Improving Imperian Combat

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  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brainmelt takes no more or less coordination than Bloodfreeze. A big brainmelt is going to happen eventually. A big bloodfreeze will happen eventually. The difference illustrated is that big bleed is an Outrider thing. Tons of tertiary mentals is a Magick thing. The difference is not subtle. Both skills are dumb for different reasons, but at least big bleed is generally gated by needing the Outrider to make it happen. Almost all of Magick accidentally afflicts with piles of afflictions -it is only a matter of time, not effort, that decides a brainmelt (or cirisosis, actually..)
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dummy Test Bot kthnx.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Gabriel
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    While Wyssy crusades against Malignist being bad, I'm going to take pot shots at Wytchen.

    Wytchen is a clunky mishmash of barely compatible skills.
    -New runelore is the bee's knees on Runeguards. Not so much for Wytchen.
    -Cadmus is the best mark. Everything else cannot and will not compete. Ever.
    -Given the 'ho hum' offense that is incredibly reliant upon tracking/momentum, the class isn't durable or versatile enough (damage or affs) to survive the current meta.

    Suggestion 1:
    Design the class around curse/dustthrow. Alter Belial/Hecate (I will provide more awesome suggestions later). Delete swift curse and blight.

    Classes are balanced around the synergy between the primary and the secondary skill, often picking up some utility from the tertiary skill. Wytchen's offense is forced into the decision of "Do I pk with 100% curses or 100% shamanism." Neither are potent by themselves and the real sweet spot is pairing curses with the back up afflictions from shamanism. Even then, the affliction list leaves a lot to be desired, especially when we consider that not all shamanism afflictions feed into igniting marks. The class needs to be balanced around curse/dustthrow as the fundamental mechanic,

    Suggestion 2:
    Runelore doesn't fit the class or the core mechanics of the class.

    As I already mentioned, there's a few missing afflictions or delivery options for wytchen. Runelore doesn't address these at all. Sure, you pick up buffs from 3 runes, but runeflares bring so little to wytchen combat. We just cut pasted runeguard runelore onto wytchen because of :effort:. It doesn't fit. The timing is terribly of and you're actually hamstringing yourself if you're going to try to work runelore into your offense. Let's not even get into the lack of compatibility with some of the mechanics...see: eihwaz. Trash it, reintroduce runelore mechanics under a more 'wytchen' feel.

    Suggestion 3:
    Remove the % failure from marks with regard to dustthrow afflictions.

    If you want to tweak the aff output of the class, go after the balance time and the cool downs. Building an aff class around "If I do this, I have a 33.3% chance to do a secondary affliction." That's a terrible gamble. I want that affliction to be paired with this other affliction at exactly this time. If it doesn't fire, I want to do it again until I hit with the combo I want/need. Terrible mechanic that favors spamming the same combo ad nauseum until it works. Reduce the effect or raise the cooldown to put it on part with current affliction builds in the game. Seems like 4 afflictions a round is pretty standard.

    Suggestion 4:
    Remove the clutter and tighten the 'curve' of balance-eq.
    Here's a list of things that all have different balance times: Curse (hecate belial), Swift Curse, Blight, rune flare, sketch, dustthrow 1, dustthrow mixing 2, curse cadmus.  How can you balance this class when you're looking at affliction times at a range of 1-4affs between 1.5-3 seconds? Never mind that none of these are compatible in the least. There are too many confounding variables from incompatible mechanics that really hold the optimization back and prevent this class from being an 'efficient' and fun affliction class. Also, suggestion 3.

    Suggestion 5:
    Admit we screwed the pooch and go back and fix it. This applies to defiler as well.
    image
    MenochKanthariAshaniWysrias
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    I'd like Wytch move to a kill-window chain like Summoner...

    Except the kill-window is for number of Special Effects applied over an opponent's single off-eq phase

    And giving Wytch access to a skill that will hasten the next opponent's attack but slow down the next incoming eq/bal-recovery

    Give curses noctec and mebaral. Make Wytch the smoke-king/queen.

