Ok, my bad there, but my points are still good. Juran's proposed solution is makes no sense unless he wants to be able to tank limb damage and limb damage is not a stronger mechanic than taint generation.
Something no one has responded to yet and which is closer to the reason why I made this thread: things like aeon, retardation, rebounding stacking and a lucky stupidity effect weren't replaced with new ways of killing people that require the same levels of player input changes (aeon & retardation), cost/benefit analysis (retardation), timing (rebounding aura), managing randomness (stupidity), etc. Aside from limb damage and parry, which they are after in various ways, the only skillset being leveraged in Imperian PvP these days is the single skillset valued most by a handful of forum stalkers, the ability to manage and organize facts.
This thread is not particularly productive, and has been leaning toward personal attacks. Please tone it down a bit and try to keep to relevant discussion.
For the sake of clarification, taint does not diminish over time. Taint wears off all at once between 60 and 70 seconds after the last time it was applied (the exact time depends on the time between taint-generating attacks). The timer is reset when taint is applied.
If there are other confusions that need to be cleared up in order to keep this conversation productive, feel free to ask for clarification. Most things (within reason) can be explained.
Taint doesn't decay when it's not being used, but taint isn't anything like limb damage because 100% taint is not a kill where 100% limb damage is a kill.
Taint builds into damage or afflictions; while you are away from the summoner you are healing damage and afflictions. When you reengage a kiting summoner, the summoner might still have full taint on you, but you are going to be near full health with zero afflictions and your curative balances up, and he's going to be attacking into that. The summoner CANNOT kill you with hit/hit/runrunrun if you have anything that even resembles a clue.
When you reengage the kiting monk, your limbs are just as damaged as they were the last time he hit them. He can then hit them a couple more times and run again. This is a 100% legitimate offense and IT WILL KILL PEOPLE.
This is how the two things are different.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Ok, my bad there, but my points are still good. Juran's proposed solution is makes no sense unless he wants to be able to tank limb damage and limb damage is not a stronger mechanic than taint generation.
Something no one has responded to yet and which is closer to the reason why I made this thread: things like aeon, retardation, rebounding stacking and a lucky stupidity effect weren't replaced with new ways of killing people that require the same levels of player input changes (aeon & retardation), cost/benefit analysis (retardation), timing (rebounding aura), managing randomness (stupidity), etc. Aside from limb damage and parry, which they are after in various ways, the only skillset being leveraged in Imperian PvP these days is the single skillset valued most by a handful of forum stalkers, the ability to manage and organize facts.
We're responded. We think random chance is retarded, because luck is not skill.
Taint doesn't decay when it's not being used, but taint isn't anything like limb damage because 100% taint is not a kill where 100% limb damage is a kill.
Taint builds into damage or afflictions; while you are away from the summoner you are healing damage and afflictions. When you reengage a kiting summoner, the summoner might still have full taint on you, but you are going to be near full health with zero afflictions and your curative balances up, and he's going to be attacking into that. The summoner CANNOT kill you with hit/hit/runrunrun if you have anything that even resembles a clue.
When you reengage the kiting monk, your limbs are just as damaged as they were the last time he hit them. He can then hit them a couple more times and run again. This is a 100% legitimate offense and IT WILL KILL PEOPLE.
This is how the two things are different.
100% limb damage is a kill, except for when you set up a wall or two levitated hangedman tarot ahead of time to tumble into, or get lucky with gravehands or an equivalent, and then you tumble away from a monk or an Idra and have time to get up from your damaged limbs. Rangers are harder to manage but you can still escape with some foresight and timing.
Meanwhile, 100% taint isn't a guaranteed kill unless you have artifacts and everyone on the forum who wants a better way to heal limb damage has lots of artifacts that boost their damage. Mr. "Quicken spam is a legitimate tactic, this game is fair and interesting."
And we already covered how no one should be effectively kiting you by moving in and out of the room when you're playing a summoner.
