In a vacuum, spamming surged limb breaking sounds negligible. In reality, you're fighting off 1-2 caloric afflictions every stab with the follow up of two mending afflictions. It really boils down to you're rocking 3-4 salve afflictions every 2-4s.
I'll just note that the badger-like ents are on a 7s timer. Surge doesn't change this, it merely causes the entity to do a different action upon its next attack.
I can definitely see that now. At this point, I wouldn't consider stacking bleed a weak effect. :P
Just to clarify, I wasn't aiming to submit all the classleads. Just felt like throwing out a few avenues of 'fixing' that occurred to Mena and I. A good example is blood freeze. I don't think most people knew that it cured bleed on use (or they never fessed up). 20% could easily be mistaken as natural clotting/moss. Thanks @Eusto, again. @garryn too
The big problem I see is the same one I saw in the beta: outriders essentially do split damage, because clotting up bleeding is so mana intensive and there's no other way to cure it.
This, of course, is exacerbated by demonic lacking bandages as a defense against bleeding.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
The big problem I see is the same one I saw in the beta: outriders essentially do split damage, because clotting up bleeding is so mana intensive and there's no other way to cure it.
Bleeding attacks would be somewhat silly if they weren't in any way dangerous. Running someone out of mana leveraging bleeding, or forcing them to prioritize mana over health occassionally to keep up their clotting, is the entire point.
The big problem I see is the same one I saw in the beta: outriders essentially do split damage, because clotting up bleeding is so mana intensive and there's no other way to cure it.
Bleeding attacks would be somewhat silly if they weren't in any way dangerous. Running someone out of mana leveraging bleeding, or forcing them to prioritize mana over health occassionally to keep up their clotting, is the entire point.
That's easy to say when you're in the only circle really capable of this forcing of attrition damage. "I'm against anything that makes catharsis easier." Whelp, absolve = catharsis. And yet here we are. Demonic and magick can't stack up bleed because we don't have it died to a low ICD pet. We've been team fighting for a year or two now and a 50 tick bleed has never really made me think twice. Why? Because my passive regen will pick it up. Clearly, you're unfamiliar with this problem, and rightly so, you never have to fight it. Basically, I have two choices. I can not cure my bleeding damage and get nuked for 400-600 damage, which is on par with a prone/sensitive disembowel. My other alternative is to spam clot until I stop bleeding...which gets me yoinked by some cleric. Both options are bad. When all of your options are bad, I think that's indicative of an underlying problem.
Pick your poison here. Do you want to lower the mana cost on clotting? That'd clear up a little bit of the problem. Better yet, allow clotting to deliver more bang for the buck. The other side of this alternative is addressing percent health damage scaling based on bleed. I don't have the exact numbers and I really wish Garryn would divulge them, but I think that anything below 100 bleed topping 300 damage is a little steep. In teams it's a death sentence either way. I'm not sure if there's a multiplier going awry somewhere, but getting jacked for 400+ damage at 50-60 bleed is whack.
All this being said, I think Selthis is dropping a plz-2-have-bandage classlead for demonic, which will make it harder to farm bleed on innocent little deathknights.
**Longer explanation:
In case anyone says "hurhur you can bleed 2": That's a dumb idea, here's why:
Slit < garrote/worm choke < dstab < webbing
Deadeyes bleed < anything else in this world Curse bleed < deadeyes bleed < anything else in this world
The big problem I see is the same one I saw in the beta: outriders essentially do split damage, because clotting up bleeding is so mana intensive and there's no other way to cure it.
This, of course, is exacerbated by demonic lacking bandages as a defense against bleeding.
Not to mention, if dry blood sticks for a little bit...you're doing mana/health damage. You're basically mind crushing yourself trying not to get blood frozen. :P
We've been team fighting for a year or two now and a 50 tick bleed has never really made me think twice. Why? Because my passive regen will pick it up. Clearly, you're unfamiliar with this problem, and rightly so, you never have to fight it.
If you don't think about bleeding, you're going to die to bleeding. That's basically the system as intended.
The bleed mechanic was rewritten for Outriders because it was entirely irrelevant before. It's somewhat less so now, and the pressure -will- tax you into making a decision if it's what their offense is focused on.
We are also the only circle that CAN capitalise on bleeding. There is no difference between a one dsl 300 damage brainmelt and 50-70 400 damage bleed. Well actually there is. It's a lot faster to pull off the brainmelt.
We are also the only circle that CAN capitalise on bleeding. There is no difference between a one dsl 300 damage brainmelt and 50-70 400 damage bleed. Well actually there is. It's a lot faster to pull off the brainmelt.
Druid is designed quite well to drain mana through both active sapping and oppression/bleeding.
We are also the only circle that CAN capitalise on bleeding. There is no difference between a one dsl 300 damage brainmelt and 50-70 400 damage bleed. Well actually there is. It's a lot faster to pull off the brainmelt.
Who hit you for 300 damage dsls? Were you prone with sensitivity eating double soulquenches or intelligent emblazons?
Otherwise, we should keep over stating things. If I negate doing any substantial dps/affliction, I could make people bleed, which would just get my team killed. Alas, if only everyone would passively stack bleed. To the classlead mobile!
Rather that get into a long discussion involving bleed mechanics (old and new). I think it's just easier to toss in active clotting boost classleads.
I think it's fair to say he meant 300 damage brainmelts.
