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Classleads Fall 2018

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  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 272 ✭✭✭
    What I take from that:

    Nerf Defiler, Berserker, Shaman, Summoner, buff everything else.

    I'm kidding, of course, but some things do stand out. It's interesting to see how high the damage is on the "true burst" classes like Bard and Mage, but that they also take a lot more damage as a balancing factor. Kill death ratios are crazy, in some cases, and I really find it interesting that the average levels differ so much.
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 194 mod
    Doer is the person doing the damage or kill.  Distinct doer is the number of distinct persons that damaged or attacked someone.  Doee is the person receiving the damage or kill.  Distinct doee is the number of distinct persons that were damaged or killed.  So for bard, there were 5 people who were bards that were attacked or killed by another player, but only 3 people who were bards that attacked or killed another player.

    Like I said, this is just a short time period, around three real life days.  It's a pretty new project.

    Also, average damage is damage per person damaged.  So an attack that did 300 damage to 3 people would be recorded as 3 300s not 1 900.  

    This also does not include self-damage.  So if there is damage that you do to yourself from an attack, it does not influence the averages.  
    Mereis
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 194 mod
    I forgot to point out too that the average damage is per hit, not per unit time.  So classes like pred that do several small hits at once are going to have lower damage averages, but may still be able to do more damage per second than others.  
    NiloLiahn
  • OhmOhm Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    I think this chart is misguiding. Why? because it fails to take into account affliction pressure of a class. Not all classes churn out very high damage. Instead, they have alternate kill routes involving afflictions. Damage is just one of the parameters that is easy to track, but is misguiding if considered without the affliction capacity of a class.
    image
  • DeklanDeklan Member Posts: 79 ✭✭
    Three days explains the DIV for ranger, was wondering about that. The idea of no one ever landing a hit on a ranger was absurd, even with longshot incendiaries. No one's that good.
    Nilo
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 272 ✭✭✭
    That's interesting - I'm guessing attacks that don't do any damage, such as the buildup combos of Bard, don't count for the damage average then?

    As for not taking affliction pressure into account, kill-death ratio kind of indicates that, and it's difficult to quantify afflictions because some classes have fine control and pick exactly which afflictions they deal (Such as Shaman) whilst others have less control over their afflictions (Such as Bard), some have much larger ranges of afflictions and more powerful afflictions (Such as Shaman) whilst some have fairly limited selections without access to the affs necessary to even soft lock (Such as Bard), so even with a similar affliction rate, it'd be weird to compare the two classes based just on how quickly they afflict.
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 98 ✭✭
    Yea can you explain what each column is. I'm unsure what some mean.
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 194 mod
    edited October 2018
    Distinct Doer: Number of distinct players that match the category and did damage to someone else or killed someone else

    Distinct Doee: Number of distinct players that match the category and received damage or were killed

    Kills: Total number of kills by players while playing this category

    Deaths: Total number of deaths by players while playing this category

    Average Damage By: Average amount of damage per hit done across all players and attacks while playing this category

    Average Damage To: Average amount of damage per hit suffered by all players across all attacks while playing this category

    Average Doer Level: Average overall level of players causing damage or death while playing this category (weighted by number of hits/deaths, not just average of distinct players)

    Average Doee Level: Average overall level of all players suffering damage or death while playing this category (same weighting)
    Mereis
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭
    The chart is also lacking in sample size. Like... bard and assassin are 3 and 2 individuals being tracked. Among which Galt and Kabaal are being counted who are going to be serious outliers on how the class typically performs. It's fun to look at, but mostly meaningless as a guidepost for any real discussion. (in addiion to the already made point that damage is only one avenue of kill method). 

    Also (tongue firmly in cheek), bards OP. 620 average damage. 

    Rip Krys 

     Health   : 390/390  


  • TydenTyden Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Edit:

    My forum didnt update to page 6.

    Interesting data especially on Druid.
  • RycRyc Member, Beta Testers Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Tyden said:
    Looking at that chart im not sure how you came to defiler standing out @Nilo . Outside of just securing kills the damage seems in line with the average. Unless im missing something? 

    It also seems to be taken over a period in which demonic was extremely dominate. Id also like to know the time frame
    Kills to Deaths. Shaman stands out almost as much in that regard tbf though
    Nilo
  • TydenTyden Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I'm also curious on if defiler and summoner damage being consistent is factoring into the kills they achieve. 

    If more magick were using mage and druid for example it honestly feels like the damage output and consistency would be superior.

    Just an initial on the fly thought given the chart.

