Buffing incinerate would be quite a simple and good route for summoners to get a working damage kill route.
Its a clear telegraph that high damage is coming, it only lasts for a short time, if you sit there and let the summoner free cast with incinerate on you you should die. Right now its not too hard to tank even without and defenses or hindering.
For Deathknights I was thinking a few tweaks to them could buff them up to the same level as templar or Runeguard.
Taking fleshburn, slowing the proc but giving the proc dry blood.
Adjust the time on vivisect to be more akin to grizzly but based on limb breaks.
This last bit would (not) be so much fun in smallish groups. That said... eh. My attitude is that if something like this exists, I just really don't have to ever log in.
The dry blood very well might be quite solid/okay (as we Runeguards have Bolt), but it really depends on just how crazy it would be in teams. The danger is something like... summoner is already super nightshade heavy (even though enlightenment itself is not nightshade affs), and a decent summoner essentially forces you to turn off rebounding COMPLETELY in teams, allowing the DK to simply hit hit hit. So really, I wonder if DK should be a bleed knight in the first place, if we're not going to continue to move towards more and more neutral classes. Then again, it's a similar story with Outrider and any bleed knight (minus the necessity to keep rebounding off). So I guess it's a question of whether or not the result is "jesus, this is strong when team comp is right (even in small teams, because most things get truly nuts in big teams, of course), but I guess I can try to counter it by bringing something equally strong".
Rebounding in teams is always a gamble. If dryblood would be crazy in teams, then why aren't your RGs spamming longs?
Dryblood and fixing the vivisect bug wouldn't do enough, though. Ideally, I'd like to swap Necromancy skills to combos somewhere between what Templars have (essence gating) and what RGs have (cooldown gating). Not ready to push what I have so far. Hard to give any additional buffs to vivisect without just making it an insta again, which was problematic on its own.
E: For summoner, the only thing I have down so far is making soulwrack's hp threshold give 30% taint while moving stupidity to intensification. That gives some more power to use taint while having ash or incin running.
Septus suggested giving flash back half the relapse damage, but part of my problem was flash was that it made you just want to spam flash, and that heads back in the same direction.
I definitely spam longs, but I am trying to imagine me spamming longs alongside someone who synergizes with my nightshade aff that they can't give (Outrider actually doesn't benefit in the same way because it already gives dryblood), and is in turn helping me by making rebounding just flat out a bad idea (a "you will die" idea). Add even one assassin in (we could do that part over in magick) and now you have double block, with one of those blocks being a knight, and all three contributing non-overlapping nightshade affs. That is awfully nice, and is possibly too nice. That said, I mean what I said that I'd hope that if it were considered, it would be tested a lot, and discussed a lot, not that I feel confident it's an absolute no-go. But I think it would be wrong to say it's a no-brainer, just go right ahead and add it.
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you.
Damage Taken: 6 psychic (raw damage: 11)
You wince as the curved thorns on a flail of Ravening Hunger tear lacerations into your skin.
Tyden leans forwards with a contemptuous sneer and whispers a few words. Suddenly, chaotic thoughts overcome your mind.
You are afflicted with entropy.
Damage Taken: 37 psychic, mental (raw damage: 60)
Sudden pain washes over you as the torment strikes you.
Damage Taken: 7 psychic (raw damage: 13)
155 damage, nausea, entropy.
At the time of the above combos I was runed, favoured, with solid resists, even to psychic, as shaman is one of the only classes that can buff their psychic resists. My psychic was hovering around 50% resistance, my physical around 45%. Tyden did not use psysap, I was not sensitive during the combos and I was not prone or otherwise debuffed.
The above combos on are about a 3.1 to 3.2 second balance. I have a level 3 shield, artifact armour, resist rings, etc. This amount of damage is great - Even if you weren't building to any burst at all. This damage, plus building to bellow/seed burst and with all the survival tricks Defiler has, is ridiculous.
Here's a couple of logs from Arach's PoV, showing that he melts even faster than I do:
For comparison, a Shaman combo in the finisher range, with a significant number of curse affs - 8 or more - Does less than the buildup combos of a defiler. A bard combo doesn't do much damage, if any, and the bard will start hitting for 100-200 a combo building up higher when in finisher range. Berserker - Same thing. Damage will only approach 100-150 per combo once the Berserker is in the end run of their offense.
Defiler hits harder with the buildup combos than some classes do with their finishers. It also afflicts alongside them, hits one of the weakest resists, and can effectively drop most players psychic resistance to 0% or even into the negative, just using psysap - With resist ring, magicks bane and no class buffs, I sit at a little over 30% psychic resistance and psysap drops me to around 1%. Others have stated that it pushes them past 0, into negative resists. This is ridiculous, and not just a smidge. This is even bolstered by collar and int arties, because a chunk of the psychic damage is mental typed. For similar instances - Runeguard damage flares, etc - there are either strict limits on how often they can flare it, it's not impacted by int/collar, etc.
