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Improving Imperian

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  • OrgolothOrgoloth Member Posts: 3
    Hi!

    I'm new. Level 71, age 18, Hunter, played for a few days.

    One thing that's really discouraging is when all the low level Doubloon Areas have been completely grinded out by high level players.

    I get it. It's easy gold, credits, and doubloons. I think it shows Galt completing the areas in two or three minutes. So why wouldn't high level players completely clear out these areas constantly?

    Unfortunately, that means us new players really have nowhere else to go. I've been told the following when I inquired:

    - "Go to the really annoying areas like Cinua Glades and Ravana Gorge that don't have a uniform target name"

    - "Go to other non-doubloon areas. No, you won't get credits or doubloons, so you'll have to kill hundreds to get a single credit"

    ...see a problem here? If the goal is to attract new players, grow the user base, and convert new players into paying/contributing players...then we kind of have a conflict here. 

    In a nutshell, the message is "There's low level stuff, but all the good stuff is being dominated by super high level veterans, so you newbies have to go play in the crappy areas."

    ...

    Goal - Keep low level areas open, plentiful, and welcoming for new players. 

    Possible Solutions

    - Level lock lower level areas. Higher level people will probably complain, as no one likes change, and this would amount to a "Credit Grinding Nerf". No one likes nerfs, but it would keep high level players in high level areas.

    - Scale higher level areas to provide a better reward. This would incentivize higher level players away from lower level areas. Unfortunately, this might upset the intended "Play Time to Credit Reward Ratio" designed by the makers, or it may turn out that no matter how high you scale it, someone will do the math and determine it's just more efficient to horde the newbie areas.

    - Add more activities that provide daily credits. Harvesting, caravans, mentoring, crafting...reward people for doing things that better the game and their cities. 

    - Add more spawnwaves. Or make every "area" a spawnwave. Sure, you'll get the people who nerd-out and identify the absolute most efficient areas to horde, but at least folks can visit other areas and not feel penalized.
    MereisHavamal
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    Orgoloth said:
    - Level lock lower level areas. Higher level people will probably complain, as no one likes change, and this would amount to a "Credit Grinding Nerf". No one likes nerfs, but it would keep high level players in high level areas.

    - Scale higher level areas to provide a better reward. This would incentivize higher level players away from lower level areas. Unfortunately, this might upset the intended "Play Time to Credit Reward Ratio" designed by the makers, or it may turn out that no matter how high you scale it, someone will do the math and determine it's just more efficient to horde the newbie areas.

    - Add more activities that provide daily credits. Harvesting, caravans, mentoring, crafting...reward people for doing things that better the game and their cities. 

    - Add more spawnwaves. Or make every "area" a spawnwave. Sure, you'll get the people who nerd-out and identify the absolute most efficient areas to horde, but at least folks can visit other areas and not feel penalized.
    1) As someone who's gone through the leveling process... 7? times, I think. Straight to Aspect, I will never be for an option like this. You let people who aren't Aspect participate, yes... But when you level lock areas, you're just **** up an entirely different demographic of people. Particularly those who're aspect but aren't artifacted, and will end up taking 4-5x as long as a lower level does to get their credits. It's not a fix, it just shifts who's getting screwed over.
    2) It wouldn't. People will still go to the areas that require less attention and effort to clear.
    3) Caravans do provide credits. Harvesting would be nice, but you'd need a way to balance it besides 'get your allotment for the month' since that again incentivises less effort (by virtue of inept gatherers having like 15x lower allotment per IG month). Fixing shardfalls would be great, as well. Lowering the hunting breakpoints to every 250 instead of 500 would also be nice.
    4) Is the option I've been saying from the very beginning. There's a ton of areas that aren't in the spawnwave system. There's even a lot of lower level areas that aren't, as well. I get it takes time to create them, but it's something which is sorely needed. It won't affect the doubloon system since that has a daily cap as well.
  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    The Aspect-level areas (according to AREAS) are:

    Khous Village
    Ancient Sewer Ruins
    Demon's Pass
    Schrov'ik Sewers
    the Horde City Schrov'ik
    the Mavitt Woods
    the Vorrak Mines
    Al'drym Woods
    Nagiri Caverns
    Strengmire Orc Camp
    the Gongen Stronghold
    the Isle of Llus
    the Necropolis
    Beneath the Ancient Sewer Ruins
    Crevonix's Tower
    Skegdald
    the Domain of Magglix
    the Iaat Valley

    The bolded are spawnwave areas. Add in the Underworld areas, and you get 13 areas that will be available for Aspects.

