A linear game which follows the chess format, who wants to play pay-to-win chess? Imagine that the other guy can buy more pieces than you can. Without any significant random factors to manage, that's what Imperian is approaching being turned into.
So we got rid of aeon, retardation, rebounding, stupidity, dodging, we have no crits, we are going to nerf limb damage and the forum crew wants to get rid of hidden afflictions too.
You guys are those people from MMOs who are like "we shouldn't have crits because they make me lose sometimes" and yet for some reason, pretty much every MMO keeps crits. That's because you guys aren't as smart as you think you are. You make balance suggestions based upon what you think will make it easier for you and refuse to accept the possibility that maybe people like Dregaur were just better at managing risk.
Aeon and retardation were nuked because they were stupid and poorly balanced and that was basically never up for contest. Rebounding was frankly pretty anti-fun for melee classes and a poor balancing factor in any event that tended to exacerbate lag issues. Stupidity was in line with its namesake. Dodging only affected a portion of the classes in the game, and completely broke kill methods. Limb damage has been a shitty time bomb strategy for the entirety of its existence. Hidden afflictions are, if anything, something you should want gone since they're most effective against the unartifacted and the bad coders.
Also, resilience? Morale? Any other pseudonym for crit nullifiers in MMOs? Also, they're kept largely because 1) they're fun in PVE and most MMOs don't want to completely rewrite and revise their combat systems for PVP and 2) crits are - wait for it - a mathematically predictable factor, and most MMOs are not playing with small health/big damage enough that one crit can be so swingy that it can instakill you. Unless you're talking about Diablo 3 PVP in which case just let me know so I can laugh and never stop laughing.
You want to complain about other people being 'not as smart as they think they are' and your entire argument sums up to 'I can't use a bunch of the unfun broken bullshit that used to exist in this game anymore to harvest killmails this isn't fair'
I'd say maybe this is just some elaborate troll but the fact is that if I could believe anyone would say this in seriousness, I'd believe Iriaen could, so good job I guess
You guys are those people from MMOs who are like "we shouldn't have crits because they make me lose sometimes" and yet for some reason, pretty much every MMO keeps crits. That's because you guys aren't as smart as you think you are. You make balance suggestions based upon what you think will make it easier for you and refuse to accept the possibility that maybe people like Dregaur were just better at managing risk.
LoL gradually removed dodging from the game for mostly the same reasons we have removed dodging from Imperian (not that I play LoL nor is this analogy that great).
LoL gradually removed dodging from the game for mostly the same reasons we have removed dodging from Imperian (not that I play LoL nor is this analogy that great).
Well, LoL still has critical hits and every single attack has a randomized factor to the damage dealt. But yes, it's not a good analogy because LoL has graphics, positioning and coordination elements that Imperian doesn't have.
Consider this analogy...
Limb damage: Cures in 1:00, blocked by parry and sometimes rebounding, can get you killed -- nerf it
Taint: Cures in 1:15 (roughly), is not blocked by parry or rebounding, can be applied just as quickly at range, the classes can knock you up in the air and get away to range better than any other class, can get you killed just as well as limb damage can -- do not nerf it
Seriously, it was totally necessary for me to make an ass of myself in this thread because the above is what people are actually trying to get done to Imperian.
If we're going to be clear about all of this, the only problem I have with limb damage is that it promotes 'kiting'. It takes a full minute of non-violence before your limb auto-cures, so someone could attack you once every 45 seconds while running around the arena the entire rest of the minute and they would be advancing their offense.
I do not want to 'nerf limb damage' in any meaningful way relevant to actual combat with people fighting each other. I want to add a channeled (therefore interruptable) skill that restores a limb if you are not being attacked. That way, if someone leaves the fight to heal the damage and afflictions I've caused, I can do the same with their limb damage.
If taint with a doppleganger, danaeus, etc. isn't promoting kiting, it's only because a lot of the summoners have so many artifacts that they can't be bothered to walk out of a room and not because taint doesn't deserve to get at least the same treatment that limb damage does.
Limb damage: Requires 1m (60s) of not being hit for a 'hard' reset. At 100% you take 1 long cure, and 1 short cure that you cannot avoid. You usually get double-broken before you die. Relatively easy to kill with. Can be modified by other afflictions. Damage remains while attacker shields.