Aeon and retardation created a command bottle neck. There was a 1s delay after every command in which no commands could be entered or it would kick out the first command and restart the timer. Retardation was an RNG battle. If you took the double leg break + sleep. You were dead. If you didn't, you couldn't turtle and kill the mage. It was a pretty unfun mechanism to fight in. There was one fight where Sanai dropped retardation on me, I kai crippled sanai and spammed mind disrupt. We both wallowed in misery until retardation wore off.
Stupidity was bad because of the RNG as well. It was also prone to being streaky.
stand, envenom sword with oxalis, envenom sword with strychnine, dsl iriaen, smoke pipe with linseed, eat metrazol
You fart.
You burp. You remove your pants.
You remove your armor.
You quack like a duck. Gnehehehe.
Combat has really become less about gaming an RNG and player pk roulette and is slowly migrating to a system where you're always making small decisions to dictate the outcome of a fight. Very few classes are truly linear in their application. Templar and Assassin come to mind. The 'random' event in Imperian is dictated by the random curing order of Imperian. I will never cure the same every fight. My opponent has to be capable of distinguishing which affliction I just cured, unless of course he is a templar or an assassin. This is why Mathiaus has trouble with bard, because he doesn't know how many afflictions his victim has or what they are. This is why Brishi charges against a wall with brainmelt because he doesn't know which afflictions his opponent has or which ones are brain melt worthy. This is also why Iluv rolls people because he's streamlined his curer to make excellent assumptions as to what afflictions his victims have.
You also see a lot of pkers get locked in to a kill condition. I can deny Brishi and Kryss kills because they're pushing shatter. I can deny a cleric kills by switching my sipping priority and using mana reserves (thank you shard research). Because I'm familiar with most classes, I can alter my offense/defensive play on the spot to try and cock-block your kill strategy and force you to adapt to something else. People do this all the time because very few people in this game are adaptable.
On the flip side, Juran, Khizan, and I are meddling in ho-hum aff builds or maximizing team compositions or damage builds. If you ignore me in defiler you're gonna have a bad time. If you get to 60% health or let Khizan get 100% taint you're gonna have a bad time. Juran and I fought a Wardancer/Templar combo as an Assassin/Malignist and killed them with damage. You can't say that doesn't take a certain amount of application of skill.
Limb damage is none of these things. Remember how Dray, Kabal, and Iriaen would kite people with broken limbs? One potato, two potato, three potato, floor. If any of us got to 3, no argument, you were dead. This is everything wrong with limb damage. This is why the 60s timer was added. This is why the 60s timer is still bad. I can't manage 6 limbs with 1 parry for 6 separate 60s timers.
Spamming asthma in hellsight was the same thing. There was no real skill involved because you were at the mercy of what hellsight gave you. Your job as an a malignist was just to make sure I was paralyzed and asthmatic the entire fight. Linear with a heavy reliance on RNG
Ok, my bad there, but my points are still good. Juran's proposed solution is makes no sense unless he wants to be able to tank limb damage and limb damage is not a stronger mechanic than taint generation.
Something no one has responded to yet and which is closer to the reason why I made this thread: things like aeon, retardation, rebounding stacking and a lucky stupidity effect weren't replaced with new ways of killing people that require the same levels of player input changes (aeon & retardation), cost/benefit analysis (retardation), timing (rebounding aura), managing randomness (stupidity), etc. Aside from limb damage and parry, which they are after in various ways, the only skillset being leveraged in Imperian PvP these days is the single skillset valued most by a handful of forum stalkers, the ability to manage and organize facts.
We're responded. We think random chance is retarded, because luck is not skill.
I don't know how I can simplify this more.
Life has taught me that luck is, quite often, a skill. I don't expect someone like you to accept that but the people who approve the reports are cool enough to get what I am saying here and I want them to start standing up to these outspoken players that want Imperian combat to be like a game of chess where you can buy yourself extra pieces instead of a what it used to be, a game where someone with a lower investment can compete with a person who has spent thousands of dollars, because I know that they are willing to go there, they did it successfully for years.