    Also give wytches the ability to trade affs for stat damage. And fill missing mana and doing equivalent HP damage.

    I'd also like Wytch to have ranged mass strip.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KanthariKanthari Member, Historian Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd just like the profession to have a solid theme, to be honest. It doesn't seem very cohesive. Right now, I throw bonedust, draw marks, wield tablets, wield totems, and point. It just seems like a lot of different things that don't necessarily mesh well thematically.

    image
    (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    @kanthari ;
    I never really thought the wytchen communed officially with the demons. Wytchen and demons have more in common with Kachinas than they actually have with devil worship. You can totally spin it that we're actually communing with demons, but it's a very informa, primitive relationship which relates much more with the founding and continued development of the wytchen 'role'.

    Example:
    Kanthari doesn't actually speak to Hecate. Kanthari speaks to a spirit who is the old woman who bridges the gap between the living world and the underworld, whom so happens to BE Hecate, but Kanth isn't aware of that. 

    Thoughts? 
    image
    Kanthari
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lol @ my post while half asleep.

    Multiple hands do not a fun game make!
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The best way for us (i.e. demonic) not to get nerfed is not use the ability. Shocker.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I felt like I was only griping and providing 0 feedback.

    Make redemption a free starburst tattoo that costs 100% devotion. (so you can't put it up in combat and is a prep skill). Then prevent this from stacking with existing starburst tattoos. This defense is removed on log off.

    After that, I think it's worth looking into to add further restrictions on redemption:
    -not 100% devotion
    -not 100% health
    -not 100%  mana

    Right now it's effectively a 2x health buffer that allows you to frivolously push a bad position at 0 cost. Hey, I redemptioned Lionas. Oh well, Lionas just absolved me.


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  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Would same rules apply to Vitality and Bladesurge? Mmmm.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    Vitality is kinda like what Ahkan proposed. And is bypassed by most finishers, unlike redemption.
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Blade surge gets nuked by finishers too. #LeavePredsAlone

    Ashani
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    The only thing I'd say about bladesurge, is that preds get improved offense on top of the healing, which is a little odd.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iniar makes observation. Shou stops using cirisosis, cirisosis complaints go away. Cirisosis no get hot nerf.

    People must :really: **** about demonic PK.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Menoch
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    Despite whatever is said to the contrary, hivemind mentality gets more done around here than anything else, and this has pretty much always been the case in my experience.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Iniar said:
    Iniar makes observation. Shou stops using cirisosis, cirisosis complaints go away. Cirisosis no get hot nerf. People must :really: **** about demonic PK.

    We use Cirisosis when two criteria are met:

    1. Septus is around to coordinate the tracking.
    2. We have a primary target like Risca/Eldreth, who's so tanky that it's faster to cirisosis them, to death than it is to just beat them down.

    With the influx of claymore we have been getting, basically nothing in the world meets the second criteria, so we never have to resort to it.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    With the influx of claymore we have been getting, basically nothing in the world meets the second criteria, so we never have to resort to it.

    Looks like that upgrade to broadswords, longswords and scimitars is working out really well.

    image


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    IniarAshani
  • CalaisCalais Member Posts: 55 ✭✭✭

    While I think 100% devotion for redemption seems like overkill, I agree pretty heavily with full health/mana like vitality. Then again, I haven't used devotion since it was changed so maybe that wouldn't take an eternity to recover from now.

  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    100% is perfectly legitimate considering it only takes what, 2-3 minutes to recharge up to full? The cost -has- to be high so you cannot use it mid-combat or just before.
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    Raykel
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭

    While I think 100% devotion for redemption seems like overkill, I agree pretty heavily with full health/mana like vitality. Then again, I haven't used devotion since it was changed so maybe that wouldn't take an eternity to recover from now.