Here's some Runeguard combos, to compare:
Pellerin's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
Pellerin reaves you furiously with a dwarven battleaxe.
A prickly, stinging sensation spreads through your body.
You are afflicted with sensitivity.
Pellerin concentrates, and a searing image of the sowulu rune suddenly flares on your skin.
Damage Taken: 35 psychic (raw damage: 55)
That's 166 damage, 2 afflictions and sowulu requires I'm undeaf for it to hit. This is with a level 3 axe, +3 str, and the combo costs 3.64 seconds balance.
So, to compare:
150 damage/2 affs on 3.2 balance as Defiler. This comes to around 46.8 dps.
166 damage, 2 affs, on 3.64 seconds balance as a similarly artifacted Runeguard. That comes to 45.6 dps.
This is vs the same target, using the same defences. Both individuals are similarly artifacted. The Runeguard is obliged to strip deafness to do this, or the combo drops to 130~ damage. The Defiler can do the above damage with two affs and builds up entropy. The Defiler also has higher resists than the Runeguard, can handle afflictions better, can hinder more easily, can flood, and even has an escape skill to bypass walls. Additionally, the Defiler has better holding.
Runeguard is regarded as a solid, powerful profession. It's the best of the Knights and could possibly stand some tweaks in some places. Even ignoring the burst damage entirely, Defiler is outdoing the Runeguard in damage, afflictions, team utility, escape ability.
Throw the burst in on top of that, with entropy being a timebomb, and it becomes glaringly apparently and inarguable that Defiler needs changes.
Also, you've still not posted your resists. I wonder why?
I'm curious on the relationship of bard and defiler.
Comparison of classes across circle that aren't knights or assassin/renegade is just awful. Moreover comparing one class that is strong/OP to another class that is strong/OP is even worse. Bard could likely stand some more nerfs. Defiler absolutely needs some nerfs. That's what classleads are for.
You don't have to play a class to be able to comment on it or, thankfully, file reports for it. I thought we were past that gatekeeping nonsense by now.
I was asking because you have all of these comments and ideas on it - but I haven't seen you in that profession. You don't have to add snarky comments to answer my question.
While Galt is maybe not the greatest source of balancing feedback, it is also true that regularly fighting against a profession gives you a good look at how good/bad it is across the spectrum, provided you're not only fighting one person in that profession. (Defiler does need nerfs, but almost assuredly fewer than Galt thinks)
For Deathknights I was thinking a few tweaks to them could buff them up to the same level as templar or Runeguard.
Taking fleshburn, slowing the proc but giving the proc dry blood.
Adjust the time on vivisect to be more akin to grizzly but based on limb breaks.
Deathknight doesn't need too much, in fact, it's only 2 nerfs different from what used to be absurd. Vivisect definitely should be reworked to a finisher, but I'm not a huge fan of tying it to limbs. Fleshburn is your finisher enhancement, the one you would want to look at primarily for changes is either Teeth or Rending (could maybe tweak agony to something different as well). Should also likely add a similar set of skills to what templar/runeguard have in runeflares/crusade, but that may be outside the scope of this classlead round.
Rebounding in teams is always a gamble. If dryblood would be crazy in teams, then why aren't your RGs spamming longs?
Dryblood and fixing the vivisect bug wouldn't do enough, though. Ideally, I'd like to swap Necromancy skills to combos somewhere between what Templars have (essence gating) and what RGs have (cooldown gating). Not ready to push what I have so far. Hard to give any additional buffs to vivisect without just making it an insta again, which was problematic on its own.
E: For summoner, the only thing I have down so far is making soulwrack's hp threshold give 30% taint while moving stupidity to intensification. That gives some more power to use taint while having ash or incin running.
Septus suggested giving flash back half the relapse damage, but part of my problem was flash was that it made you just want to spam flash, and that heads back in the same direction.
I disagree with Septus on the relapse, but do support summoner getting some tweaks, not sure what it needs exactly though. Rebounding in teams is primarily a gamble only against demonic, which isn't necessarily a problem, but does certainly color the statement. Longsword strats in teams generally require more skill and coordination than the average player in Imperian currently has. That may change with time/the influx of new players.Lartus said:
What kind of attacks in Engineer need buffing?
My experience with Engineer is limited, but ultimately it just feels very disjointed. It has very little place in teams given that it almost entirely operates on a unique set of afflictions/statuses and doesn't makeup for that with a tremendous amount of utility. There may not be a clean answer for it unfortunately.