    Of those 13, I can only do 5 in a reasonable amount of time (under 2 hours):

    Demon's Pass (1h 52m)
    Necropolis (approximately the same time; I haven't managed to catch it without someone else bashing there, too)
    Nagiri (45m)
    Khous (37m)
    Gongen Stronghold (31m)

    I'm either not tanky enough, or don't kill things fast enough for other areas. This is me, at level 103, with all skills Transcendent except for Weaponry, Concoctions, and Toxins. My artifacts are L1 health/mana bracelets, L1 collar (+damage), Diadem, surcoat, and L1 shield.
    currently tentatively active
    (may vanish for periods of time)
  • RokasRokas Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    Fixing the incentives and providing more options is the way to go.

    I think, instead of having spawnwaves have minimum amounts that they're worth, the minimums should be treated as bonuses. Currently, for my first spawnwave of the day, Redwood Cottons (< 10 minutes) and Demon's pass (~32 minutes) are both worth five credits. For my fifth spawnwave of the day, RC is worth 1 credit and DP is worth 5 credits.  If the minimums were instead bonuses, that would mean DP is always worth four more than RC regardless of when I do it.

    I very much agree with having more areas, and allowing mentors to shard credit would be awesome too. 




    Mereis
  • HavamalHavamal Member Posts: 109 ✭✭
    Unfortunately, unless they re-initialize the building program, more areas isn't going to happen.  I'm not even sure that making the existing areas which aren't spawnwaves into them is going to happen, but I'd love to be wrong.
    Developer of the Valkryior system - forum thread | code repository
    OhmKalynthari
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Sure must be fun being a pessimist about literally everything.

    Would it be possible to have some sort of counter on DOUBLOON AREAS that show when an area is gonna be available to get a doubloon? Rather than just showing either a yes/no value on if you'd obtained one in the past 24 hours.

    eta: Or even add it to COOLDOWNS, so as to not bloat up the doubloon display even more!

    AkumuRokasJalaras
  • DeklanDeklan Member Posts: 79 ✭✭
    Pessimism is great, actually. You're either right or you're pleasantly surprised. 
  • OhmOhm Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
      11520* (imperian)   10/07/2018  A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11521* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11522* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11523* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11524* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11525* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11526* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11527* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11528* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11529* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11530* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11531* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    11532* (imperian) 10/07/2018 A ferocious lion, your loyal companion, ha...
    Don't really need messages of the lion from the lion deck card being slain by someone. Only adds bloat. Can a config be added to disable this message. 



    image
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    Ohm said:
    Don't really need messages of the lion from the lion deck card being slain by someone. Only adds bloat. Can a config be added to disable this message. 

    Screw making it a config... Feels like something that shouldn't even be a message to begin with. Gross.
    Ohm
  • HavamalHavamal Member Posts: 109 ✭✭
    Deklan said:
    Pessimism is great, actually. You're either right or you're pleasantly surprised. 

    Developer of the Valkryior system - forum thread | code repository
  • LartusLartus Member Posts: 442 ✭✭✭
    wow, that's some high expectations there.
  • JalarasJalaras Member Posts: 51
    I will have to say that I truly understand and feel what Org is talking about, as that would run through my mind a lot when I newb'd Imperian like 4 times already.
  • BronachBronach BronachMember Posts: 23
    giving X mentor credits and/or orgcredits, likewise for mentoring that protege to circle 80 and/or aspect
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭
    Orgoloth said:
    - Level lock lower level areas. Higher level people will probably complain, as no one likes change, and this would amount to a "Credit Grinding Nerf". No one likes nerfs, but it would keep high level players in high level areas.

    - Scale higher level areas to provide a better reward. This would incentivize higher level players away from lower level areas. Unfortunately, this might upset the intended "Play Time to Credit Reward Ratio" designed by the makers, or it may turn out that no matter how high you scale it, someone will do the math and determine it's just more efficient to horde the newbie areas.

