mostly fine with remove but if you were tweaking it a little I'd say make it only throw the person to the adjacent area but increase the "flying" in one spot time to compensate.
Something like that would normalise the CC time and takes away the RNG part of it.
--
Reducing the number of reflections would work well enough for a tweak to reflection ritual.
As for reflection, report 661 seems to grossly misunderstand a basic feature of reflections - Which is understandable, as it's a somewhat counter-intuitive way for it to work. You can only remove one reflection per combo, regardless of whether you do 1, 2, 3 or even 4 hits. This is to keep reflections useful vs combo classes. Some classes absolutely do cope better with reflections, but at this point, as per report 628, I feel like the best solution is to just change the ritual a bit.
My preferred solution to reflection ritual is to reduce the number of reflections it gives.
Forgive my bad sense of logic but I thought that 5 reflections being removed 1 at a time was kinda equal to 10 reflections being removed 2 at a time..
10 or 5 reflections, still the ability at this point is bugged and it has to be fixed first and foremost to not completely ignore attacks, regardless of fix beyond that.
The idea with removal being only adjacent area seems interesting, tweaking time to compensate air-time is also not a bad idea!
It's unusual to see remove used twice in a fight by one individual, with how much faith it costs. It is a powerful skill, but I personally think it's also a great equaliser. The people most likely to be removed should also be good at getting back to a fight fast, whether by dint of class skills or simply being fast - It takes maybe 10 seconds for me to path back to a fight after I'm removed, though some locations can take marginally longer, in which case I'll use a class skill or something.
When the best counter to a skill is PATH TRACK DAVE, is it really a problem?
It's not a bug that a combo can only remove one reflection.
It's deliberately set up that way.
Also, not all professions are created equal in movement terms. I have professions that can get back in 5~ seconds if I'm removed, and others that have to walk the distance. I don't see removal as a problem, personally, because it costs 100% faith or 75% with the artifact. The situation also matters, the presence of travel block effects, indoor, outdoor etc.
Removal absolutely is a powerful ritual, but it's the 5th ritual in the tree with a very high faith cost.
Its not about combo-classes not removing dual reflections at the moment.. its about reflections not being removed at all due to whatever bug is causing it, sorry for not making that obvious by now.
I'll try to demonstrate what I mean..
Person A hits person X (who has reflections) with attack Y (any attack..... or a combo...)
Person X loses 1 reflection!
Person Z then attack person X right after person A with another attack.
Person X loses 0 reflection due to a bug.
Person H attacks person X right after person A and Z with yet another attack.
Person X loses 0 reflection due to being bugged.
Person A hits again on bal/eq.
Person X loses 1 reflection again.
This is the bug... Several people attack 1 person and only 1 reflection is removed on the first persons attack <- Not deliberate.
Multiple attacks within a short window can't remove multiple reflections, regardless of how many different people attack or what attacks they use.
If I have two reflections, and A, B and C all hit me within a half second window, I will lose one reflection. This is intended and has been brought up and explained both on the forums and during bug day, and iirc, during the last classlead round.
EDIT:
Regarding summoner: I'm not sure why people are convinced that the change to flash completely ruined the class. It was not a big change. The relapse only fires if the target is below 60% health, and that's the same as it was before the last classlead round, and the relapse can't be intensified and doesn't hit as hard. The change simply means the target has to have epilepsy when the relapse hits for it to do damage, or it will instead apply epilepsy.
It's not like the damage got gutted across the board or anything. The damage potential of one skill just got put behind a (relatively easy to pass) gate.
Comments
But you know this and know reflections has been on the short list for a while, so I dunno why you are jumping out in front of reflections. No idea at all.
Plz get rid of reflection ritual because Septus' use of it makes me cry real tears.
Defiler : I spoke a bit with you about it Tyden, the upfront damage is very high for the class, I wouldn't mind having that looked at and it would be nice if you guys who currently use it test it out detailed and come with suggestions.
