Improving Imperian Combat

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  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Affliction:    aeon
    Cure message:  The curse of the Aeon wears off and you return to the normal timestream.
    Diagnose:      afflicted with the curse of the Aeon.
    Cure:          laurel
    Physical:      Yes
    Mental:        No
    Can be purged: No

    All damage received while under effect will relapse again after 4 seconds. Reduced by 75% if cured by then.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Laurel smoke is 3 seconds. <- I didn't realise it was this long

    So, bringing Aeon to the table. To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen this used practically. My best guess would be to tee this affliction up (as Wytch or Summoner) with a sabre-knight that can switch to a claymore rapidly. I wouldn't even consider using this affliction until the person was 4 afflictions deep with 2-3 kelp afflictions. I wouldn't use this outside a 2v2 or 3v3.

    My question is: what is the point of this affliction, considering:
    1. I likely will need to work with at least one other person to make it worthwhile
    2. I need someone who can help make sure the asthma stays on for close to 4 seconds
    3. I need to be able to rapidly switch between afflictions and damage, at least for one of the persons
    4. I still don't know how this interacts with 'speed' elixir
    5. I might as well build taint and use 'duplicate' - more effective, less work.

    Thoughts?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only minimal prep situation I can see it working in is flaring nairat then casting aeon. But even that has blocks around it: (1) speed elixir, (2) lower dps of Wytch.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aeon could be a good affliction but it won't be in it's current incarnation.

    -Smoke cures are bad cures because they're 'easy'.
    -Can be passively cured
    -Can be treed out
    -If you don't do damage this affliction does nothing
    -You're wasting an application to blow through a defense that's not on a balance that takes 0 effort to put up. Hard to re-apply.
    -To get this affliction to work you have to do damage while making sure they don't cure the status. In wytchen, good luck. In Noctu...maybe?

    Wytchen is locked in to spamming this slow/choke and hoping to god it sticks. Such strategy, wow. You're better off getting a mark to ignite and straight dpsing someone down.

    You can go a lot of directions with aeon. It's a neat sustained dps stat bonus, but it's going to be really hard to keep locked on anyone.
    -Move the cure to something that isn't a pipe.
    -Remove or give speed an elixir balance
    -Raise the damage from cure-relapse. (22 damage became 5. That's not worth my time). If aeon isn't cured, 22 damage--> 22 damage.

    image
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aeon's damage relapse is caster-specific, IIRC. I'm  pretty sure it will only relapse damage done by the person who afflicted them with aeon, so having a knight who can switch to claymore becomes rather meaningless.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    AhkanIniar
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Unlike something like say....firecircle, it does not benefit from everyone else in your team doing damage.
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  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Khizan said:
    Aeon's damage relapse is caster-specific, IIRC. I'm  pretty sure it will only relapse damage done by the person who afflicted them with aeon, so having a knight who can switch to claymore becomes rather meaningless.
    That's pretty awful then, I must say.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014

    Aeon is basically unworkable, is the thing. Any sort of damage relapse affliction that works in that manner is. It requires you run an affliction offense hard enough to stick an affliction, and then once it's stuck you need to switch over and run a damage offense to make the affliction worth sticking. Without a truelock, this kind of switch is generally impossible; your afflictions will get unstuck; With a truelock this kind of switch is unnecessary. 

    What Aeon Tarot should have been changed to have the same functionality as Timewarp with a channeled throw, which preserves utility and Delicious Timey Flavor. However, Timewarp was implemented as a Noctu skill and Aeon is just sort of left hanging. It's the appendix of Summoner; the class has absolutely no need for it and you can't just get rid of it without going through more trouble than it's worth.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Khizan brings up a good point. Rename timewarp to aeon and remove the channel. Done. #classlead2015
    image
    Iniar
  • AshaniAshani Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    You should change Aeon to what it is in all the other IRE games :(
    image
    Septus says, "Not Ashani!"
    CassiusSarriusAhkan
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭

    Ashani said:
    You should change Aeon to what it is in all the other IRE games :(
    That's what it was previously, but it didn't really fit in the combat landscape - especially with autocuring's effect. (Note: I was not around for the several years before the Summoner revamp, so I can't give you the exact reasoning. But that's my assumption!)