If you read my post you'd see all I was really comparing was the burst potential off the classes and how they both want to achieve the same situation. It wasn't a hard compare, I know the two classes are different.
I told you that I stopped reading after your team utility comment. I am at this point removing myself from the thread and will hope that the correct changes are placed not just a crusuade to neuter a class opposing one self. I am sorry, but you have lost credibility to me as you are only pinpointing opposition "changes". Nobody on "OUR" side is claiming Defiler is fine, we understand changes need to be made. However, it does not feel there is any give on "YOUR" side when it comes to these "nerf" suggestions. I even read a classlead suggestion all Druid damage should be buffed? I certainly do hope bard gets looked at objectively as I hope defiler also gets that same focus.
I will appreciate @Eoghan's post and back away as I think all that I have needed to say has been said.
Defiler's nonfinisher damage is probably overtuned. The damage off the entropy build is probably the culpret for that, though I think the rate of bloodrain ticking pretty much guaranteeing permanent sensitivity is something most people tend to overlook - but this is reallistically the single biggest boost to flat dps the class gets. Any changes should factor that, because if bloodrain is nerfed that will be a major downgrade. That said, the psychic damage off of entropy build was a very late change in the current iteration of defiler, so its pretty reasonable to assume the numbers might need tweaks.
All that said, I just took a glance at classleads and honestly feel like people are throwing as much at the wall as they can and hoping something sticks where defiler is concerned. Defiler absolutely needs good defence because defiler has basically no hinder built into their killpath. In a team context this does make them better than classes like assassin or hunter who tank with their offense, but they're not unique in that regard. You can argue they can run/entangle spam at present, but if entropy gets made to have a sane decay (which I think everyone can agree is reasonable), that will no longer be the case. Either nerf the offense or the defence. Filing for both is just fishing and weakens potentially legitimate concerns.
Summoner was overnerfed. More specifically, a ton of the classes power was all tied up in flash. This absolutely needed a nerf because it just shredded people, but saying that taking that away and the class can stand on its own just isn't the case. One v one, sure. Team wise its now suffering from mage syndrome. I think the change was very good because it highlighted some pretty glaring difficiencies. Those shouldn't be ignored.
Deathknight is tough because the kit does lend itself towards a salve style, but pure toxin salve offenses are really tough because most of the salve-based toxin affs are either borderline op (calo/maz) or hard hinder (double broken arms/legs). Honestly I think deathknight's problem is just what templars was: it needs something that makes brute force nightshade less of a no brainer. For that reason I wouldn't try to make vivisect the goal, because at the end of the day knights are pretty awesome. I think the insta being the secondary threat has worked out very well for templar so might be a good route to go down for dk too. I'd also repurpose rend rather than fb if you want a nightshade boost, because fb has potential to be hardcore once the route is less simple to hard counter with stock curing. I do think the model of enhancements only doing one thing has served us very well up to this point though, so think that is worth preserving where possible. I'd go burning nerves rather than dryblood though: I think dryblood would probably just synergise too well with teeth and nerves has worked out really well on templar. Agony is pretty awesome now that you can hotswap enhances, I'd keep that as-is personally.
I have some small templar tweaks to file when I get back home to a real computer. Dazzle downgrade, a way to deal with rage so some classes aren't atone immune.
A damage based time bomb class that can't do enough damage with its time bomb to kill people very quickly becomes Predator v3.0.
Address the buildup and defensibility of Bard and Defiler if you'd like to, but please don't ruin the damage. We saw this happen to Crescentcut, and the class has never recovered.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
I don't get why anyone would compare the dps of classes with insane hinder capability, to defiler whose only real threat is its damage. I'm not sure where you were going with, with the Shaman/RG comparison to Defiler. It's like comparing a Druid's afflicting capability to a Renegade's.
One v one, sure. Team wise its now suffering from mage syndrome.
I feel like it's the opposite, to be honest. Team wise it can still do things fine, 1v1 it is very very predictable, and rather trivial to live against once you've seen it. It's not a "personal issue" it really is a balance issue.
I've agreed with you Galt that Defiler does need looking into, and even on a lot of things they have that needs looking into, in our talks. But you're proposing to nerf literally everything in Defiler has, in exchange for... Nothing. Let's not turn Defiler into Demonic's version of Predator.
Everyone has to be willing to adjust their own stuff in order to get the game balanced, IMO a more balanced game for everyone will be a much funnier one. Normally the people who play the classes actively has the best ideas about their own classes and normally people playing their own class are the most blind to how good / bad it is, i.e. if you never fight class X yourself its hard to understand those who do. That's most likely because we are all biased in one way or another.
THAT said.