    Vitality isn't full health/mana. Don't know the numbers on bladesurge but I don't think that is either.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hot Nerf all HP bonuses.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    At the least, the extra life effects (Redemption, Starburst, Combust) need to not stack with each other. It is staggeringly disheartening to go into battle with Antimagick knowing that what looks like a 4v4 is in many ways a 4v12+.

    So while simply preventing the stacking of said effects may be a boring solution, can we at least have that if nothing else?

    CassiusMenoch
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nah. We should nerf all HP bonuses, then work from there. At least it's an equal platform to start with, then more honest conversations can be had. But it is unlikely to happen.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    MenochShay
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Health buffs aren't a very big deal, honestly. You're paying a premium to break 700h. You're also sacrificing stats, balance modifiers, etc. There's really no problem at the top there. 

    A larger problem are active heals. It's been classleaded before and dismissed out of hand several times, but the problem remains. A 'fighter' can sit there and do nothing but chain active healing. Kliko, Sarrius, Chani, Celestine, Septus. When you're adding up sip, regen, toadstool, passive skills, AND an active heal you're outpacing the damage done to you. The company line has been "it's not possible to spam them." Thanks to the new and improved system we can arguably say that base devotion provides for 166 uses of hands which at neutral balance probably comes out to 8 minutes of hands spamming for 20% health recovery. You'll notice that's longer than your actual team engagement and the 100% regen time is 2 minutes.

    Now apply this other active healing abilities. It's a problem since they stack.
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    IniarCassius
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I nearly walked away from our 'fight' yesterday, Ahkan. Hands, hands, hands? No. It was only because Celestine is fairly squishy that I thought it would be worth trying. There's nothing more infuriating than beating on group 20% heals, as well as hidden affliction curing. I can see why Kryss went DK (<3 60s kill method - see all of AM). Sorry, @Celestine.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    Oh hell, I forgot to add constructive comments. We'll pull from other games of a similar genre

    -Diminishing returns (that stack) 20/15/10/5/1/1/1/1/1
    -Global active healing cooldown
    -Increasing cost-cooldowns. Aka, if I hands within 10s, the next one costs 2x. If I do it again, 3x
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    MathiausIniar
  • CalaisCalais Member Posts: 55 ✭✭✭
    Cassius said:

    While I think 100% devotion for redemption seems like overkill, I agree pretty heavily with full health/mana like vitality. Then again, I haven't used devotion since it was changed so maybe that wouldn't take an eternity to recover from now.

    Vitality isn't full health/mana. Don't know the numbers on bladesurge but I don't think that is either.
    vitality
    You need to be fully healthy in both body and mind before you can call upon your vitality.

    @Ahkan: Oh, that's much more reasonable sounding. I didn't realize how insanely fast that was now.
  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    edited September 2014
    Ahkan said:
    Thanks to the new and improved system we can arguably say that base devotion provides for 166 uses of hands
    Not sure how you came to that number! The devotion pool allows for a total of 2000(max) / 120(cost) = 16 uses before being depleted. After factoring in regen (200 every 15s), the total rises to 20-22. This assumes that the devotionist isn't using any rites at all (-40 max per rite), and isn't preserving the 1,000 devotion required for Redemption to fire.

    Worth noting that the beads artifact reduces costs by 33%, which may be contributing to the overall perception.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    I asked the wrong people for information, clearly. Luckily, it doesn't really diminish the point at all. The problem still stands that you're able to heal more damage than is being done with very little trade off. Most modern games have adapted to this and added mechanisms to prevent something like this from occurring.

    I'm taking pot shots at devotion because it's by far the worst offender. You knew this in the beta and even admitted as much. Cleric and Templar are badass classes since they're defense ++ and offense ++.  Between their passive, active, class buffs, and redemption they're two of the best classes in the game and you're expending everything in your arsenal to kill them once. Oops, gotta do it over again. Crap, AGAIN.

    Cleric/Templar are like the inverse of Defiler and Wytchen. Classleads made them too strong.
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    Ashani
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