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Improving Imperian Combat

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  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    Calais said:
    vitality
    You need to be fully healthy in both body and mind before you can call upon your vitality.


    Thought you meant it healed full health/mana....cause that's what Redemption does.
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    Garryn said:
    Ahkan said:
    Thanks to the new and improved system we can arguably say that base devotion provides for 166 uses of hands
    Not sure how you came to that number! The devotion pool allows for a total of 2000(max) / 120(cost) = 16 uses before being depleted. After factoring in regen (200 every 15s), the total rises to 20-22. This assumes that the devotionist isn't using any rites at all (-40 max per rite), and isn't preserving the 1,000 devotion required for Redemption to fire.

    Worth noting that the beads artifact reduces costs by 33%, which may be contributing to the overall perception.
    Without beads, that's still like 3-4 extra lives worth of health outside of normal sip/toadstool.
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    I haven't seen any sort of AM rebuttal on this issue - probably because we haven't burned through all of their lives yet and they are still too busy fighting to post :(
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
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    AhkanIniar
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
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  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    Eldreth said:
    I haven't seen any sort of AM rebuttal on this issue - probably because we haven't burned through all of their lives yet and they are still too busy fighting to post :(
    Some things are just common sense.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Ahkan Templar is strong. Priest I would just call broken.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    Bladesurge kicks in at 1/3 health and only gives you 1/3 health back. And yes you get an extra attack. And for things that do just straight damage that's great, but for low hooks and jabs it doesn't really speed that along since you are prepping limbs 90% of the time with three attacks in mind, suddenly getting a fourth attack for limbs can wind up breaking a limb to soon thus negating it for a speedy break.

    Sure it's awesome for fresh limbs with no damage to them, but how often is that the case when Bladesurge fires? And as for the added fourth attack damage wise, it's not really that large a jump in damage when setting up limbs unless you have strength artis/strength heavy stat pack. Edit: even then it might not be a big jump.

    I know people rage hard for some reason after dying to a predator, but let's be real here. Outside of a select few instances, that we are generally unable to replicate without certain people being around let alone flying solo, the class is fairly lackluster compared to most classes.

    #LeavePredsAlone

  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's just talk about Redemption then.

    What are the facts around Redemption:

    Two classes have them.
    These two classes have chainmail and fullplate.
    Statpacks: no comment.
    Redemption costs 1000 devotion.
    200 devotion every 15 seconds: 75 seconds to replenish 1000 devotion.
    Requires a banked 1000 devotion.
    Grants 100% hp on death.
    Restores balance and equilibrium on death.

    What can a priest do with 2,000 devotion that they can't without 1,000 devotion in a 60s fight? I honestly don't know.
    Anything else missing?

    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • RylaeisRylaeis Member Posts: 33 ✭✭
    edited September 2014
    Priests use splintmail. (makes your comment more valid, but just saying :P)
    image
    Iniar
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    See I forgot. :(
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not sure what Delrayne's qqpredator tangent was all about and how it relates to devotion. Predator is bad because the people that classlead for it aren't very.
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  • CelestineCelestine WisconsinMember Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    Eldreth said:
    I haven't seen any sort of AM rebuttal on this issue - probably because we haven't burned through all of their lives yet and they are still too busy fighting to post :(
    Is it a true statement in saying that when you hit redemption, the defenses that you lost while fighting whatever fight you were in do not come back without 're-activating' them? The few times I've hit redemption, I seem to die a lot -faster- than if I was just walking into a fight.

    I'm not writing a rebuttal for it - I believe everyone should have an even playing field. 

    Also, @Septus is on vacation (until today).
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  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    Celestine said:
    Eldreth said:
    I haven't seen any sort of AM rebuttal on this issue - probably because we haven't burned through all of their lives yet and they are still too busy fighting to post :(
    Is it a true statement in saying that when you hit redemption, the defenses that you lost while fighting whatever fight you were in do not come back without 're-activating' them? The few times I've hit redemption, I seem to die a lot -faster- than if I was just walking into a fight.

    I'm not writing a rebuttal for it - I believe everyone should have an even playing field. 

    Also, @Septus is on vacation (until today).
    It's just like when you get starbursted - you're still the primary target when you return from redemption, so everyone is going to be hitting you. I've seen (and experienced) multiple deaths before the target has time to adapt, just because of the sheer number of people throwing out heavy damage combos. In this situation, redemption isn't outright saving you from death - but it's effectively doubling the amount of health people have to burn through before you're out of the fight. That's a major advantage compared to other factions.