Its really hard to discuss and test things properly when everyone (including myself of course) is so offensive / defensive about their abilities. In that aspect I hate classleads, because its a system of limited time / thinking / reports that are mostly turning into a slug-fest of who can nerf the other side the most to get the upper hand until the next round. Its almost never about how to really balance things out. I mean, if all sides are agreeing that defiler i.ex. needs to be tweaked it would be so much better we had a way to do that beside 10 classleads that seek to shred it to pieces and 10 pages of angry comments on said files and pay-back-reports on the other side.
Combat council attempt 2.0 now with the game being active again? Please?
P.S not trying to point fingers! Just saying how I feel and gather what I hear whenever there is a classlead going on.
I really wish that everyone had EXACTLY the same toolkit at a circle level for this reason. I know exclusive mechanics are baked into the IRE format and I know it's "interesting" or something but it seems absolutely not worth it to have "unique" mechanics, and I'd love to see them absolutely minimized at every opportunity.
Well, at one point you really need to start looking at what people do with the toolkit as well, otherwise smart / good / whatever you want to call it gameplay is a none-factor and therefore makes it absolutely pointless for me, at least, to participate in.
Using all your different tools in order to find great combinations is imo a very important factor, especially nowadays with the heavy team-oriented combat.
But for me that's another topic and I don't want to smash the two together saying that's the issue because then it will boil down into everyone having everything equal and its a straight powerhouse / artie-level factor. That's not a route I'd like to see.
It wouldn't be just the opposite? If two circles have the same toolkit, and I win, it is AWFULLY hard for my opponent to argue that it's because x is OP (it very well may be, and then people can just "do it back" until everyone is fed up enough to change it). And sure, a few things I can "just copy", but overall good play isn't that easily "just copied", and I think that is why most NEW classes in any IRE are always neutral.
Anyway, for now, for sure, continue with the general discussion
I really wish that everyone had EXACTLY the same toolkit at a circle level for this reason. I know exclusive mechanics are baked into the IRE format and I know it's "interesting" or something but it seems absolutely not worth it to have "unique" mechanics, and I'd love to see them absolutely minimized at every opportunity.
We are always going to be on opposite sides of this argument, and that's fine. But circle homogamy sounds dreadfully boring.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
I get your side (mostly, I think). I just see (well enough) how it plays out, and the reality of unique mechanics is... pretty frustrating in multiple ways (one of which is, of course, no one ever "wins", everyone is obviously just using OP stuff, heh).
One last thing - I do think it would be hilarious (and also just... great, in general) for there to be a semi-regular "not my circle event", where, I think it would work best on the beta server. Invite everyone to play on beta for say, a week... but... there would be a published "okay, AM plays only Demonic, Magick plays AM, Demonic plays Magick" guideline for the "event" (which would rotate), and you could of course always use neutral classes as part of your team comps. That way no coding for admin.
I get your side (mostly, I think). I just see (well enough) how it plays out, and the reality of unique mechanics is... pretty frustrating in multiple ways (one of which is, of course, no one ever "wins", everyone is obviously just using OP stuff, heh).
People will rationalize losses no matter what the event. If it isn't class balance, it'll be numbers or conflict mechanics or artifacts.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
I'm still new, so I don't really get the nuances of deeper, arti'd, high-level combat yet. I'm a software guy, so I assume that high level, high arti'd, experienced combat is more of a "tip of the pyramid" concern instead of a "big picture" concern. For example, gameplay in tabletop DnD tends to fly off the rails at high level...but high level generally comprises lower volume of usage than low-mid level, and so sacrifices are made for high level balance if it means the higher use areas are better engineered. I figure Galt, Septus, and Tyden are in that "tip of the pyramid" demographic that poses a lot of complications, whereas the real sweetspot of play/design is probably between level 80-100?
I assumed this game is a "Paper, Rock, Scissors" setup where classes are great against some, but are meant to fail against others. Thus balancing a class away from pockets of success runs counter to the desired meta strategy. They should all have strategies against each other, and there should be real fear against some match ups. I know this is all very surface-level and lacking the technical depth of knowledge these multi-year veterans possess, but it'd be great if we didn't acquire tunnel vision around our own specific bubble of experience and instead focus on the "vision" of each class and build/adjust towards that instead of reacting.
From the newbie perspective, I've played Predator, Diabolist, Summoner, and Hunter. Only Predator and Diabolist have reached a level to begin PvP, so I'll only comment on those. I'm in the 80s for Diabolist and Predator, and nearing 80 with Hunter.