Taint: Starts decreasing the the moment you leave the room/shield/etc. At 100% does nothing but take up space. Must be spent to become useful. Must be used intelligently to be amazing. Is not modified by other afflictions. Damage reduced if attacker plays too defense (aka: shields too much)
Like Juran said, you can kite with limb damage. You can't kite with taint. The taint mechanic endorse hitting, hitting some more, hitting again, and keep hitting. You can get away with hit, shield, hit, shield, hit, shield with limb damage.
Something something, should have pk'd after 2006. For all the 'hate' of theory craft, you argument is pretty theory crafted.
If you wanted to classlead an interruptable channeled skill that cleanses someone of taint, I probably wouldn't care. It's a weak analogy, and I'm not aware of anyone actually using this strategy to build up taint mid-fight due to the other momentum factors already built into Summoner combat, but if it's a problem that needs correcting I will not stand in your way.
Edit: Also that image macro is terrible, you should not do that when you post.
yeah his signature is pretty bad, I guess Ahkan imagines himself to be a rude little gremlin, I wonder why
Oh, I blocked his animated gif signature months ago. I was referring to the image macro that you posted that directly repeated what you had just said in your post without adding meaningful content.
A more accurate analogy to limb damage would be vodun. I am certain that you would consider vodun similarly acceptable, due to your status as an alpha male and how much you took advantage of it back in 2006, but for most people the ability to attack and build an offense gradually over time without opening an opportunity for retribution was unwelcomed.
Both vodun and limb damage reward you for not attacking. The degree to which they do so is obviously different, but it is a closer analogy than a finite quickly depleted resource like fanatism or taint.
Seems like ignorance of game mechanics is the only thing you're picking up a degree in. It's a Disney film, Mr. Alpha Male. He's a genetic experiment, not a gremlin.
<--- Genetic experiment. You could say this is taint.
Kiting has a lot of costs associated with it and instead of trying to force everyone to use the same tactics in each fight (something they did in Aetolia to disastrous effect), you could just explain what it is about kiting that is too good, and then try to increase the risks associated with kiting.
How exactly anyone is kiting a summoner who has nin'kharsag, tower tarot, soul chains, a flood artifact, the ability to generate walls and the ability to pre-load surrounding rooms with levitating tarot cards, I don't know. You probably just can't be bothered to take the tactical steps required to prevent effective kiting.
If taint with a doppleganger, danaeus, etc. isn't promoting kiting, it's only because a lot of the summoners have so many artifacts that they can't be bothered to walk out of a room and not because taint doesn't deserve to get at least the same treatment that limb damage does.
So, I think I should take a step back. We should build a foundation of mutual trust and understanding. Maybe we could work on designing a new skill for Imperian. So, looking back at your resume and achievements, I think I've found some source material with which we could build a new ability to replace noctu (because taint is op). So, we're going to spin this as summoners are going to pull an energy, we'll call it key through their cupped palms and project it at their enemy for a variety of effects (dismemberment and death).
AB PEWPEW
Key - Focus the power of the world around you
KAAAAAA - The first syllable with which to charge up your key energy
Clouds - Summon a cloud to do your bidding
MEEEEEE- The second syllable with which to charge up your key energy ATTACK
Vitality-Omega - You can die an rise again
Windwalk - Move faster as if you walk on air
Lesser Transmogrification- Your hair and eye color will change, giving your +1/-1 to stats and damage resistances
HAAAAAA- The third syllable with which to charge up the attack
Omega Shield - Resist the elements
Vitality-Alpha- If you die once, you can die again
Mid level Transmogrification- Your hair and eye color will change again, giving your +2/-2 to stats and damage resistances
MEEEEEA- The fourth syllable of the attack, not similar to the second syllable, it's different.
Death sphere - Form energy into a ball and throw it at the ground (random afflictions --> teamonrays)
Cloudwalk - Fly around on a cloud (levitation + flight)
Reanimation: If your first two vitalities are spent, you may resurrect yourself once.
HAAAAAH- The last syllable of the attack. At the completion of this maneuver it will unleash the stored energy Transmogrification- You will become an unstoppable god beast with +3 to everything. Spirit Bomb- Absolve
Gemstone - You have 7 gem stones that can be used to randomly augment any ability in this skillset or ressurect yourself.
