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Big changes in the Oct-Nov 2012 classlead cycle

GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
edited November 2012 in Fighting and Combat
Akin to most of the previous classlead cycles, I am going to do a bigger series of changes to some skills that require it. In this round, Runelore and Evileye are the targets. I'm going to post all the details here, so that any potential concerns can be caught before the actual implementation begins. There are several things that could potentially be problematic - all constructive feedback is, as always, very much appreciated.

RUNELORE:

  • Ground circles will be removed
  • Weapon runes will likewise be removed - Lagua, Lagul and Laguz will become ground runes instead:
Lagul: canopy effect
Lagua: negate hunger in the room
Laguz: rubble-like effect in the room, short duration
  • up to two runes will be able to be sketched on the ground at once
  • circles will be sketched on a runic tablet now, with up to 4 runes inside
  • the Runelore user will be able to have multiple tablets, and they work from inventory (no need to wield them) unless stated otherwise
  • each of the runes within a circle can be activated to achieve some effect; this costs 3s equilibrium, but doesn't require balance, and thus can be combined with DSL and dustthrow/curse
  • each rune type in the circle will have its own cooldown after used - you'll be able to use a different rune upon regaining equilibrium, but not the same rune multiple times in a row. The cooldown will be per-type, and thus apply even if you have the same rune sketched multiple times.
  • runes inside the circle don't have a regular timer; but the circle rune itself does have a limited number of uses; each activation of a rune within the circle reduces that counter, and the circle with all its runes fades from the tablet once it reaches zero

Circle rune effects - most of these are entirely different from their regular effects. Not all runes can be used in this way, only the listed ones can.

Kena - afflict with hallucinations. 8s cooldown.
Fehu - after a 2-second delay, put the target to sleep or strip related defences. No cooldown.
Pithakhan - The next attempt to sip health or mana is blocked (elixir balance still taken). 20s cooldown.
Inguz - target is knocked to the ground. No cooldown.
Wunjo - after a 2-second delay, the target is hit with a rune sketched on the ground, if possible. If there are two applicable ones, a random one is chosen. The rune does not fade and blindness does not prevent this. 8s cooldown, increased to 14s if the Nairat rune is chosen.
Sowulu - damage to the target if he's not deaf. Unlike other runes, this one requires that the tablet is wielded. 4s cooldown.
Hugalaz - Next attempt to shield causes damage instead. Effect fades when triggered or after 10 seconds. 20s cooldown.
Nauthiz - The next attempt to eat a toadstool is blocked (toadstool balance still taken). 20s cooldown.
Mannaz - Defence. Next two rune activations (not including this one) only cost 2 seconds, rather than 3, and the 2-second delays are reduced to 1 second where applicable.
Sleizak - afflict with amnesia. No cooldown.
Nairat - After a 2-second delay, the next two attempts to cure a physical affliction are blocked. 20s cooldown.
Eihwaz - Rebounding aura is automatically stripped from the target the next time it's formed. 12s cooldown.
Loshre - After a 2-second delay, the next two attempts to cure a mental affliction are blocked. 12s cooldown.

The idea is to preserve the unique circle effects in a significantly altered form, making them much more dynamic and fluid.

Etchings:
Flame, Snowflake, Bolt: Runeguard only. Damage flares with fire/cold/electrical damage, and likely some special conditions (details to be determined, as straight damage could be excessive with all the other upcoming upgrades).
Hawk and Knife remain as they are.

EVILEYE:

Weaken (tentative name) - this will be a Transcendent ability in Evileye. Once the target has been afflicted with 4 afflictions that share the same herb cure, the Diabolist will be able to hit with a new weakening effect. Multiple weakenings will be able to be stacked on the same target, only one per plant, though. Weaken will have several implications:
  • each Weaken will increase the mana threshold for catharsis by 10% - for example, if the target has two of these, the threshold will be 70% rather than 50%
  • each weaken will slightly increase the evileye mana drain from the Wight form
  • finally, if the target has two or more of these, the Eliminate ability will only require 6 seconds to complete instead of 11.5, as the daegger is guided by the weakness
Additionally, it will be possible to hit with one Weaken if the target is afflicted with the aeon affliction. This is obviously a solely team-combat option, which should provide some extra synergy.