Life has taught me that luck is, quite often, a skill. I don't expect someone like you to accept that but the people who approve the reports are cool enough to get what I am saying here and I want them to start standing up to these outspoken players that want Imperian combat to be like a game of chess where you can buy yourself extra pieces instead of a what it used to be, a game where someone with a lower investment can compete with a person who has spent thousands of dollars, because I know that they are willing to go there, they did it successfully for years.
Two things.
A) You're trying to tell me that luck, or the very aspect of chance is "the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well" (dictionary.com) I mean, unless you have that nifty ability to fudge dice rolls, luck isn't a skill you can practice and get better at.
You can kill someone that has artifacts without having artifacts yourself. The requirement to do this is to not suck.
Oh, also-- What is someone like me, exactly, Iriaen?
Just want to say, if quicken spam is an issue/yawn, it is not taint that is a problem. It is the choices available to expend taint that is the issue. There is very little incentive for me to anything other than duplicate on tanks, blast on low, strengthen on ceiling, instant (impatience). Its not rocket surgery and is a consequence of minimal differentiation between spell A and spell B. Taint is not the issue.
Exactly. Now I will blow your mind: without any random factors, there will always be a single best taint modifier to use on a specific target at a specific time. Now imagine if instead of hasten for 40% and instant for 60%, you had acceleration for 50% or less, and it did hasten half the time and instant half the time. Now you have a reason to do different things. Now you have a reason to take risks where you otherwise know how everything would happen. I just remade the entire class into something exciting with one shot of randomness and the PvP accountants will hate the idea.
I don't know though, people who want to whine about how luck isn't a skill, maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but if you make "luck isn't a skill" your policy you are going to be a lame accountant-type guy for the rest of your life. This is why I said that ya'll just need to man the f- up. Yes, I know it's a game, but it used to be the most hardcore game on the internet. Now it's a bunch of PvP accountants that can't handle a bit of luck. They are allergic to luck.
Just want to say, if quicken spam is an issue/yawn, it is not taint that is a problem. It is the choices available to expend taint that is the issue. There is very little incentive for me to anything other than duplicate on tanks, blast on low, strengthen on ceiling, instant (impatience). Its not rocket surgery and is a consequence of minimal differentiation between spell A and spell B. Taint is not the issue.
That is largely because affliction summoner using tarot was pretty unfavorably balanced in the later stages of the beta, such that the most effective things a summoner can do are burst damage and burst enlighten (based on burst damage). Intensify is rarely useful given the rate of afflictions compared to healing.
I use wytch. I know about randomness. Swiftcurse can be fun (but usually isn't). There are other ways aside from RNG proc. Didn't blow my mind. OK Iriaen, you win. Classlead a RNG method, I am happy to try it. (I'm pretty open to trying things - except venereal diseases.)
So what we're saying now is that instead of building something that has building costs and incentives to use cleverly at different times during different situations...
We're going to go with dice rolling.
See, here's the thing. Using a random system is never the best way to do something. Rather, it's the lazy way to do something. You're right, Iriaen-- the singular effects of spells can make for a linear combat such that Iniar had described.
However, it's due to their singular nature of X does Y that creates this boringness you complain about, not because they're not random. Rather, these things should be X does Y IF this Z IF this at the cost of A. We can see that's been attempted, but doesn't work quite well-- No, not because it's not random, but rather because the Y an Z effects are still singular in nature.
To be fair, as I understand it, surcoat use to have 15% chance to mitigate all physical damage. I would have giggled if I was on 1 HP and Shou tried to standing CC me and I proc'd the block. On the other hand hitting the block would cause immeasurable gnashing of teeth. Remember that a negatively valent emotion is much more potent than a positive valent emotion.