    - Add more activities that provide daily credits. Harvesting, caravans, mentoring, crafting...reward people for doing things that better the game and their cities. 

    - Add more spawnwaves. Or make every "area" a spawnwave. Sure, you'll get the people who nerd-out and identify the absolute most efficient areas to horde, but at least folks can visit other areas and not feel penalized.
    1) As someone who's gone through the leveling process... 7? times, I think. Straight to Aspect, I will never be for an option like this. You let people who aren't Aspect participate, yes... But when you level lock areas, you're just **** up an entirely different demographic of people. Particularly those who're aspect but aren't artifacted, and will end up taking 4-5x as long as a lower level does to get their credits. It's not a fix, it just shifts who's getting screwed over.
    2) It wouldn't. People will still go to the areas that require less attention and effort to clear.
    3) Caravans do provide credits. Harvesting would be nice, but you'd need a way to balance it besides 'get your allotment for the month' since that again incentivises less effort (by virtue of inept gatherers having like 15x lower allotment per IG month). Fixing shardfalls would be great, as well. Lowering the hunting breakpoints to every 250 instead of 500 would also be nice.
    4) Is the option I've been saying from the very beginning. There's a ton of areas that aren't in the spawnwave system. There's even a lot of lower level areas that aren't, as well. I get it takes time to create them, but it's something which is sorely needed. It won't affect the doubloon system since that has a daily cap as well.


    1) I am an un-artied aspect on a number of characters. I'm totally okay with adjusting it so that people who can bash a significantly smaller portion of the game have an easier time of the upward mobility than Aspects. Gold generation at aspect is definitely higher than gold generation at lower levels. Gold generation = another method of credit acquisition. The complaint is that the game is currently unfriendly to new players. It is, by design, and that's stupid and we should fix it. 

    2) Level capping rewards eliminates the incentive to clear areas significantly easier for those players. 

    3) Our current herb/healing shortage suggests we should probably implement some sort of harvesting incentive. It can scale based on max harvest ability. People who just have the minimal harvest allotment and hit their max get less shinies than people like me who invest significant credits into acquiring all the bonuses so we can keep up with supply. 

    4)  We also need to make a common target for all bashing areas and it needs to be apparent on probe and/or IH. 

    Also, extra double here for providing incentives for those whose primary gameplay is support roles. That means people who organize events, design stuff, harvest, run well-stocked shops, etc. The fact that this game has evolved into something that primarily only gets engagement where there is an achievement or credit reward attached is very apparent when you  make a trip through the shops looking for toadstool, a pack, or any other necessary item. We should fix that. There are ways to mechanically track that. Imperfect systems are not an excuse for avoiding them. All of our current systems are imperfect, so that's a weird barrier to claim. Moar newb friendly + moar support friendly = continuing to build pop and engagement. Do the things. 
    Deklan
  • WyllWyll Member Posts: 349 ✭✭✭

    2. Level capping rewards to clear areas is terrible. Aspects would be limited to areas that take 25+ minutes to clear. So, you'd be forcing Aspects or higher level'd people to hunt for tons of hours to get the same reward a lower level character gets in less time.

    Some aspects are also not arti'd out. DP is actually pretty hard if you don't have tanking artifacts. If you want to clear it in a really unfrustrating way.

    I'm willing to wager the Aspects you see clearing lowbie areas are only doing it the one time to get the doubloon/credit clear reward for the day and then leaving. Maybe it takes an hour to respawn the area. Is it frustrating for a newbie to walk in and see that it's clear? Yeah, it is, but it's all the same if it was another newbie clearing it.

    I go to DP and people are there too. That's kind of how hunting goes and the more people we get, the more crowded we will see areas. I also leave a lowbie area if a newbie if someone is there/if someone is about to hunt. And if I leave and I see someone walking in, I will blow my warhorn for them.

    4. Yeah, agreed completely. This would make hunting in certain areas super easy when they have tons of targets.
    You say, "Oh crap."
    You say, "My bottle is empty."
    Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
    Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭
    @Wyll - So address that. I'm always more in favor of tilting the scales -towards- newer players, though. Everytime. If there's an issue with the high level areas all being massive, add more areas or shorten some of the existing ones. 