The intent here is to maintain the overall 'feel' of the profession, while providing it with hopefully more viable tactical options for both 1v1 and team combat.
KhizanBathanSarriusKariJuranKryssZiatApoloc
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Comments

  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Meanwhile, crow is eaten by certain parties. This sounds fantastic.
    Message #2062  Sent By: (imperian)      Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a rightass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."
    Ahkan
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    These changes will make runeguard interesting, based on how they go. The three second hardcap on rune activation will probably make saber afflicting a bit unwieldy. Conversely, broadswords should come back in a big way.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • XeronXeron Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    Are there any changes beyond what is listed potentially intended? I can't speak for Runelore, but I do know with Evileye, the only herbs that even have 4 afflictions available for it are Orphine and Mandrake, unless I am missing something off the top of my head. Wormwood has 3, but out of those 10 afflictions, the majority are focusable, and select ones are also purgeable on top of it. Evileye is in no way fast enough to be capable of stacking those, especially if utilizing Wight over Lich.

    I know you said you didn't particularly like affliction combat, and that locks should not be the intended goal, but to stick 4 of any particular herb affliction past purge/focus/tree would basically necessitate a lock to begin with.

    It's also probably rather selfish of me to request more on top of a fairly big change to one skill, but Necromancy really needs to be looked at. There is literally nothing in that skill that facilitates Diab combat. Putrefaction and Animate are easily replaceable in a new skill (or the other 15-20 easily thrown out the door and replaced with something more useful). Vivisect is obviously a significant part of DK combat as well. But other than that, the only other thing that's even moderately useful is Leech, and only then in groups with multiple people using it

    I'll probably have more later, but Halo 4 beckons.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So are you saying that you never use: Shroud, Belch, Lifevision, Soulmask, Sapience, Vigour,  Putrefaction, Deathaura, Gravehands, Soulspear, Soulsense, Blackwind, or Animate?

    Necromancy is a utility skillset, not a combat skillset. Think of it like Diabolist Pioneering or Trailblazing

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    BathanJuranKatarshAhkanIcarius
  • XeronXeron Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭
    The same argument could've been made in regards to every other class rework that's been done. Diab is one of the few remaining classes that are a straight copy/paste from Achaea. The other one that's around the same situation, Mage, is also one I hear plenty of people say could use a re-tooling as well. Evileye doesn't even have a single Imperian-specific affliction in it, and even has less than the Achaean counterpart.

    Regardless, the Necromancy part was just a question for Garryn to see if it was in the cards. The main point was that the concept of Weaken is not going to work, if that is the only addition.
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xeron said:
    The same argument could've been made in regards to every other class rework that's been done.
    And they did. Pioneering and Trailblazing aren't combat skills.
    Khizan
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like the multiple attack paths that both wytchen and runeguard will be encouraged down with this. Slower attacks with longer cooldowns, faster attacks that utilize the speed advantage of sabres or swiftcurse, and at least one offhand attack that forces them to temporarily give up the advantages of a shield or claymore - it's a good mix that should be a lot of fun to play.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    Xeron said:
    The same argument could've been made in regards to every other class rework that's been done. Diab is one of the few remaining classes that are a straight copy/paste from Achaea. The other one that's around the same situation, Mage, is also one I hear plenty of people say could use a re-tooling as well. Evileye doesn't even have a single Imperian-specific affliction in it, and even has less than the Achaean counterpart.

    Regardless, the Necromancy part was just a question for Garryn to see if it was in the cards. The main point was that the concept of Weaken is not going to work, if that is the only addition.
    The problem with malignist isn't in necromancy. At most, you could argue to oust vivisect for something else, but that's a stretch.

    The problem with the class is the delicate balance in afflictions/second in evileye. It either sucks or it rocks. You definitely have a point with weaken. It's hard enough to stick 3 separate afflictions from the affliction list. I don't see 4 same herb afflictions sticking in 1v1. You have to remember you have access to toxins when you're fighting. (Smart people can nullify this in a command) but against people of lower skill, this broadens your list a little. **I'm glad that we're moving away from "Affliction overwhelm" and finally starting(<--important) to move to a new (if not first) focus for the class.
    image
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    Khizan said:

    So are you saying that you never use: Shroud, Belch, Lifevision, Soulmask, Sapience, Vigour,  Putrefaction, Deathaura, Gravehands, Soulspear, Soulsense, Blackwind, or Animate?

    Necromancy is a utility skillset, not a combat skillset. Think of it like Diabolist Pioneering or Trailblazing

    Bounty. Nightsight. Weathering. Fitness. Return. Eyes. Landstriding. Bandages. Camouflage. Vitality.  Keeneye. Leap. Resistance. Might. Block. Locate. Befriend. Hunt. Whitesight. Scout. Gate.  Concealment. Mask

    I'm too lazy to post trailblazing. You get the idea.