A little wild and crazy idea....
Regardless of it being demonic / magick / anti-magick, all sides kinda pushed damage and nothing but damage for a long time until people hit those really artied out people doing incredible amount of damage and we suddenly start to nerf the same things again (that was apparently fine previously), and sadly I don't think we adjusted the game to that yet. I am of course exaggerating but I wouldn't mind the team-fights lasting a bit longer because that's what I enjoy when I play, I am still thinking some kind of diminishing returns (like aetolia added) to combat in groups would be interesting so smaller teams actually "dares" to engage more and while not bypassing numbers at least makes it more interesting. For me its not interesting in playing none contested shardfalls / caravans bla bla bla I rather have a smaller group going after it as well for the fighting, imo.
------------
Unless you're doing a last-minute reflections ritual with an aff stack on you, masochism is unlikely to break it. You're more likely to have metrazol or a prone on you that stops using the ritual at all than having the masochism sneak through. It can happen, but again, not a reliable counter.
------------
The upfront damage for Defiler is less than Druid (Alv does like 150 actual to me out the gate), and overwhelm v high entropy are comparable, just to put it in perspective. The big difference is you can delay the druid since there isn't a lengthy timebomb resource, and the finishers are a 40% insta that is effectively ~200 damage with hps from 400-600 being common (hellsight reclaim) compared to the ability to ramp up bellow to 300+ on top of the ravage in the combo followed by either a quad germinate for another fast burst or another bellow if at 100%.
That is why I have said and keep saying that entropy falloff and bellow tweaks are the first steps needed to bring it in line. Some of the other stuff is also lol (eg rebuke), but those are the main issues. If one of the people complaining about them would post those leads, I'd gladly comment in support.
------------
I dunno what Aetolia added, but focus fire disincentives are a mechanic I support. It's a tricky thing to get right, though. Another Place had point-based affs, and there was a positioning buff that started at 3+ people, reducing damage and aff points dealt to 66% (total 200% of 300% offensive capability), then scaling down as more were added to keep the value at about 200%. The downside is that ineffective teammates can be doubly detrimental to a team, and then "someone" will rage at your allies about their targeting.
Edit:
Just...also. Maybe try using a different class?
Good lort, the forums have always been ridiculous but they've elevated to a whole new level of chest beating nonsense.
If someone has reflections up, they're not attacking, much like if they're spamming shield. The counter is to switch targets, or use one of the (various) methods that can deal with reflection spam. If a team can't swap targets or get rid of reflections efficiently, that isn't a problem with reflections, it's a problem with how people are playing.
And for reference, the sole classlead up about reflections so far is mine. It's unsubmitted because I was and am on the fence about reflection ritual. Making it cost more faith or give less reflections per use both seem like good options, but getting rid of it entirely seems unnecessary and far too much of a knee-jerk reaction.
TBH, I don't trust the admin to ever make major changes in a thoughtful manner, especially with matters related to combat/balance.
Allow RAZE skills to pierce some combination of 3 reflection/rebounding/shields per use - such that someone could shield under reflection and lose both the shield and a reflection, or you could raze without to take 3 reflections. This number might need balanced down to two, (or more realistically shield/rebounding + 1 reflection or two reflections) in order to make it balanced.
However my preferred go-to solution though is just switching Reflection with Icestorm. If you want access to the strongest defensive Ritual post prismatic nerf, you have to give up investing in anything other than Moradeim to capstone.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
E: "Just swap targets": Attack targetA - targetA reflects -> swap B -> targetB reflects, targetA starts offense again -> repeat 2 more times, maybe 3. That's a massive swing of time that demands using it to compete, or the primary target on your team is going to drop. I mean, it's not like Magick is particularly great at 'just swap targets', and when they do, that's exactly what I do. Source: Consistently prioritized.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
Edit: I am absolutely kidding plzno
Like a daydream.. or a fever
So I might say 'cannot gain faith from mobile corpses within X minutes of performing an aggressive action' and 'faith gains from player kills are halved'.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
Hmm, I need to view some logs on Druid because I haven't really seen those numbers as average attacks. On the other hand, I don't really like to compare two classes with entire different mechanisms and gameplay.