  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    Wysrias said:

    Ashani said:
    You should change Aeon to what it is in all the other IRE games :(
    That's what it was previously, but it didn't really fit in the combat landscape - especially with autocuring's effect. (Note: I was not around for the several years before the Summoner revamp, so I can't give you the exact reasoning. But that's my assumption!)
    More like, it was stupid hard to cure in 1v1, and impossible to cure if you have one dk or one wytch saying 'I don't feel like you should get this albuterol in the form of kelp' in a team. There was also no proactive counter or hard counter. Either drop everything, force asthma and aeon to top of cures, and die to whateverelsehere, or don't, and try to cure all the other **** and straight tank the 20 secs it takes for aeon to wear off. We, (being demonic) would have a wytch or summoner focus on aeon, and we'd slowlock the focus target, and watch them melt in 2 secs to damage they couldn't possibly keep up with. It was kinda hilarious.
    Ashani
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure what any of that means, but aeon had two terrible effects that were bad in 1v1 and teams:

    -Command bottleneck. (every new command reset the old command) and was then subject to...
    -a 1s command delay

    It's the same reason retardation could never be balanced and was just removed. The PK landscape is much more "interesting" with slow time mechanic gone for the classes that relied on it.
    image
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    Ok, update time.
    ========
    [Magick, Druid]: Wisp Poison - Maaaaybe consider making it HEALTH or MANA
    [Magick, Druid]: Quarterstaff Artifact - scale to 10/15/20 v 10/20/30
    [Anti-magick, Predator]: Cirisosis - ?
    [Demonic, Wytch\Summoner]: Aeon - ? It's a problem, Timewarp beats its pants off, it's limited to afflictor only damage (which does nothing for no-one)
    ========

    Next up, affliction healing.

    AB CARE
    Fayth - Care
    Syntax: SERAPH CARE [target]
    This ability will cause your Seraph to heal a single affliction from you or another target in your room.
    I am given to understand that Seraph Care can be used on every balance. It is possible to cast this at 2 seconds, so that's really an extra tree tattoo at 2 seconds instead of 15 seconds.

    Innate affliction mitigation:
    [Passive] Demonic, Diabolist, Syphon, ?7 seconds
    [Passive] Demonic, Defiler, Antibodies OR Transmission, every 6 seconds
    [Passive] Demonic, Defiler, Bileshroud, 10% to shrug toxins
    [Passive] Magick, Bard, Therapeutics

    [Active] Demonic, Defiler, Heartblood, any toxin, 60s buffer, cleared on hit
    [Active] Demonic, Deathknight, Diabolist, Soulstorm, potentially every cast, only Deathaura afflictions (anorexia,claustrophobia,stupidity,dizziness,shivering,nausea), causes damage to healed
    [Active] Demonic, Wytch, Dustthrow cure, potentially every throw, stopped by paralysis
    [Active] Demonic, Summoner, Cadmus - will test, (not stopped by paralysis)
    [Active] Antimagick, Templar, Healing Rite
    [Active] Magick, Bard, Arinyu
    [Active] Magick, Mage, Purify
    [Active] Magick, Hunter, Transfer

    I know I'm missing a lot. Someone care to update me?

    1. Defiler has too many affliction mitigators at present, potentially, changing Bileshroud's effect and reducing the timer on Heartblood to 20 seconds would be useful.
    2. Is there an innate cooldown on Arinyu and Purify?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AshaniAshani Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Whoa, whoa. The last thing I need is a nerf.

    Heartblood blocks -one- poison of my choice, which I have to pre-arrange, for 60 seconds. It's not precisely active affection mitigation.

    Transmission and antibodies are nice but totally random in what they cure.
    image
    Septus says, "Not Ashani!"
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    @Ashani: I want to balance out investigate the affliction curing skills across circles, but to balance do so, I need to give away a toy - Defiler has a few defensive toys it can lose, and affliction curing is certainly one of them. I am happy to suggest any other skill you would like to trade away, but it's a bit of tit for tat before anyone will budge and concede that their classes need serious looking into. (Except summoner yo)
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 750 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Offering compromises isn't a good way to balance these things. One side always runs out of compromises before the other side runs out of broken/unbalanced mechanics.

    That said:

    You probably need to include fitness. I'd take a class with just fitness over any with just passive curing, personally.

    Wardancer: spurn (passive curing), relax (cures paralysis balancelessly on its own internal cd). I've not played wardancer at all lately for one v one, so couldn't tell you if it cures numbness.

    Your missing might from druid and hunter.

    You're missing bliss from devotion.