    Clearly, the three are analogous (/sarcasm. They aren't)...in the same way that a swiss army knife is similar to a pair of toe nail clippers with a nail file attached. <-- Context. Very important.
    image
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ahkan said:
    I'm glad that we're moving away from "Affliction overwhelm" and finally starting(<--important) to move to a new (if not first) focus for the class.

    Malignist's focus was true locking into mana drain for Catharsis, which I admit isn't very good but is hardly 'unfocused'.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    Most of the time when I offed someone as an Apostate or a Malignist, I did it with damage (vomit, masochism, xero). The class is/was designed around 100% affliction overwhelm. It wasn't even super-tracking overwhelm, just throw 900 afflictions at them and watch them fail.  Back in the day, no one thought hard locks, soft locks, true locks were retarded when 9 out of 10 people couldn't cure. It didn't take a brain surgeon to roll into pk with deadeyes paralysis/asthma in a nightmare. People actually successfully pk'd with entirely random selections from deadeyes., in both Achaea and Imperian.  The big mechanic that the class leaned heavily upon is "let the nightmare do the work" or "gogo gadget rng."  What it boils down to is knocking shelves of bad things on people and saying I AM FOCUSED. 

    Modern changes killed the gimick and made it harder to push people into mana peril. It was already hard to force someone to spam focus against you if they had a clue. 
    image
    Juran
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Verick was the only Malignist that ever really gave me trouble, and I don't believe he would just throw afflictions at the wall to see what stuck. The average malignist would spam stupidity/impatience with hemotoxin on hunt until the person just stopped healing. This worked on people that didn't handle stupidity very effectively, which was most people.

    That said, prior to the recent updates Malignist had a statistical advantage because their attack rate was greater than healing rates by a fair margin. I can't speak for current values, because I don't fight or use malignist these days - but they were built to do what they did, and were for a while the only class that could pull it off. Once you got them to the point of 'locked', it didn't matter waht you used to finish the kill. Verick used behead more often than anything, because it was faster.

    As far as 'on topic', four afflictions of the same cure is probably a little excessive to achieve. You want to reward the person for 'winning' with a kill method that's possible to stop - but it can't be either too easy or too hard. Four of a single cure would let you push through the focus stack, but nothing else really comes to mind.

  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Garryn

    Don't Runelore using classes get, "Activate all runes on me." Does mannaz reduce that eq time? 


    Lagul is just canopy circle redone? Does the duration stay the same?
    Lagua: I think rite of well-being is cool and all, but with level 80 and whatnot, could we have this increase levels of satiety over time? Ooo. For allies, you get fed. For enemies, you get over-fed doing damage. Counter is bitterbrew?

    Tablets:
    Sketch w, x, y, z runes on tablet. Will these take inks? Will using the rune in the circle consume the rune or will it stay? I only ask this because the possibility exists to be using 1 ink every 3s in combat. The cost there is ranging from 6.66g/s-40g/s. That's pretty steep. 

    I'd like to see some wytchen/runeguard only circle effects. Unique runes, unique effects, take your pick. Doesn't have to be much, but one or two would be nice for differentiation. RG's have isa, could work from there.
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  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    Ahkan said:
    Lagul is just canopy circle redone? Does the duration stay the same?
    Presumably 'normal' circles would be gone, so this would be their only form of canopy. I see no reason for anything else to change.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    Which is why there was a "?" at the end of the sentence. Thanks for the uhm...speculation on the answer to the question?
    image
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ahkan said:
    @Garryn

    Don't Runelore using classes get, "Activate all runes on me." Does mannaz reduce that eq time? 

    The eq on that skill is 1.7s sans diadem, that's not really needed imo.

    Everything else in the post sounds good, though. Really like the Lagua idea.

    @Garryn : Will whetstones and chargers be workable for Runeguards, after this? I see no real problem with whetstones. Chargers are very iffy, though, and I lean towards no.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • GurnGurn Member Posts: 788 ✭✭✭✭
    Speaking of diadems, would diadems and int affect rune times?
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    This all sounds really good and it's even better that Runeguards and Diabolists are getting this as a sort of early Christmas present!

    I do have a question about Evileye though. Will the four afflictions have to all be given via Evileye skills or will toxins from daegger hunt count as well? In the later case, there are certainly enough kelp afflictions to go around so (for example) it should be doable to stack up kelp cures while weighing down healing priorities through use of paralysis and stupidity. But I'm sure we'll see how it all plays out.. either way it's a great start for making the class more viable.