-Predator is rough, and I think it lacks focus on how it's suppose to contribute in group fights as well as prevail in duels against specific enemy types. Crescent Cut does solid damage against prone, but has very few efficient means to ensure prone for meaningful periods of time. This means that it pairs very well with classes that can prone and immobilize, but requires rather extensive luck and scripting to avoid limb blocking. I do like how Bear Quarter and Hostage provides a constant "Alert - Predator in room" flavor, as an ignored Predator may grab you if his Hostage timer is ignored, and Bear Quarter is a threat to keep limbs salved or else face "The Wrath of Bear Power". Flavor-wise, I think Beastmastery doesn't belong with Predators...Predators are a rogue/stealth class, and carrying a troop of animals is odd and against the style. I do enjoy making the animals talk, though. In a nutshell, Predator suffers from extreme fragility, a lack of focus with the addition of BeastMastery, and a daunting learning curve regarding stances and toxins. It's not an intuitive class and feels very frustrating to play, reliant on a few low percentage tricks and general harassment. It wears leather armor but benefits from strength, thus wielding a heavier shield...but ultimately still feels extremely vulnerable. I've actually won a few duels, but the profession still feels "off" in a very difficult to describe manner. Pinging @Grantz and @Nilo for their perspective, as they are both awesome dudes who have a lot more experience than I. Nilo in particular is always out there testing Predator's abilities, and we would benefit from his opinion.
-Diabolist is fun, and is currently my "main". I picked it specifically as a "Demon Predator", as I enjoyed the knife fighting and multi-attacks of Predator but just hit a brick wall once I progressed into the 80s. Diabolist provides some of the same "feel" of Predator with multi-knife attacks and stealth, while the counter-style of animal summoning is replaced with very focused, useful, and thematically appropriate demon/ghost summons that conveniently disappear when you aren't using them. The class offers a few "easy buttons" that are simple to counter but provide pressure in group fights (Ritualism Whirlwind and Demon Catharsis), while Duality in Ritualism opens up Moon/Sun for damage spam or a glob of afflictions. Nightfall is my "Script ALL THE THINGS" skill line, and I generally forget about it until Nightfall somehow drops and I'm no longer auto-healing/reflecting/clotting/shattering. I've never actually beaten anyone in a duel, but Diabolist "feels" pretty good from my low-level, 80s perspective. Pinging @Ishmarfor her experience, as she's a rad chick with more experience.
Question and maybe @Eoghan can answer this best. is monk revamp still a thing? Or lost in the annals of history?
It may happen eventually but there aren't current plans for it
Well, good thing Ohm asked point blank... I guess this makes sense but people have left monk alone only because "it is going to get a total overhaul" and "you'll totally destroy it 1 v. 1 in the meantime" - the answer demogick was given after their infuriating tactics prompted Septus to find something even more infuriating (Team Monk). I don't know where we go from here, but I doubt anyone is "fine" with monk.
EDIT: for the record that was all "fine" at the time, and made sense with the hard lesson of predator on the books, but man, I hope something is going to happen I guess. We haven't seen a lot (or any) of Team Monk, but really, that's exactly because it's a strat that you use to make another team flip a table.
Buffing Incinerates damage or causing it to tick faster could give them the extra finishing moves they need to go for damage kills.
Please don't do either of these things, especially increasing the tick speed which would absolutely ruin a summoner's ability to keep incinerate active for its true purpose (free intensifies) due to the already fine line trod by the taint generation/use ratio.
Question and maybe @Eoghan can answer this best. is monk revamp still a thing? Or lost in the annals of history?
It may happen eventually but there aren't current plans for it
Well, good thing Ohm asked point blank... I guess this makes sense but people have left monk alone only because "it is going to get a total overhaul" and "you'll totally destroy it 1 v. 1 in the meantime" - the answer demogick was given after their infuriating tactics prompted Septus to find something even more infuriating (Team Monk). I don't know where we go from here, but I doubt anyone is "fine" with monk.
EDIT: for the record that was all "fine" at the time, and made sense with the hard lesson of predator on the books, but man, I hope something is going to happen I guess. We haven't seen a lot (or any) of Team Monk, but really, that's exactly because it's a strat that you use to make another team flip a table.
People have already discussed some changes. I expect that Septus/Juran will post some stuff when they have free time.
Comments
Was is the key word.
It isn't any more.
Summoners damage is quite demonstrably low
The dry blood very well might be quite solid/okay (as we Runeguards have Bolt), but it really depends on just how crazy it would be in teams. The danger is something like... summoner is already super nightshade heavy (even though enlightenment itself is not nightshade affs), and a decent summoner essentially forces you to turn off rebounding COMPLETELY in teams, allowing the DK to simply hit hit hit. So really, I wonder if DK should be a bleed knight in the first place, if we're not going to continue to move towards more and more neutral classes. Then again, it's a similar story with Outrider and any bleed knight (minus the necessity to keep rebounding off). So I guess it's a question of whether or not the result is "jesus, this is strong when team comp is right (even in small teams, because most things get truly nuts in big teams, of course), but I guess I can try to counter it by bringing something equally strong".