    Your missing kanai push from kanai (you'd have to be kind of daft to ever use this over seraph care though).

    I don't know of any active cures that consume balance that have internal cooldowns (fitness, might, purify, seraph care, etc). I have no idea about what defiler's restrictions are.

    Seraph care and all similar abilities aren't the issue though, I think. The issue stems from being able to hold this down with 0 penalty. You're not going to out afflict someone doing that, but on the flip side you're not going to out damage someone holding down hands/vigour if their health drops below 80% either. Cadmus is awesome because you have to be intelligent about how you use it.

    Iniar
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    Yes, I'd like to move things towards intelligent use rather than hold down ctrl-u. :s It is why I would much rather have increased the balance time on Priestess than dropping it to 15%. I'd take a 5+ s eq cost at 25%, rather than a 3.2 at 15% (owell)

    That's ok, I think I want to see all the cards on the table before I can start sniping people's favourite abilities.

    :D )
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    The active cures don't really bother me other than I think there should be a CD or limit on the active health/mana spam. They shouldn't really be an indefinite turtling mechanic IMO. The passive affliction cures; however, bother me on most every class that has it. When the actives and passives stack on a single class, it's really dumb.
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    Maybe taking some (or all) of the reserve system idea for active health/mana skills?
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
    Iniar
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    Eldreth said:
    Maybe taking some (or all) of the reserve system idea for active health/mana skills?
    That's perhaps not a bad idea. 

    Could also use something similar to the mage crystal mechanics.  Basically, x number of applications with a longish natural regeneration of charges.  Maybe offer some way to replenish to full charge at a decent cost (i.e. in the case of hands you could just make it a high devotion expenditure such that you have to choose between 'spamhands' and redemption.)

    Also, there should be some global CD to starburst/scorched/redemption type mechanics.  Having to kill people 3 times in 1 fight is sort of an abomination. Twice is quite enough.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    AFAIK, starburst and scorched combust share the same CD.

    E: Are you thinking more starburst/vitality/redemption/shard heal?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 750 ✭✭✭✭✭

    See, I'm on the other side of the spectrum when it comes to the active/passive distinction. Passive is actually pretty trivial to deal with from my experience, because it simulates a careless person using an active ability with a cooldown (using it when you may or not need it).

    Classes that stack active/passives are the obvious exception.

  • EoghanEoghan Member, Immortal Posts: 853 mod
    Iniar said:
    AFAIK, starburst and scorched combust share the same CD.
    This is incorrect. Currently, combust has a separate 60 minute cooldown after firing. Starburst has a 30 second cooldown after firing. The only current restriction is that you can't have both startburst and combust active at the same time, so you have to touch starburst or combust after being saved, rather than stacking them.
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    EldrethAhkan
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    Iniar said:
    AFAIK, starburst and scorched combust share the same CD.
    E: Are you thinking more starburst/vitality/redemption/shard heal?
    Not sure, it may just have been that it took longer than the CD to kill?

    Either way, redemption stacking on top of either one makes it 3 deaths to get rid of 1 person.  And that occurs on arguably the tankiest classes in the game. I don't have an issue with redemption itself, I just think it either shouldn't stack with similar skills/share CD. Or if it is going to stack, it needs to be soo expensive in devotion that you have to trade a good portion of your offense to use it.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Eoghan said:
    Iniar said:
    AFAIK, starburst and scorched combust share the same CD.
    This is incorrect. Currently, combust has a separate 60 minute cooldown after firing. Starburst has a 30 second cooldown after firing. The only current restriction is that you can't have both startburst and combust active at the same time, so you have to touch starburst or combust after being saved, rather than stacking them.
    Which does my Torc apply under? 30 seconds? Honestly never ran them together (feels cheap).
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • EoghanEoghan Member, Immortal Posts: 853 mod
    edited August 2014
    Iniar said:
    Eoghan said:
    Iniar said:
    AFAIK, starburst and scorched combust share the same CD.
    This is incorrect. Currently, combust has a separate 60 minute cooldown after firing. Starburst has a 30 second cooldown after firing. The only current restriction is that you can't have both startburst and combust active at the same time, so you have to touch starburst or combust after being saved, rather than stacking them.
    Which does my Torc apply under? 30 seconds? Honestly never ran them together (feels cheap).
    The Torc of the Dead does not share a cooldown with any of the abilities. It has no specific cooldown, but is gated by having to be charged. It's used before other effects that would resurrect you.
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    Iniar
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Iniar

    Bileshroud is pretty 'meh' and should just go away. Knowing classleads we'll scale back the shrug % from 5 to 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 because "We aint gun 'lete no skeelz." Heartblood + transmission is pretty solid. Antibodies is pretty trivial since it's transmission OR antibodies, not both. That being said, defiler is limping along like the walking dead. It's got one way to kill people right now and once you know it, it's easy to avoid. Yay classleads!