I better watch out, Ahkan and a guy who gets kited while playing as a summoner even though he owns a flood ring and a twisty ring, they're out to get meh.
If we're going to be clear about all of this, the only problem I have with limb damage is that it promotes 'kiting'. It takes a full minute of non-violence before your limb auto-cures, so someone could attack you once every 45 seconds while running around the arena the entire rest of the minute and they would be advancing their offense.
I do not want to 'nerf limb damage' in any meaningful way relevant to actual combat with people fighting each other. I want to add a channeled (therefore interruptable) skill that restores a limb if you are not being attacked. That way, if someone leaves the fight to heal the damage and afflictions I've caused, I can do the same with their limb damage.
Maybe off topic by this point but I'd like this channeled skill not to be the kind that prevents all actions/healing/speaking but should't allow aggressive actions and should be interruptible at some cost to the limb damage offense.
If we're going to be clear about all of this, the only problem I have with limb damage is that it promotes 'kiting'. It takes a full minute of non-violence before your limb auto-cures, so someone could attack you once every 45 seconds while running around the arena the entire rest of the minute and they would be advancing their offense.
I do not want to 'nerf limb damage' in any meaningful way relevant to actual combat with people fighting each other. I want to add a channeled (therefore interruptable) skill that restores a limb if you are not being attacked. That way, if someone leaves the fight to heal the damage and afflictions I've caused, I can do the same with their limb damage.
Maybe off topic by this point but I'd like this channeled skill not to be the kind that prevents all actions/healing/speaking but should't allow aggressive actions and should be interruptible at some cost to the limb damage offense.
You could make salient arguements that there are balance problems with limb damage as an uninterruptable kill window, or that the balance of limb damage with feint vs. parry is tilted too heavily in favor of the offensive. I am not attempting to address either of these points, because those arguments could potentially change the balance and usability of entire classes.
The only thing I am addressing is 'fleeing as a practical offense'. If someone leaves the room and stops attacking you entirely in order to reset the fight, it should be reset for all parties involved.
How exactly anyone is kiting a summoner who has nin'kharsag, tower tarot, soul chains, a flood artifact, the ability to generate walls and the ability to pre-load surrounding rooms with levitating tarot cards, I don't know.
They don't have to kite. Most of them can just spam shield or some kind of disable over and over because combo/shield/shield/repeat is a winning offense for a limb damage class.
That aside, the flood ring parts as well as floods, soulchains has the same failure rate as piety, and the monk/warden/etc can afford to spend a few tries failing at movement because that doesn't cost them momentum.
If you actually fought, you might know these things, which is why the title of this thread is absolutely hilarious. It's a "Rant against Theorycrafting" coming from an armchair quarterback with no practical experience in the modern game who does nothing but theorycraft.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
If there's a non-limb damage class that can't counter kiting (summoner not being such a class) then that class could receive an upgrade to its mobility game without having to change something that isn't broken. Taint is very analogous to limb damage, the difference is that taint is easier to place in every possible way.
Want to know what a good kiting class is? A summoner using danaeus, nin'kharsag, doppleganger and retreating into some levitated tarot cards. A monk that loses their stance when they try to swim through your flood, then walk over your rubble, then quite possibly hit soul chains, and is unable to damage your limbs from outside of the room, and can hit your parry if they start attacking again, is not a good kiting class outside of a handful of matchups. Maybe a Diabolist would have more trouble, but all you have to do is set up some walls ahead of time, at which point the Diabolist has some passive effects and the monk doesn't, so the Diabolist wins in a wall-smashing contest anyway.
There's another way to state what I am complaining about here. People get things removed that they think are unfair (aeon, retardation, rebounding aura, maybe limb damage, maybe hidden afflictions) and they don't put in anything new to replace them. Once kiting is completely removed from the game instead of just plain useless in most match-ups, what method besides rushing to a damage kill will replace it? Nothing, that's what. You guys don't create new mechanics, you just destroy existing ones. You take these things that would actually get people killed based upon some aspect of human skill out of the game, and then you replace them with more damage skills or some dsl-like skill that we've already seen before.