Dryblood and fixing the vivisect bug wouldn't do enough, though. Ideally, I'd like to swap Necromancy skills to combos somewhere between what Templars have (essence gating) and what RGs have (cooldown gating). Not ready to push what I have so far. Hard to give any additional buffs to vivisect without just making it an insta again, which was problematic on its own.
E: For summoner, the only thing I have down so far is making soulwrack's hp threshold give 30% taint while moving stupidity to intensification. That gives some more power to use taint while having ash or incin running.
Septus suggested giving flash back half the relapse damage, but part of my problem was flash was that it made you just want to spam flash, and that heads back in the same direction.
Tyden's aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
99 damage, a seed, nausea.
Tyden swings a flail of Ravening Hunger powerfully at you, ravaging your flesh.
142 damage, nausea, entropy.
Tyden swings a flail of Ravening Hunger powerfully at you, ravaging your flesh.
151 damage, nausea, entropy.
155 damage, nausea, entropy.
At the time of the above combos I was runed, favoured, with solid resists, even to psychic, as shaman is one of the only classes that can buff their psychic resists. My psychic was hovering around 50% resistance, my physical around 45%. Tyden did not use psysap, I was not sensitive during the combos and I was not prone or otherwise debuffed.
The above combos on are about a 3.1 to 3.2 second balance. I have a level 3 shield, artifact armour, resist rings, etc. This amount of damage is great - Even if you weren't building to any burst at all. This damage, plus building to bellow/seed burst and with all the survival tricks Defiler has, is ridiculous.
Here's a couple of logs from Arach's PoV, showing that he melts even faster than I do:
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/Id_m_eoX
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/MkgSSwsk
For comparison, a Shaman combo in the finisher range, with a significant number of curse affs - 8 or more - Does less than the buildup combos of a defiler. A bard combo doesn't do much damage, if any, and the bard will start hitting for 100-200 a combo building up higher when in finisher range. Berserker - Same thing. Damage will only approach 100-150 per combo once the Berserker is in the end run of their offense.
Defiler hits harder with the buildup combos than some classes do with their finishers. It also afflicts alongside them, hits one of the weakest resists, and can effectively drop most players psychic resistance to 0% or even into the negative, just using psysap - With resist ring, magicks bane and no class buffs, I sit at a little over 30% psychic resistance and psysap drops me to around 1%. Others have stated that it pushes them past 0, into negative resists. This is ridiculous, and not just a smidge. This is even bolstered by collar and int arties, because a chunk of the psychic damage is mental typed. For similar instances - Runeguard damage flares, etc - there are either strict limits on how often they can flare it, it's not impacted by int/collar, etc.
Here's some Runeguard combos, to compare:
That's 166 damage, 2 afflictions and sowulu requires I'm undeaf for it to hit. This is with a level 3 axe, +3 str, and the combo costs 3.64 seconds balance.
So, to compare:
150 damage/2 affs on 3.2 balance as Defiler. This comes to around 46.8 dps.
166 damage, 2 affs, on 3.64 seconds balance as a similarly artifacted Runeguard. That comes to 45.6 dps.
This is vs the same target, using the same defences. Both individuals are similarly artifacted. The Runeguard is obliged to strip deafness to do this, or the combo drops to 130~ damage. The Defiler can do the above damage with two affs and builds up entropy. The Defiler also has higher resists than the Runeguard, can handle afflictions better, can hinder more easily, can flood, and even has an escape skill to bypass walls. Additionally, the Defiler has better holding.
Runeguard is regarded as a solid, powerful profession. It's the best of the Knights and could possibly stand some tweaks in some places. Even ignoring the burst damage entirely, Defiler is outdoing the Runeguard in damage, afflictions, team utility, escape ability.
Throw the burst in on top of that, with entropy being a timebomb, and it becomes glaringly apparently and inarguable that Defiler needs changes.
Also, you've still not posted your resists. I wonder why?
Comparison of classes across circle that aren't knights or assassin/renegade is just awful. Moreover comparing one class that is strong/OP to another class that is strong/OP is even worse. Bard could likely stand some more nerfs. Defiler absolutely needs some nerfs. That's what classleads are for.
While Galt is maybe not the greatest source of balancing feedback, it is also true that regularly fighting against a profession gives you a good look at how good/bad it is across the spectrum, provided you're not only fighting one person in that profession. (Defiler does need nerfs, but almost assuredly fewer than Galt thinks)
Deathknight doesn't need too much, in fact, it's only 2 nerfs different from what used to be absurd. Vivisect definitely should be reworked to a finisher, but I'm not a huge fan of tying it to limbs. Fleshburn is your finisher enhancement, the one you would want to look at primarily for changes is either Teeth or Rending (could maybe tweak agony to something different as well). Should also likely add a similar set of skills to what templar/runeguard have in runeflares/crusade, but that may be outside the scope of this classlead round.