    I'm an extremely poor basher who is far, far from tanky and die constantly if I'm not trailing Kabaal and his superpowered bashing. So, like, a bunch of artifacted people are telling me, an unartifacted aspect, how awful it will be for me and I'm telling you I'd rather it be more challenging for me and less challenging for new players for the obvious reason that we need fresh meat. 

    And yes, it is frustrating. I know because I've heard this repeatedly mentioned by newer players who are struggling to find available doubloon areas to bash.
    BronachHavamal
  • HavamalHavamal Member Posts: 109 ✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Aspects get lower levelled areas that take them five minutes.  Newbies get pushed out to stuff that takes them literally hours.  Because f*ck new players, amirite?

    Ive stopped worrying about what areas I bash on Hava or my other characters because "eff you got mine" is quite clearly the prevailing consensus, and I am not going to stifle my enjoyment of the game for people who clearly dont care about my experience, or anyone but their own, really.
    Developer of the Valkryior system - forum thread | code repository
  • OrgolothOrgoloth Member Posts: 3
    Hi! New guy here again. Wanted to provide some follow up time frames from a new player. Im about 75, no arties, Hunter. 

    It takes me about 15 or 20 minutes to clear Weevils. No risk of dying, and I get about 3-5k gold from turning in corpses. 

    It takes me about the same to clear Sanderlings, 15 or 20 minutes. About the same gold, no risk of dying. 

    It it takes me about 25 to 30 minutes to clear Bugs. About 5k gold. 

    Dregs takes me me at least 40 minutes, and I occasionally die from clustered mobs. Maybe 7k gold. 

    Mercenary encampment takes me at least 40 minutes, usually an hour. Very little gold. I die all the time there and have to isolate three or fewer mercs. 

    It it takes me a long time to clear Ravana Gorge and Waelin Bog due to the different names. Probably 45 minutes or more. 

    ...

    i listed this this out as a counterpoint to some folks complaining about taking 25+ minutes to clear out higher areas. We newbies have those same clear times for our areas, and we probably get less gold (I assume). 

    So if “Newbie A” grinds for 60 minutes and gets X credits, and “Aspect B” grinds for 60 minutes and gets X credits, what’s the problem?
    RokasHavamal
  • RokasRokas Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I think if we introduced a command to share spawnwave credit with someone under level 80, the problem would be alleviated and encourage interaction. I am very happy to drag people on my bashing runs, but the truth is that they're only getting experience, even if they're of a high enough level that attacking makes sense.

    I think putting in 25% - 40% of the requisite shards into a leyline would be better than only giving credit to the person who gets the switch would be a healthy change too.

    Also, make the lower level spawnwaves respawn faster.
    KrysalissOhm
  • KrysalissKrysaliss Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭✭
    I really love the idea of sharing spawnwave credit with newer players. Please let us do this. 
    Wyll
  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    The 10% minimum kills for 1 credit was a step in the right direction.

    Could we maybe expand on this so that, if you're below Level 80, 10% of the spawnwave kills would grant you the full credit value upon completion, and 1% grants the 1 credit?
    currently tentatively active
    (may vanish for periods of time)
  • RokasRokas Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    Mereis said:
    The 10% minimum kills for 1 credit was a step in the right direction.

    Could we maybe expand on this so that, if you're below Level 80, 10% of the spawnwave kills would grant you the full credit value upon completion, and 1% grants the 1 credit?