How exactly anyone is kiting a summoner who has nin'kharsag, tower tarot, soul chains, a flood artifact, the ability to generate walls and the ability to pre-load surrounding rooms with levitating tarot cards, I don't know.
They don't have to kite. Most of them can just spam shield or some kind of disable over and over because combo/shield/shield/repeat is a winning offense for a limb damage class.
That aside, the flood ring parts as well as floods, soulchains has the same failure rate as piety, and the monk/warden/etc can afford to spend a few tries failing at movement because that doesn't cost them momentum.
If you actually fought, you might know these things, which is why the title of this thread is absolutely hilarious. It's a "Rant against Theorycrafting" coming from an armchair quarterback with no practical experience in the modern game who does nothing but theorycraft.
And Juran's proposed solution would be useless against your definition of kiting, since the person is right there and can hit them when they see them starting the channeled healing effect, which would presumably stop that skill from working, unless Juran imagines that being hit doesn't stop the skill, which would mean that being tanky enough would render limb damage useless. Which is, I guess, the kind of thing that you guys would like to see.
Just to clear the water since Ahkan has released enough ink by now:
1. Taint doesn't diminish over time unless it's being used or the timer clears.
2. No one sits at 100% taint without using it unless they have a good reason for it, so the idea that taint hits 100% and then stops being useful is silly.
3. Juran has been suggesting a channeled healing skill for limb damage, not me. I suggested a skill to trade limb damage and taint for afflictions in another thread, whereas you guys (excepting Juran) only want a way to heal limb damage and not a way to heal taint.
1. Taint does not diminish over time, it just poofs! (<-- corrected). Limb damage is 6 timers of 60s, taint is 1 of 60s. You made the comparison that the two were similar. They still aren't
2. Your 'exception' to your 'rule' is 'skill' which would be the player being the 'random' factor you want. 100% limb damage = break. 100% taint = nothing. This is correct.
3. You suggested a skill to remove taint because it was linear. Juran suggest his limb healing skill. You said Juran's limb healing skill was bad because whatever. Your skill is equally bad for whatever.
Maybe you're unclear how this works. You're supposed to offer evidence and facts as to why I'm wrong. Not double back on your own argument to undermine your own argument and end up agreeing with me. You're almost close to understanding how summoner works and how it's not limb damage. 2 pages per class. Not bad.
Comments
Also, resilience? Morale? Any other pseudonym for crit nullifiers in MMOs? Also, they're kept largely because 1) they're fun in PVE and most MMOs don't want to completely rewrite and revise their combat systems for PVP and 2) crits are - wait for it - a mathematically predictable factor, and most MMOs are not playing with small health/big damage enough that one crit can be so swingy that it can instakill you. Unless you're talking about Diablo 3 PVP in which case just let me know so I can laugh and never stop laughing.
You want to complain about other people being 'not as smart as they think they are' and your entire argument sums up to 'I can't use a bunch of the unfun broken bullshit that used to exist in this game anymore to harvest killmails this isn't fair'
Transmogrification- You will become an unstoppable god beast with +3 to everything.
Spirit Bomb- Absolve
Attack Frodo
Not to mention, raksha band is for escaping, flood ring is for preventing escape. Do you know what an analogy is?
Maybe off topic by this point but I'd like this channeled skill not to be the kind that prevents all actions/healing/speaking but should't allow aggressive actions and should be interruptible at some cost to the limb damage offense.
The only thing I am addressing is 'fleeing as a practical offense'. If someone leaves the room and stops attacking you entirely in order to reset the fight, it should be reset for all parties involved.
They don't have to kite. Most of them can just spam shield or some kind of disable over and over because combo/shield/shield/repeat is a winning offense for a limb damage class.
That aside, the flood ring parts as well as floods, soulchains has the same failure rate as piety, and the monk/warden/etc can afford to spend a few tries failing at movement because that doesn't cost them momentum.
If you actually fought, you might know these things, which is why the title of this thread is absolutely hilarious. It's a "Rant against Theorycrafting" coming from an armchair quarterback with no practical experience in the modern game who does nothing but theorycraft.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Maybe you're unclear how this works. You're supposed to offer evidence and facts as to why I'm wrong. Not double back on your own argument to undermine your own argument and end up agreeing with me. You're almost close to understanding how summoner works and how it's not limb damage. 2 pages per class. Not bad.