  • CelestineCelestine WisconsinMember Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    Wysrias said:
    Celestine said:
    Eldreth said:
    I haven't seen any sort of AM rebuttal on this issue - probably because we haven't burned through all of their lives yet and they are still too busy fighting to post :(
    Is it a true statement in saying that when you hit redemption, the defenses that you lost while fighting whatever fight you were in do not come back without 're-activating' them? The few times I've hit redemption, I seem to die a lot -faster- than if I was just walking into a fight.

    I'm not writing a rebuttal for it - I believe everyone should have an even playing field. 

    Also, @Septus is on vacation (until today).
    It's just like when you get starbursted - you're still the primary target when you return from redemption, so everyone is going to be hitting you. I've seen (and experienced) multiple deaths before the target has time to adapt, just because of the sheer number of people throwing out heavy damage combos. In this situation, redemption isn't outright saving you from death - but it's effectively doubling the amount of health people have to burn through before you're out of the fight. That's a major advantage compared to other factions.
    So then why not make it so when redemption is used, that person isn't able to use a Starburst at the same time? That way, just like everyone else, they have a 'get out of jail free card'?
    image
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eldreth said:
    I haven't seen any sort of AM rebuttal on this issue - probably because we haven't burned through all of their lives yet and they are still too busy fighting to post :(
    What rebuttal? It's ridiculous and I know it is; I even posted on the beta saying that it was too good, but my post was summarily ignored. It's overpowered as hell and it will be nerfed and it deserves it, but I'm not so honorable that I'm going to stop using it or anything.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    Menoch
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Khizan said:
    Eldreth said:
    I haven't seen any sort of AM rebuttal on this issue - probably because we haven't burned through all of their lives yet and they are still too busy fighting to post :(
    What rebuttal? It's ridiculous and I know it is; I even posted on the beta saying that it was too good, but my post was summarily ignored. It's overpowered as hell and it will be nerfed and it deserves it, but I'm not so honorable that I'm going to stop using it or anything.
    It's funny how often this is the case and when it is applied. "We know this is a problem, but.........."
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    Menoch
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    Celestine said:
    Wysrias said:
    Celestine said:
    Eldreth said:
    I haven't seen any sort of AM rebuttal on this issue - probably because we haven't burned through all of their lives yet and they are still too busy fighting to post :(
    Is it a true statement in saying that when you hit redemption, the defenses that you lost while fighting whatever fight you were in do not come back without 're-activating' them? The few times I've hit redemption, I seem to die a lot -faster- than if I was just walking into a fight.

    I'm not writing a rebuttal for it - I believe everyone should have an even playing field. 

    Also, @Septus is on vacation (until today).
    It's just like when you get starbursted - you're still the primary target when you return from redemption, so everyone is going to be hitting you. I've seen (and experienced) multiple deaths before the target has time to adapt, just because of the sheer number of people throwing out heavy damage combos. In this situation, redemption isn't outright saving you from death - but it's effectively doubling the amount of health people have to burn through before you're out of the fight. That's a major advantage compared to other factions.
    So then why not make it so when redemption is used, that person isn't able to use a Starburst at the same time? That way, just like everyone else, they have a 'get out of jail free card'?
    This is actually the exact solution myself and others have proposed. Just need to wait for that classlead round I guess.


    Celestine
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wysrias said:
    This is actually the exact solution myself and others have proposed. Just need to wait for that classlead round I guess.
    Or do we...? :(
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Raykel
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    We don't, but because of reasons, we do.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Reading the Wysrias' comments on Diabolist, Druid toadstool denial in the Owned thread:

    What if we introduced a third sipper for Imperian, one that does what toadstool does but uses elixir balance. Call it rejuvenation - that way, a person can choose to buffer against mana kills by sacrificing pure health sips.

    It feels like it would complicate things unnecessarily but want to know what people would think.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Ahkan
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    This has been bouncing around in my head for a while.

    We all know smithing sucks, horribly, and that knights have to be balanced around dsl, and as someone who has been trolling with knight from the days of old metra/calo/cig and surprise demon, up to modern times, gotta say it's all kinda stale.

    Delete Smithing

    Delete DSL

    Replace smithing with a tertiary skillset for each knight that is based off of their unique pet. Each guild afaik has pwell established RP over the years as to the importance of those falcon/kestrel/hound allies. Further build this skillset to have builds or specs utilizing weapons for different ends. This skillset might have 10 general abilities for a deathknight, for example, for things that the hound can do. Bloodscent and the like. Then maybe 5 abilities that focus on damage output, where the knight would utilize a claymore or halberd. Maybe 5 different abilities in the skillset you could utilize with a longsword that focus on salve suppression and the like to build toward a vivisect.