    Edit:  this is also based solely on group fighting. 
  • NiloNilo Member Posts: 4
    Ryc said:
    Tyden said:
    Looking at that chart im not sure how you came to defiler standing out @Nilo . Outside of just securing kills the damage seems in line with the average. Unless im missing something? 

    It also seems to be taken over a period in which demonic was extremely dominate. Id also like to know the time frame
    Kills to Deaths. Shaman stands out almost as much in that regard tbf though
    According to this chart Shaman's K/D is 2.66 and Defiler's K/D is 7.25. Druid is actually closer to defiler than Shaman, with a 3.0. Shaman and Druid are rarely complained about(in AM at least), but defiler and summoner are an issue in every fight.

    Defiler's KD is more than double Shaman and Druid both, but this is still really limited data.
  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    is it just me or is there no renegade on the table
    currently tentatively active
    (may vanish for periods of time)
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 261 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    It's also from the past three days. As Dec has said twice now. (which would also be why Rene likely isn't there)
    It's not a good standpoint to be arguing from. Also keep in mind it's including groups where you likely aren't targeting Defilers first. Lots of variables going into it. Also is this pre-Imperian conversion values? An *average* of 500 damage across all attacks sounds wildly inaccurate. So is that average of 500, actually an average of ~50?
    Nilo
  • RycRyc Member, Beta Testers Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Nilo said:
    Ryc said:
    Tyden said:
    Looking at that chart im not sure how you came to defiler standing out @Nilo . Outside of just securing kills the damage seems in line with the average. Unless im missing something? 

    It also seems to be taken over a period in which demonic was extremely dominate. Id also like to know the time frame
    Kills to Deaths. Shaman stands out almost as much in that regard tbf though
    According to this chart Shaman's K/D is 2.66 and Defiler's K/D is 7.25. Druid is actually closer to defiler than Shaman, with a 3.0. Shaman and Druid are rarely complained about(in AM at least), but defiler and summoner are an issue in every fight.

    Defiler's KD is more than double Shaman and Druid both, but this is still really limited data.
    Sample size is too small to draw any real meaningful conclusions. (and shaman is realistically stronger than any of those classes other than defiler right now, the saving grace being that it's also mostly more complex than those classes, and therefor harder to actually make work) 
    Nilo
  • TydenTyden Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    A class kd doesn't mean much.....like I said the consistent damage output factors in. Also as @Kalynthari mentioned maybe in this chart Defiler wasn't targeted often as it looks like in terms of kills Demonic seemed dominate in this chart.

    In terms of damage output through the chart defilers damage is actually 17th on the list. Which since they're achieving the most kills in this chart seems to be a decent study on their dps ouput.

    There are a variety of things going on and reviewing the chart it does seem like there are some very potent classes maybe not being used that would be better options within a group.
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 194 mod
    Damage is pre-conversion.  So in Imperian numbers, those would be divided by 11.

    Here is a different view of the same data.  This is the average damage done in each six second period in which damage was done.  So you can think of it as a measure of damage per unit time, but it's only a rough measure.  


    NiloMereis
  • TydenTyden Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
    @Dec

    So how do you look at this chart and find balance? Do you use these charts when thinking of how to balance classes? I mean there are some pretty silly numbers being shown. 
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 261 ✭✭✭
    I'm guessing that is post conversion, so that's actually 450/6s for Summoner for example. Mage seems quite silly, I'm guessing Hunter's is averaged due to brainmelt windows, Diabolist for moon windows. Etc.
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 441 ✭✭✭
    I am impressed.
  • EochaidEochaid Member Posts: 98 ✭✭
    You can't focus on the chart too much. There are three kinds of lies lies damned lies and statistics. :)

    Just a joke but you know what I mean.

    We all know hunter is dam scary in groups and has an amazing damage finisher that stacks super well in groups and yet they have no kills in the chart. We haven't seen many people play many of these classes recently.

    Some of the numbers do make sense like Runeguard and DK Knight classes having greater damage than defiler. They have greater sustained damage from the get go than Defiler but Defiler is securing more kills. This adds up to how we know they work. Knights reave spam out-damages Defilers sustained damage early on but Defiler has a big burst move which is pretty good for kill stealing. 

    The top damagers at 500+ being Bard, Druid, Shaman, Ranger, Hunter and Assassin makes sense as well. They all have a very strong damage route and option but yea even with that have to factor in who is playing so take it with a pinch of salt.

    EG I'm assuming Defilers damage is spread across three people for the average Elora(unartifacted), me (mostly level 2 mid level arti range), Tyden(all level 3 high tier arti range) so its a good example of what the class can do with a range of artis.