A faith adjustment to reflections is probably not a bad idea, I am still leaning on that reflections need to be removed on a more fixed basis and by then it might not be a huge issue anymore, but having classes remove 1 and sometimes 0 reflections in teams, as it currently "works", is most likely the major culprit behind how strong it is.
Even though I don't agree with switching target being the best solution to the entire problem behind reflections, smart targetting is really part of combat and shouldn't be disregarded. Same has been done against wood heart, bronze tomes et cetera.
Adjusting how faith is gained in and out of combat is a bit tricky though. I don't hear the same discussion about people being annoyed about person X using too many meteors / icestorms / flux and parting of floods et cetera, its about removal / reflections and both are up on classleads so I suppose that adjusting those kinda solve the underlaying issue?
When the best counter to a skill is PATH TRACK DAVE, is it really a problem?
As for reflection, report 661 seems to grossly misunderstand a basic feature of reflections - Which is understandable, as it's a somewhat counter-intuitive way for it to work. You can only remove one reflection per combo, regardless of whether you do 1, 2, 3 or even 4 hits. This is to keep reflections useful vs combo classes. Some classes absolutely do cope better with reflections, but at this point, as per report 628, I feel like the best solution is to just change the ritual a bit.
My preferred solution to reflection ritual is to reduce the number of reflections it gives.
10 or 5 reflections, still the ability at this point is bugged and it has to be fixed first and foremost to not completely ignore attacks, regardless of fix beyond that.
The idea with removal being only adjacent area seems interesting, tweaking time to compensate air-time is also not a bad idea!
It's deliberately set up that way.
Also, not all professions are created equal in movement terms. I have professions that can get back in 5~ seconds if I'm removed, and others that have to walk the distance. I don't see removal as a problem, personally, because it costs 100% faith or 75% with the artifact. The situation also matters, the presence of travel block effects, indoor, outdoor etc.
Removal absolutely is a powerful ritual, but it's the 5th ritual in the tree with a very high faith cost.
Its not about combo-classes not removing dual reflections at the moment.. its about reflections not being removed at all due to whatever bug is causing it, sorry for not making that obvious by now.
I'll try to demonstrate what I mean..
Person A hits person X (who has reflections) with attack Y (any attack..... or a combo...)
Person X loses 1 reflection!
Person Z then attack person X right after person A with another attack.
Person X loses 0 reflection due to a bug.
Person H attacks person X right after person A and Z with yet another attack.
Person X loses 0 reflection due to being bugged.
Person A hits again on bal/eq.
Person X loses 1 reflection again.
This is the bug... Several people attack 1 person and only 1 reflection is removed on the first persons attack <- Not deliberate.
Fix THAT, then look at whatever adjustment.
Multiple attacks within a short window can't remove multiple reflections, regardless of how many different people attack or what attacks they use.
If I have two reflections, and A, B and C all hit me within a half second window, I will lose one reflection. This is intended and has been brought up and explained both on the forums and during bug day, and iirc, during the last classlead round.
EDIT:
Regarding summoner: I'm not sure why people are convinced that the change to flash completely ruined the class. It was not a big change. The relapse only fires if the target is below 60% health, and that's the same as it was before the last classlead round, and the relapse can't be intensified and doesn't hit as hard. The change simply means the target has to have epilepsy when the relapse hits for it to do damage, or it will instead apply epilepsy.
It's not like the damage got gutted across the board or anything. The damage potential of one skill just got put behind a (relatively easy to pass) gate.
By that logic, people should only ever get to comment on classes they're actively playing, which would be a terrible, terrible idea.