     Years of bad classleads have led to both devotion skillsets being god mode. They've got actives. They've got fitness. They've got passives.To make it worse, this is all stacked on top of redemption,, which picked up a huge upgrade.  Back in the day, this was fine because neither class had teeth offensively so they were always invested in a long fight and could lean heavily on this devotion based support. That's not really the case any more and we blindly have pushed forward upgrading their offense every classlead round, without ratcheting down their staying power. Meanwhile, the same argument of staying power vs tank was used to nerf both summoners and defilers. Inquiring minds want to know....

    To devil's advocate my previous paragraph, the classleads system and garrynbot have really ushered in a golden age of affliction offenses. It is very likely that I may die at max health because I have 4-5 ultimately meaningless afflictions on me because I was getting them 2-3x the rate I can cure them.  Classleads like: cirisosis, lartosis, hunter leads. If you want to 1v1, or even team, you need to roll into combat with a class that has some sort of off-curing ability because the rate at which afflictions are dished out now is just too much to tackle with standard curing. I love wytchen, but I'm going to choose summoner over wytch because 1) tank and 2) non-standard curing buff.

    If you wanted to start off, you'd hit devotion first and bring redemption in line to something reasonable. Give it any sort of malus, idc.


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  • OzreasOzreas Member, Beta Testers Posts: 235 ✭✭✭✭

    Cirisosis has always functioned the way it currently does. The blame for the recent issues with it and twinshot is on more widely available affliction tracking systems, rather than classleads.

     

    Redemption is pretty hilariously bad/awesome. Warning: Templar is nuts and u jelly.

    CassiusIniar
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    A lot of it makes sense. I did ask for a non-standard cool cure for Wytch but that got reverted to a straight hp/mp steal.

    I was hilariously surprised to learn that no one really ever used cirisosis one late night shift. Next day I got Djen an L3 and had a trolling good time. Can't lie, it's fun(ny).

    I honestly think any single class should have only one additional affliction cure, otherwise it's just a mountain to climb for any demonic class other than Assassin. I'm saying this as a mediocre tracker.
    I can tlock as Wytch infrequently, but -not- if they have fitness.
    I can vlock with a 2.35 dsl, but I can't do squat at 2.2 dsl if they have an additional passive heal.
    I can tlock as Diabolist if my silly fiend doesn't fail to hit rebounding and isn't killed.
    Defiler's lost any kind of finishing power except limb breaks which I am admittedly really bad at.
    Summoner's enlighten is fun but for me, insanely difficult to pull off if they have an additional passive cure. This is probably because I don't track like Zith or Kryss.

    I honestly would like more people to get involved in some way in combat outside of 'here-is-your-big-red-button' paradigm because while it is effective, it turns into one big-stick competition (which historically seems to be demonic's shortfall -big sticks that last). To be fair, I only want to be reasonable at afflictions so I can kill people with lots of artifacts, because summoner damage spikes are fairly predictable (except aurashift).

    If the admin honestly wants to make combat, and by extension, affliction combat more accessible, capping additional affliction cures is a good start. If not, I can call it a day, roll Int Summoner or Claymore DK permanently and just walk away when out-dpsed against semi-intelligent teams. (I'm leaning this way now after coming up against so many aff cures... There really is very little reason to struggle with a Wytch Diabolist or even Assassin)

    That said with hunters and bards dishing out a bucketload of afflictions, I see why the game has kept or added affliction cures.

    Finally, why does penance go through prismatic. I am extremely jealous of Templar, and honestly, if you asked me to re-roll Iniar's artifacts, I'd make a Templar and roll over everybody's face.

    Here is my sad face for the day. :(
    Post edited by Iniar on
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Cassius
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2014
    Iniar said:
    ...

    That said with hunters and bards dishing out a bucketload of afflictions, I see why the game has kept or added affliction cures.

    ...
    Making additional skills in every other class shouldn't really be the way to deal with another's class design issues.  I'm not sure if that's why they were added, but if it is, it's kinda backwards.
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