I disagree with Septus on the relapse, but do support summoner getting some tweaks, not sure what it needs exactly though. Rebounding in teams is primarily a gamble only against demonic, which isn't necessarily a problem, but does certainly color the statement. Longsword strats in teams generally require more skill and coordination than the average player in Imperian currently has. That may change with time/the influx of new players.Lartus said: My experience with Engineer is limited, but ultimately it just feels very disjointed. It has very little place in teams given that it almost entirely operates on a unique set of afflictions/statuses and doesn't makeup for that with a tremendous amount of utility. There may not be a clean answer for it unfortunately.
see above about comparing classes.
If you read my post you'd see all I was really comparing was the burst potential off the classes and how they both want to achieve the same situation. It wasn't a hard compare, I know the two classes are different.
@Galt
I told you that I stopped reading after your team utility comment. I am at this point removing myself from the thread and will hope that the correct changes are placed not just a crusuade to neuter a class opposing one self. I am sorry, but you have lost credibility to me as you are only pinpointing opposition "changes". Nobody on "OUR" side is claiming Defiler is fine, we understand changes need to be made. However, it does not feel there is any give on "YOUR" side when it comes to these "nerf" suggestions. I even read a classlead suggestion all Druid damage should be buffed? I certainly do hope bard gets looked at objectively as I hope defiler also gets that same focus.
I will appreciate @Eoghan's post and back away as I think all that I have needed to say has been said.
Defiler's nonfinisher damage is probably overtuned. The damage off the entropy build is probably the culpret for that, though I think the rate of bloodrain ticking pretty much guaranteeing permanent sensitivity is something most people tend to overlook - but this is reallistically the single biggest boost to flat dps the class gets. Any changes should factor that, because if bloodrain is nerfed that will be a major downgrade. That said, the psychic damage off of entropy build was a very late change in the current iteration of defiler, so its pretty reasonable to assume the numbers might need tweaks.
All that said, I just took a glance at classleads and honestly feel like people are throwing as much at the wall as they can and hoping something sticks where defiler is concerned. Defiler absolutely needs good defence because defiler has basically no hinder built into their killpath. In a team context this does make them better than classes like assassin or hunter who tank with their offense, but they're not unique in that regard. You can argue they can run/entangle spam at present, but if entropy gets made to have a sane decay (which I think everyone can agree is reasonable), that will no longer be the case. Either nerf the offense or the defence. Filing for both is just fishing and weakens potentially legitimate concerns.
Summoner was overnerfed. More specifically, a ton of the classes power was all tied up in flash. This absolutely needed a nerf because it just shredded people, but saying that taking that away and the class can stand on its own just isn't the case. One v one, sure. Team wise its now suffering from mage syndrome. I think the change was very good because it highlighted some pretty glaring difficiencies. Those shouldn't be ignored.
Deathknight is tough because the kit does lend itself towards a salve style, but pure toxin salve offenses are really tough because most of the salve-based toxin affs are either borderline op (calo/maz) or hard hinder (double broken arms/legs). Honestly I think deathknight's problem is just what templars was: it needs something that makes brute force nightshade less of a no brainer. For that reason I wouldn't try to make vivisect the goal, because at the end of the day knights are pretty awesome. I think the insta being the secondary threat has worked out very well for templar so might be a good route to go down for dk too. I'd also repurpose rend rather than fb if you want a nightshade boost, because fb has potential to be hardcore once the route is less simple to hard counter with stock curing. I do think the model of enhancements only doing one thing has served us very well up to this point though, so think that is worth preserving where possible. I'd go burning nerves rather than dryblood though: I think dryblood would probably just synergise too well with teeth and nerves has worked out really well on templar. Agony is pretty awesome now that you can hotswap enhances, I'd keep that as-is personally.
I have some small templar tweaks to file when I get back home to a real computer. Dazzle downgrade, a way to deal with rage so some classes aren't atone immune.
Would be nice to do some more predator stuff too.
Address the buildup and defensibility of Bard and Defiler if you'd like to, but please don't ruin the damage. We saw this happen to Crescentcut, and the class has never recovered.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
THAT said.
Its really hard to discuss and test things properly when everyone (including myself of course) is so offensive / defensive about their abilities. In that aspect I hate classleads, because its a system of limited time / thinking / reports that are mostly turning into a slug-fest of who can nerf the other side the most to get the upper hand until the next round. Its almost never about how to really balance things out. I mean, if all sides are agreeing that defiler i.ex. needs to be tweaked it would be so much better we had a way to do that beside 10 classleads that seek to shred it to pieces and 10 pages of angry comments on said files and pay-back-reports on the other side.