These things actually happened. Khizan has gone down on record saying that he has sometimes lived and died by his surcoat procs. That BBT when I would have died? Soaked. Of course, surcoat was a fickle mistress - sometimes she would forsake you when you were up shit creek without a paddle.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Luck is "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause". (source: Wikipedia)
the things that happen to a person because of chance : the accidental way things happen without being planned
: good fortune : good luck
: success in doing or getting something
^ - Source: Merriam-Webster
A skill is the learned ability to carry out a task with pre-determined results often within a given amount of time, energy, or both[citation needed]. In other words the abilities that one possesses. (Source: Wikipedia)
Luck is not a skill. @Iriaen, I know you are trying very hard to struggle to muster one point, but trying to convince us that luck is skill is a very, very stupid idea. If you are 'just trolling', congratulations, you baited most of these people in to replying.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Combat is more accessible, but it is by no means 'easy'. There's a lot of aspects of combat that cater to a lot of playstyles, which is why pvp in Imperian is sort of fun.
Most importantly first: -1 to Sarrius for using wikipedia as a primary reference. You should be ashamed.
As for the actual thread, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Intelligent (not the statpack) people with artefacts have always had a huge advantage. Bad people with artefacts have always been heros until coming up against a person or person's who know how to not get steamrolled by artefacts/trick of the week/etc. The same still applies (you could argue more so, as there are a lot bigger penalties for being put in an unfavourable situation due to the smaller chance of that being caused by bad luck on the rng).
There's another way to state what I am complaining about here. People get things removed that they think are unfair (aeon, retardation, rebounding aura, maybe limb damage, maybe hidden afflictions) and they don't put in anything new to replace them. Once kiting is completely removed from the game instead of just plain useless in most match-ups, what method besides rushing to a damage kill will replace it? Nothing, that's what. You guys don't create new mechanics, you just destroy existing ones. You take these things that would actually get people killed based upon some aspect of human skill out of the game, and then you replace them with more damage skills or some dsl-like skill that we've already seen before.
People have been suggesting replacement mechanics since the dawn of classlead time, the fact that they don't get implemented has been because of a variety of factors like 'the suggestion is bad (says the playerbase)', 'the suggestion is bad (says the administration)', 'my idea is better (everyone)', 'we forgot', 'this is too much work', and 'we'll do a revamp sometime after the Rapture'. I'm pretty sure you know this but I guess it doesn't fit with your narrative
Most importantly first: -1 to Sarrius for using wikipedia as a primary reference. You should be ashamed.
Stupid references are required to argue against stupid points.
You can also use 'ineffective' or 'useless' in place of stupid in the above.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Most importantly first: -1 to Sarrius for using wikipedia as a primary reference. You should be ashamed.
Stupid references are required to argue against stupid points.
You can also use 'ineffective' or 'useless' in place of stupid in the above.
Yeah, come on. I used dictionary.com as a reference, at least. Get with the program. Didn't you learn anything in school?!
OK, OK. I'm sorry. I'm just a spreadsheet using beta male, I don't know how to take any initiative, even in my own learning.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
As for the actual thread, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Intelligent (not the statpack) people with artefacts have always had a huge advantage. Bad people with artefacts have always been heros until coming up against a person or person's who know how to not get steamrolled by artefacts/trick of the week/etc. The same still applies (you could argue more so, as there are a lot bigger penalties for being put in an unfavourable situation due to the smaller chance of that being caused by bad luck on the rng).
Back "in the day" when Iriaen played your heavily artifacted people were almost universally horrible. Most of the good players didn't have heavy artifacts because most of the world was so incredibly terrible that you didn't need them as long as you could heal half-assedly and put together something resembling an offense. It was not only possible for some unartifacted-yet-talented player to thrash six kinds of hell out of some massively artifacted juggernaut, it was the probable outcome; the assumption was basically that if the artifacted player were any good, he wouldn't have had to buy artifacts.
Iriaen seems like he's still running off of the assumption that anybody who's heavily artifacted is a bad player, because good players don't need artifacts. This is not the case; your heavily artifacted fighter nowadays as likely to be an Iluv or an Azefel as he is a Zokor or a Zenigra, because Imperian is a much older game now and we've accumulated toys over time.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
The posts remind me when I was using Nexus and had nothing at first. Illusions didn't work on me cause I had no triggers, just manual curing, and bard was so OP sketches held down a group of 1vs5 no problem. Then I spent 2 weeks using Mathiu's affliction files tediously making a healing system on Nexus, and suddenly I felt like a god when I held up my own against the higher tiered fighters.