As for Druid utilizing bleeding, we get 7 bleeding per ~3 second attack if we use a sub par Naturebinding attack (shred), so we don't really hold a candle to Outriders in that department. That being said, I don't see why any other profession needs to be heavily bleed-based anyways.
Outriders don't have any way to capitalize on mana damage, but that seems mostly irrelevant.. dryblood and haemophilia make clotting either impossible or suicide. In my (admittedly limited) experience playing an Outrider I have found it extremely simple to quickly get an enemy to 60-70 bleeding... if they don't kill themselves on dryblood first.
We are also the only circle that CAN capitalise on bleeding. There is no difference between a one dsl 300 damage brainmelt and 50-70 400 damage bleed. Well actually there is. It's a lot faster to pull off the brainmelt.
Pindown/BBT, Pindown/ccuts, and the like would like to have a talk with you about 'easy setup on burst damage'.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
If you can parry well, have heat blood, have a shield tattoo, have a moss tattoo, know how to use clot, have an understanding of what your priorities should be in regard to limb breaks/caloric afflictions and don't walk through multiple clotheslines... then there is nothing overpowered about outriders from what I have seen in both using the class and fighting against it.
@Ahkan I was referring to a brain melts 300 damage off of one dsl setup.
@Khizan I brought up brain melt because people seem to think that in teams, bleeding damage just happens at the drop of a hat. It doesn't, especially compared with its close cousin brain melt.
If you can parry well, have heat blood, have a shield tattoo, have a moss tattoo, know how to use clot, have an understanding of what your priorities should be in regard to limb breaks/caloric afflictions and don't walk through multiple clotheslines... then there is nothing overpowered about outriders from what I have seen in both using the class and fighting against it.
I don't know if you intended this to be serious or funny, but having the basics of combat and knowing how to prioritize properly seem like perfectly reasonable expectations.
I was laughing at the over statement and over simplification. It's -awesome-. Combat in a vacuum! Iluv seems to know his way around not being a hemophiliac and the blood freeze fairy ate his soul. Does this mean Iluv does not have a basic understanding of parry, using heat blood, shield tattoos, moss tattoos and clot? No. I got your back, Iluv.
@Delrayne: Oh poo. I was hoping there was a way to break through the 250 damage barrier without dropping 1600cr. Brain melt is easy to avoid under certain circumstances. A lot of those circumstances involve 2-3-4-5 more people hitting you. You can rack up decent bleeding with spear/bloodsucker to set up a brain-melt-esque bloodfreeze. The only requirement is an outrider. Of course, demonic gets this a little worse because apparently demons think bandages are for wimps (oops, that didn't make it into the 'why I think I'm awesome' oversimplification). The more people are doing physical damage and the more times you get dinged with a blood sucking pet, the more unavoidable stacking bleed becomes. That's when you get into the scenario of "Do I clot away my 50 bleeding or do I eat a 300-400 damage bloodfreeze?" No other circle can back someone into that corner. Shielding isn't really an option unless the opposition is just dumb. Everyone should have someone who knows what raze is and how to use it. Looking at you, Lio.
I was laughing at the over statement and over simplification. It's -awesome-. Combat in a vacuum! Iluv seems to know his way around not being a hemophiliac and the blood freeze fairy ate his soul. Does this mean Iluv does not have a basic understanding of parry, using heat blood, shield tattoos, moss tattoos and clot? No. I got your back, Iluv.
If they were fighting 1v1 and he didn't run out of something, yes I would argue that Iluv likely had a priority issue that caused him to die.
The one time bloodfreeze was an issue for me was when I was being attacked by Sarrius and Darin where Sarrius was using flick to stack up bleeding. I thought that autocuring would handle clotting but it didn't do so well so now I have triggers to clot for specific situations and now it's not so much a problem, yet.
Edit: Demonic could use bandages though (and trailblazing).
Comments
The big problem I see is the same one I saw in the beta: outriders essentially do split damage, because clotting up bleeding is so mana intensive and there's no other way to cure it.
This, of course, is exacerbated by demonic lacking bandages as a defense against bleeding.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Curse bleed < deadeyes bleed < anything else in this world
If you don't think about bleeding, you're going to die to bleeding. That's basically the system as intended.
The bleed mechanic was rewritten for Outriders because it was entirely irrelevant before. It's somewhat less so now, and the pressure -will- tax you into making a decision if it's what their offense is focused on.
Druid is designed quite well to drain mana through both active sapping and oppression/bleeding.
Otherwise, we should keep over stating things. If I negate doing any substantial dps/affliction, I could make people bleed, which would just get my team killed. Alas, if only everyone would passively stack bleed. To the classlead mobile!
As for Druid utilizing bleeding, we get 7 bleeding per ~3 second attack if we use a sub par Naturebinding attack (shred), so we don't really hold a candle to Outriders in that department. That being said, I don't see why any other profession needs to be heavily bleed-based anyways.
Outriders don't have any way to capitalize on mana damage, but that seems mostly irrelevant.. dryblood and haemophilia make clotting either impossible or suicide. In my (admittedly limited) experience playing an Outrider I have found it extremely simple to quickly get an enemy to 60-70 bleeding... if they don't kill themselves on dryblood first.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
@Khizan I brought up brain melt because people seem to think that in teams, bleeding damage just happens at the drop of a hat. It doesn't, especially compared with its close cousin brain melt.
@Delrayne: Oh poo. I was hoping there was a way to break through the 250 damage barrier without dropping 1600cr.
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”