    I'm okay with this, but not okay with this in lieu of my suggestion. A newer player following me around likely won't get 10% kills, but I do think that it would be great for non-synced players.
    Mereis
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    10% would be fine for below 80, I think. That's basically like ~10-30 kills in most areas. Like 35-40-odd in Necro/DP etc.
    1% is a bad idea, I'd say. It would basically incentivise just seeing who's bashing an area, then going to kill 3-4 mobs in that area and going back to afk in city / clear somewhere else while they clear it.
  • WyllWyll Member Posts: 349 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I want to address something here and those crazy low numbers you see on DOUBLOON AREAS held by Galt is because, It's Galt. He's hunting while fully arti'd out with more cards than anyone has any business having(Not shitting on your fun, Galt. I love that you always push the limit.)
    Those aren't standard times and no one should think every Aspect that has arties can clear it in those times. I have a L20 scepter and a plethora of arties and I don't touch those times. My monk with trans'd professions and like.. one strength artifact clears out areas faster than Wyll.
    Some of these times are going to be based on your class and your method of bashing. Consider too that if you have a basher, you're going to save time because of autowalking, and autotargetting etc.
    But I agree, sharing spawnwave credits would be great and then I wouldn't mind taking out newbies to hunt all areas.
    You say, "Oh crap."
    You say, "My bottle is empty."
    Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
    Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
  • HavamalHavamal Member Posts: 109 ✭✭
    "So if “Newbie A” grinds for 60 minutes and gets X credits, and “Aspect B” grinds for 60 minutes and gets X credits, what’s the problem?"


    No one has actually answered this, and its the core problem here.  Especially when aspects are displacing newbies to reduce their own times, which is actively harmful to the game.  I've already had one of the newbies Ive dealt with tell me straight out they gave up on the game because they couldn't compete with these people for hunting space all the time and I have no good rebuttal.
    Developer of the Valkryior system - forum thread | code repository
    GjarrusRyse
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 668 ✭✭✭✭
    Lower level spawnwaves respawning faster is a +1 from me. Still want global bosses to get a little faster.

    Gaining levels could be a daily credit to help nubs while naturally fading away or being a real task as they progress.

    I have no issue tapering down rewards for some areas. Being able to 'pass; my reward to a nub would be nice, but you'd definitely need to minimize lower level area rewards so one person doesn't claim them all for their nublets.

    Shard harvesting being broken is still a pain, if not directly related, since we do get a fair number of low/midbies helping at shardfalls now.

    Also: I hate how level is like 30-40% of the equation for bashing capability, only because it makes this balancing harder.
  • OhmOhm Member Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    Low level bashing also brings up a point on different classes having different bashing capabilities. Significant differences exist between bashing amongst the different classes. So, what might take a 'bashing' class 15 mins to complete might take another 'non-bashing' class 25 mins to complete. I'm not sure if there is a way to balance this. Further, this divergence exists even after Aspect.
    image
  • RyseRyse Member Posts: 87 ✭✭✭
    Ohm said:
    Low level bashing also brings up a point on different classes having different bashing capabilities. Significant differences exist between bashing amongst the different classes. So, what might take a 'bashing' class 15 mins to complete might take another 'non-bashing' class 25 mins to complete. I'm not sure if there is a way to balance this. Further, this divergence exists even after Aspect.
    Out of curiosity, what are the bashing classes?
  • KalynthariKalynthari Member Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    Shaman, or anyone with multi-hitting capabilities, really. Zerker, Diabolist, Knight. Shaman might as well be multi-hitting with how fast it is.
  • AltheiaAltheia Member Posts: 46 ✭✭
    Orgoloth said:
    Hi! New guy here again. Wanted to provide some follow up time frames from a new player. Im about 75, no arties, Hunter. 

    It takes me about 15 or 20 minutes to clear Weevils. No risk of dying, and I get about 3-5k gold from turning in corpses. 

    It takes me about the same to clear Sanderlings, 15 or 20 minutes. About the same gold, no risk of dying. 

    It it takes me about 25 to 30 minutes to clear Bugs. About 5k gold. 

    Dregs takes me me at least 40 minutes, and I occasionally die from clustered mobs. Maybe 7k gold. 

    Mercenary encampment takes me at least 40 minutes, usually an hour. Very little gold. I die all the time there and have to isolate three or fewer mercs. 

    It it takes me a long time to clear Ravana Gorge and Waelin Bog due to the different names. Probably 45 minutes or more. 

    ...

    i listed this this out as a counterpoint to some folks complaining about taking 25+ minutes to clear out higher areas. We newbies have those same clear times for our areas, and we probably get less gold (I assume). 

    So if “Newbie A” grinds for 60 minutes and gets X credits, and “Aspect B” grinds for 60 minutes and gets X credits, what’s the problem?
    I just wanna say, if you're clearing the area completely, you should be getting way more gold than this.
    Bugs alone should net you about 18-20k for a clear.
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