Combat council attempt 2.0 now with the game being active again? Please?
P.S not trying to point fingers! Just saying how I feel and gather what I hear whenever there is a classlead going on.
Using all your different tools in order to find great combinations is imo a very important factor, especially nowadays with the heavy team-oriented combat.
But for me that's another topic and I don't want to smash the two together saying that's the issue because then it will boil down into everyone having everything equal and its a straight powerhouse / artie-level factor. That's not a route I'd like to see.
Anyway, for now, for sure, continue with the general discussion
Like a daydream.. or a fever
One last thing - I do think it would be hilarious (and also just... great, in general) for there to be a semi-regular "not my circle event", where, I think it would work best on the beta server. Invite everyone to play on beta for say, a week... but... there would be a published "okay, AM plays only Demonic, Magick plays AM, Demonic plays Magick" guideline for the "event" (which would rotate), and you could of course always use neutral classes as part of your team comps. That way no coding for admin.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
I assumed this game is a "Paper, Rock, Scissors" setup where classes are great against some, but are meant to fail against others. Thus balancing a class away from pockets of success runs counter to the desired meta strategy. They should all have strategies against each other, and there should be real fear against some match ups. I know this is all very surface-level and lacking the technical depth of knowledge these multi-year veterans possess, but it'd be great if we didn't acquire tunnel vision around our own specific bubble of experience and instead focus on the "vision" of each class and build/adjust towards that instead of reacting.
From the newbie perspective, I've played Predator, Diabolist, Summoner, and Hunter. Only Predator and Diabolist have reached a level to begin PvP, so I'll only comment on those. I'm in the 80s for Diabolist and Predator, and nearing 80 with Hunter.
-Predator is rough, and I think it lacks focus on how it's suppose to contribute in group fights as well as prevail in duels against specific enemy types. Crescent Cut does solid damage against prone, but has very few efficient means to ensure prone for meaningful periods of time. This means that it pairs very well with classes that can prone and immobilize, but requires rather extensive luck and scripting to avoid limb blocking. I do like how Bear Quarter and Hostage provides a constant "Alert - Predator in room" flavor, as an ignored Predator may grab you if his Hostage timer is ignored, and Bear Quarter is a threat to keep limbs salved or else face "The Wrath of Bear Power". Flavor-wise, I think Beastmastery doesn't belong with Predators...Predators are a rogue/stealth class, and carrying a troop of animals is odd and against the style. I do enjoy making the animals talk, though. In a nutshell, Predator suffers from extreme fragility, a lack of focus with the addition of BeastMastery, and a daunting learning curve regarding stances and toxins. It's not an intuitive class and feels very frustrating to play, reliant on a few low percentage tricks and general harassment. It wears leather armor but benefits from strength, thus wielding a heavier shield...but ultimately still feels extremely vulnerable. I've actually won a few duels, but the profession still feels "off" in a very difficult to describe manner. Pinging @Grantz and @Nilo for their perspective, as they are both awesome dudes who have a lot more experience than I. Nilo in particular is always out there testing Predator's abilities, and we would benefit from his opinion.
-Diabolist is fun, and is currently my "main". I picked it specifically as a "Demon Predator", as I enjoyed the knife fighting and multi-attacks of Predator but just hit a brick wall once I progressed into the 80s. Diabolist provides some of the same "feel" of Predator with multi-knife attacks and stealth, while the counter-style of animal summoning is replaced with very focused, useful, and thematically appropriate demon/ghost summons that conveniently disappear when you aren't using them. The class offers a few "easy buttons" that are simple to counter but provide pressure in group fights (Ritualism Whirlwind and Demon Catharsis), while Duality in Ritualism opens up Moon/Sun for damage spam or a glob of afflictions. Nightfall is my "Script ALL THE THINGS" skill line, and I generally forget about it until Nightfall somehow drops and I'm no longer auto-healing/reflecting/clotting/shattering. I've never actually beaten anyone in a duel, but Diabolist "feels" pretty good from my low-level, 80s perspective. Pinging @Ishmarfor her experience, as she's a rad chick with more experience.
...
That's it for me, I'm done monologuing.
EDIT: for the record that was all "fine" at the time, and made sense with the hard lesson of predator on the books, but man, I hope something is going to happen I guess. We haven't seen a lot (or any) of Team Monk, but really, that's exactly because it's a strat that you use to make another team flip a table.
Please don't do either of these things, especially increasing the tick speed which would absolutely ruin a summoner's ability to keep incinerate active for its true purpose (free intensifies) due to the already fine line trod by the taint generation/use ratio.