    Templar looks to be spread over nine people and I've not seen any of the high tier Templars fighting recently. We've not seen a fully artied Septus hitting his damage or similar stuff, which is why I'd guess that templars damage is a bit lower than I'd expect.

  • ElrithElrith Member Posts: 47 ✭✭
    If nothing else the chart however tells other important things like popular professions / burst possibility / numbers of players. 
    What I do love though is that with more actual numbers / formulas and such it is much easier to discuss the classes than wild guessing that causes nothing but irritation.

    Thanks Dec!
    Eochaid
  • OhmOhm Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    Really this list is a rank by burst potential - which is one way of looking at the world
    image
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 272 ✭✭✭
    The data doesn't even work for burst potential, though.

    Defiler will be skewed low because it's the average damage of every 6 second window in which they deal damage, whilst others - Bard, Mage - will be skewed high because they don't deal damage much if at all during the buildup, so when they DO begin damaging, it'll be higher averages.

    We're only being shown a slice of data - but this means the admin can track way, way more as time goes on! We can draw some inferences from this data, especially in some cases where the numbers really, really stick out, but it's not a big enough slice for any big conclusions. I doubt they'll show us more data, which is fair, because we'd just argue in circles over it! 
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 194 mod
    Statistics are subject to interpretation, and it's hard to separate the classes from the people playing those classes.  The point here isn't for the statistics to be some definitive source of "truth" but to be a common point of reference for discussion going into classleads.  In the absence of any statistics we'd still have people talking about burst damage and kill death ratios, but those are almost always anecdotal and subject to the bias of the person reporting.  So think of this as a way to impart some objectivity to the numbers, even if the meaning of the numbers is still up for interpretation.
    MereisOhmElrith
  • RycRyc Member, Beta Testers Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Dec said:
    Statistics are subject to interpretation, and it's hard to separate the classes from the people playing those classes.  The point here isn't for the statistics to be some definitive source of "truth" but to be a common point of reference for discussion going into classleads.  In the absence of any statistics we'd still have people talking about burst damage and kill death ratios, but those are almost always anecdotal and subject to the bias of the person reporting.  So think of this as a way to impart some objectivity to the numbers, even if the meaning of the numbers is still up for interpretation.
    Are these numbers raw or after resists?
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    I'm guessing that is post conversion, so that's actually 450/6s for Summoner for example. Mage seems quite silly, I'm guessing Hunter's is averaged due to brainmelt windows, Diabolist for moon windows. Etc.
    Some classes like Assassin, Bard, and Mage don't really -do- damage until they're ready to kill you. As a result, the 'average damage per six second window' for those classes will be much higher than break offenses or attrition offenses that rely on steady damage into some conditional.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
  • TydenTyden Member Posts: 110 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Naruj said:
    I'm guessing that is post conversion, so that's actually 450/6s for Summoner for example. Mage seems quite silly, I'm guessing Hunter's is averaged due to brainmelt windows, Diabolist for moon windows. Etc.
    Some classes like Assassin, Bard, and Mage don't really -do- damage until they're ready to kill you. As a result, the 'average damage per six second window' for those classes will be much higher than break offenses or attrition offenses that rely on steady damage into some conditional.
    Does that make that kind of damage acceptable though? Especially considering the affliction output of a bard for one example 
  • NarujNaruj Member, Beta Testers Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    Tyden said:
    Naruj said:
    I'm guessing that is post conversion, so that's actually 450/6s for Summoner for example. Mage seems quite silly, I'm guessing Hunter's is averaged due to brainmelt windows, Diabolist for moon windows. Etc.
    Some classes like Assassin, Bard, and Mage don't really -do- damage until they're ready to kill you. As a result, the 'average damage per six second window' for those classes will be much higher than break offenses or attrition offenses that rely on steady damage into some conditional.
    Does that make that kind of damage acceptable though? Especially considering the affliction output of a bard for one example 
    If your class is designed around 'damage burst', and you cannot burst people through damage, then your class is incapable of filling its role.

    I'm also confused by the 'affliction output' question?

    Dizziness, Recklessness, Nausea, Peace, Claustrophobia, Loneliness, Impatience, Masochism, Stupidity, Vertigo, Addiction, Nausea, Frozen. This is the complete list of Voice afflictions that contribute to damage - and all but three of these afflictions are focusable. Bard is not  a scary affliction class, they are a class that stacks otherwise low priority afflictions into damage.
    You grabbed my hand and we fell into it
    Like a daydream.. or a fever
    Galt
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