Later I would discover how much I was limiting myself and know now luck with RNG, bard class, and self delusion made me think I was actually a good fighter back in the day before Mudlet.
Now I'm just above less crappy like the rest of us
Now I'm just above less crappy like the rest of us
Hey, some of us are still wallowing deep in the pool of crappiness, thank you very much. At best, I occasionally surface for air and a semi-coherent combat strategy.
Comments
Taint doesn't decay when it's not being used, but taint isn't anything like limb damage because 100% taint is not a kill where 100% limb damage is a kill.
Taint builds into damage or afflictions; while you are away from the summoner you are healing damage and afflictions. When you reengage a kiting summoner, the summoner might still have full taint on you, but you are going to be near full health with zero afflictions and your curative balances up, and he's going to be attacking into that. The summoner CANNOT kill you with hit/hit/runrunrun if you have anything that even resembles a clue.
When you reengage the kiting monk, your limbs are just as damaged as they were the last time he hit them. He can then hit them a couple more times and run again. This is a 100% legitimate offense and IT WILL KILL PEOPLE.
This is how the two things are different.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
You remove your pants.
Gnehehehe.
On the flip side, Juran, Khizan, and I are meddling in ho-hum aff builds or maximizing team compositions or damage builds. If you ignore me in defiler you're gonna have a bad time. If you get to 60% health or let Khizan get 100% taint you're gonna have a bad time. Juran and I fought a Wardancer/Templar combo as an Assassin/Malignist and killed them with damage. You can't say that doesn't take a certain amount of application of skill.
A) You're trying to tell me that luck, or the very aspect of chance is "the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well" (dictionary.com) I mean, unless you have that nifty ability to fudge dice rolls, luck isn't a skill you can practice and get better at.
Oh, also-- What is someone like me, exactly, Iriaen?
We're going to go with dice rolling.
Make combat easier --> Everyone else wins by default?
the things that happen to a person because of chance : the accidental way things happen without being planned
: good fortune : good luck
: success in doing or getting something
^ - Source: Merriam-Webster
Combat is more accessible, but it is by no means 'easy'. There's a lot of aspects of combat that cater to a lot of playstyles, which is why pvp in Imperian is sort of fun.
Most importantly first: -1 to Sarrius for using wikipedia as a primary reference. You should be ashamed.
As for the actual thread, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Intelligent (not the statpack) people with artefacts have always had a huge advantage. Bad people with artefacts have always been heros until coming up against a person or person's who know how to not get steamrolled by artefacts/trick of the week/etc. The same still applies (you could argue more so, as there are a lot bigger penalties for being put in an unfavourable situation due to the smaller chance of that being caused by bad luck on the rng).
Iriaen.
also this is still Poe's law as ffffffffff
Back "in the day" when Iriaen played your heavily artifacted people were almost universally horrible. Most of the good players didn't have heavy artifacts because most of the world was so incredibly terrible that you didn't need them as long as you could heal half-assedly and put together something resembling an offense. It was not only possible for some unartifacted-yet-talented player to thrash six kinds of hell out of some massively artifacted juggernaut, it was the probable outcome; the assumption was basically that if the artifacted player were any good, he wouldn't have had to buy artifacts.
Iriaen seems like he's still running off of the assumption that anybody who's heavily artifacted is a bad player, because good players don't need artifacts. This is not the case; your heavily artifacted fighter nowadays as likely to be an Iluv or an Azefel as he is a Zokor or a Zenigra, because Imperian is a much older game now and we've accumulated toys over time.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Later I would discover how much I was limiting myself and know now luck with RNG, bard class, and self delusion made me think I was actually a good fighter back in the day before Mudlet.
Now I'm just above less crappy like the rest of us