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gurn said:
    Speaking of diadems, would diadems and int affect rune times?

    I would assume that a Diadem would affect the eq of the rune ability, but not the innate cooldown.  Maybe they'll release a class-specific artifact for that, I dunno.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • GarrynGarryn Member, Administrator Posts: 527 admin
    Okay, let's see.

    I can drop the requirement to 3 afflictions if 4 would be too much. It will apply to all herb-cured afflictions, not only Evileye ones.

    Necromancy changes - no immediate bigger plans, but it's possible down the road

    Activate - Hrm, using the same term is probably confusing here - it's not the same thing as the existing Activate ability in Runelore

    Runes within the circle don't fade upon being used, but the entire circle will fade (including the runes in it) after its runes have been used enough times (around 40-50 is my estimate, but this could change)

    The current anti-hunger circle blocks hunger attacks entirely, which should be useful after level 80 as well. The lagua rune will retain this functionality.

    Canopy functionality and duration will remain the same, yes, with the change that the effect will drop if the rune is smudged or otherwise destroyed (currently circles can't be removed once activated).

    Class-specific rune circle effects - any suggestions?

  • CaelyaCaelya Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭✭
    Something to destroy stone walls, maybe? Considering we can raise them with gular but have no ability to get rid of them.

  • KariKari Member Posts: 61 ✭✭✭
    Sapping Charges work iirc
  • JuranJuran OhioMember Posts: 909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Everyone can use sapping charges, even people without Engineering skill. It seems fine for me to balance stonewalls around being destroyed that way, magick and demonic have the same limitations when blowing up each other's stonewalls as blowing up their own.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bards can earthquake, Ms. @Caelya. Demonic doesn't have bards.
    image
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    @Garryn

    Laguz: Just something thematic, instead of making it "rubble" why not some way of saying the earth melts (runes being earth magick). It would have no effect except for appearance. 

    Class specific:
    First off, I know we tossed this idea to Nemesis awhile back and she gave it the head nod. People like @Caelya and @Aleutia have been asking the age old question, "Why do we share this skillset?" Since you're pretty much reworking Runelore, how open would you be to renaming some of the Wytchen runes to terms used from either of the demonic languages? 


    Wytchen:
    Maybe the eihwaz rebounding effect could be class specific for RG? Wytchen won't get much benefit from it, even in teams. Instead, when someone attempts to curseward with eihwaz up, they give themselves some random affliction from a brief list of afflictions.

    Since wytchen are the 'tainted' of the two, you could easily argue 'darker' circles for the rune effects for
    Berkana: Additional physical affliction. 12s cooldown (Lethargy, Weakness, Clumsiness, Limb paralysis, vomiting)
    Jera: % based health steal, 20s cooldown.
    Algiz: Reduces magick damage resistance or adds a brief damage "bonus" of 10% across the board.
    Othala: Ability to see which afflictions on cured on target for the duration. 60s Cooldown, 50 second effect.
    Gular: Balance knock off, room wide prone? Long cooldown.

    Runeguard:
    Othala: Alarm that detects the presence of enemies. Area wide: beaten by phase/bw. In room: Only beaten by evade. Duration would be your discretion. 
    Isa is a clear skill to throw the runeguards a bone. Could allow them a burst of elemental damage, some awesome break point effect. I'll let them throw this around.
    Uruz: Level 1 health regen for allies.
    Gular: Gular: Balance knock off, room wide prone? Long cooldown.




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  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So...Aleutia and I were talking about mechanics and thematics.

    Instead of tablets for wytchen, what about shrunken heads/skulls that recite the demonic words (runes) inscribed upon it for circle effects?

    Aleutia wants to be able to customize her skull...(this is weird)
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    Kanthari
  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2012
    Ahkan said:

    Instead of tablets for wytchen, what about shrunken heads/skulls that recite the demonic words (runes) inscribed upon it for circle effects?
    This sounds an awful lot like talking necromantic heads to me..why don't you stop jacking ideas from other people?
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
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    Ahkan
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aleutia did it!

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  • OhmOhm Member Posts: 327 ✭✭✭
    This sounds like preserved heads from Diablo :>
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    AhkanMercer
  • CaelyaCaelya Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭✭
    So since @Ahkan said it's too awesome to happen, I'm requesting it anyway. Instead of tablet for Runeguards, rune dreidels please. Sketch runes on dreidel, spin dreidel, dreidel drops and activates the rune combo. Magick happens.

    AhkanSarrius
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