    Is anyone following me with this, and is it a good idea?
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's all stuff that's been mentioned before. The design flaw of the current weapon system is that only the poles are good. Everything else sucks. Look at Garryn's latest attempt to fix broad, scimitar, longswords. All he succeeded in doing was making claymores the dominant weapon by a larger margin. The only solution here is to add incentives to moving away from the outliers and that requires weapon-specific skills. This of course, requires effort. We're not fans of that around here. From a business standpoint, it's not really beneficial to redo knights because they rake in the dough and are by far one of the easiest classes in the game to play.

    Also, removing smithing is a hard sell because chivalry is -so- good and necro/runelore/devotion are badass support skills. The class functions incredibly well with 2 skills and 3rd skill with anything remotely useful would make it ridiculous. Knight overhaul gets really weird really fast.


    image
    MenochIniar
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    Yeah that's kinda what I proposed but as you said it's pretty much like, the go to class. I tell newbs or people returning after a break that all the time. You can get bi trans and easily find fieldplate that's really close to fullplate (mine is 78/73 iirc) and then you're set for 1v1 or teams dependent on statpack and a decent weapon.

    What I wonder is, how would a weapon design overhaul like the one I proposed, or the replacement of smithing, be viable for classes like WD that utilize smithed weapons while not being a knight? It's just sad because knight has such potential and it is always given a shitty bandaid to fix perceived problems or imbalances and then we wind up with what we have... A dominant class at all tiers in all aspects that is all because of a couple of fundamental skills that you can't tweak without making or breaking the class.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    15:11:32.336 queue reset all
    15:11:32.336 Septus rebounding up.
    15:11:32.611 [] Balance [] [] Balance [] [] Balance []
    15:11:32.613 You quickdraw a claymore.
    15:11:32.614 You rub some aconite on a claymore.
    15:11:32.616 You dsl Septus.
    15:11:32.617 The attack rebounds back onto you!
    15:11:32.618 -74 [14.5%], 145 (49.0%)
    15:11:32.619 Your thoughts become jumbled and you have trouble thinking.
    15:11:32.620 You are afflicted with stupidity.
    15:11:32.623 You rub some luminal on a claymore.
    15:11:32.624 You dsl Septus.
    15:11:32.625 The attack rebounds back onto you!
    15:11:32.625 -74 [14.5%], 145 (49.0%)
    15:11:32.626 Your ability to digest elixirs seems off for some reason.
    15:11:32.628 You are afflicted with slow elixirs.
    15:11:32.631 Balance Taken: 3.64s
    15:11:32.632 Mana Lost: 9
    15:11:32.632 -anorexia (Septus) Soulstorm Septus anorexia.
    15:11:32.635 Equilibrium Taken: 2.96s
    15:11:32.636 363[70] 547[95] -- db 9 97 25.16 0 [++++++++++]
    15:11:32.863 BALANCE queue cleared.
    15:11:32.864 EQUILIBRIUM queue cleared.
    15:11:32.864 EQBAL queue cleared.
    15:11:32.865 414[80] 575[100] -- db 9 97 25.16 0 [++++++++++]queue reset eqbal
    Here's a crazy idea:

    QUEUE EQBAL REBOUNDING:( thing ) OR:( other )
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Khizan
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭✭
    That's why I mainly set up variable queues and temp triggers instead of in-game queuing.
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  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't want "queue bal rebounding this or that" because I think that goes a little too far into "track my things for me" territory. 

    At that point you might as well say "DSL always razes if rebounding is up" and be done with it.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    AhkanSeptusIniar
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't spam dsl, imo.

    I honestly wouldn't cure eq/ba dsl either.
    image
    Septus
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    I disagree.

    Because I'm already saying on my end, "Always DSL unless rebounding".

    The only factor I'm being punished for here is not:
    1) Bad variable assignment
    2) Faulty logic (hurdur if not A then B )

    I'm being punished for latency.

    Which is what EQBAL was put into the game in the first place.

    Not like I'm asking Garryn to pick my toxins for me.

    E: There's a big reason I pick Arctar mark 150% over Buul.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    KryssDicene
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    I also make use of the inbuilt queues because of latency. For rebounding, I think it's better to trigger it with timers and then just make sure you're really mashing your attack, or at least make it so that after x amount of time (decided by comparing your dsl speed to rebounding's speed) your queue changes to rsl.

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No, you're saying "There's never a need to track rebounding because you can enter every single DSL as "queue eqbal rebounding DSL or RSL"; nobody should ever hit rebounding ever again, with this change and so you might as well just make DSL automatically raze.


    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

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