Even at 10 reflections(90-100% faith)/lyre/wand the turtling can still occur enough to secure kills. I hope the lyre and wand get a decent review, but I'd be happy with that as the solution until next classlead.
The biggest gripe I have with Reflection is that everyone has it. Something that strong should have some sort of opportunity cost associated. Taking the game's strongest defensive skill should require giving up the potential to get something else like Removal and it really doesn't.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
Personally, I'd like to see the following go away: Wand of reflection, shiny apple, ritual reflection. Taking one of the most powerful defensive skills that's meant to be limited to one circle and handing it out on promos, rituals, etc is a bad idea. The wand used to be vastly different!
The wand used to be like reflection ritual, but with an hour long cooldown, 800cr cost and it even gave less reflections. So, revert it to that, or get rid of it entirely - Single, repeat reflections should go back to being a class skill, on a class balanced around them.
The old-style wand still exists on Achaea - Here's how the wand used to work:
Wand of Reflection: 800 credits
- Causes reflections of yourself to appear. Most attacks made upon you
will hit and destroy a reflection, and all reflections must be
destroyed before you can be hit. Any aggressive moves by you will
destroy all your reflections. These wands are great for when you get
jumped, or when you're in battle and need a short breather to catch
up on healingafflictions.
- They can only be used once per Achaeanday (once per hour), and give
you a handful of reflections each time.
Personally, I'd like to see the following go away: Wand of reflection, shiny apple, ritual reflection. Taking one of the most powerful defensive skills that's meant to be limited to one circle and handing it out on promos, rituals, etc is a bad idea. The wand used to be vastly different!
The wand used to be like reflection ritual, but with an hour long cooldown, 800cr cost and it even gave less reflections. So, revert it to that, or get rid of it entirely - Single, repeat reflections should go back to being a class skill, on a class balanced around them.
The old-style wand still exists on Achaea - Here's how the wand used to work:
Wand of Reflection: 800 credits
- Causes reflections of yourself to appear. Most attacks made upon you
will hit and destroy a reflection, and all reflections must be
destroyed before you can be hit. Any aggressive moves by you will
destroy all your reflections. These wands are great for when you get
jumped, or when you're in battle and need a short breather to catch
up on healingafflictions.
- They can only be used once per Achaeanday (once per hour), and give
you a handful of reflections each time.
By that rationale, Acrobatic Boots should also not exist.
Personally, I'd like to see the following go away: Wand of reflection, shiny apple, ritual reflection. Taking one of the most powerful defensive skills that's meant to be limited to one circle and handing it out on promos, rituals, etc is a bad idea. The wand used to be vastly different!
The wand used to be like reflection ritual, but with an hour long cooldown, 800cr cost and it even gave less reflections. So, revert it to that, or get rid of it entirely - Single, repeat reflections should go back to being a class skill, on a class balanced around them.
The old-style wand still exists on Achaea - Here's how the wand used to work:
Wand of Reflection: 800 credits
- Causes reflections of yourself to appear. Most attacks made upon you
will hit and destroy a reflection, and all reflections must be
destroyed before you can be hit. Any aggressive moves by you will
destroy all your reflections. These wands are great for when you get
jumped, or when you're in battle and need a short breather to catch
up on healingafflictions.
- They can only be used once per Achaeanday (once per hour), and give
you a handful of reflections each time.
By that rationale, Acrobatic Boots should also not exist.
Acrobat boots were balanced around being rare, they were auction only and should have stayed that way.
I would support changing them, they give a great deal of mobility and escape to classes that don't need it.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
Speaking as possibly the squishiest combatant in the game (non-artied engineer), I hope the reflections are not completely nerfed. They may be overkill for those of us with upwards of seven hundred health, but when you have less then four hundred raw it looks mighty appealing to have the next ten or twenty attacks soaked up. Particularly since this particular class relies on in-combat resource generation (focus) that resets every time you change targets. Give me little health and the kill method of damage over time, and you bet I'll take some cheesing/reflecting to go with that.
That's not to say I think everything is perfect as is - but for those of us who are relatively new and haven't chosen tanking professions, going into combat against any veteran feels like a lost cause from the word go, no matter how much training we put in. Things like this help give breathing room in a battle, a chance to regroup, get focused and go back at it.
I don't think nerfing artifacts is the way to go. Especially not such a drastic, blanket nerf. Balancing the skills themselves would be much more ideal.
Its a differing range between classes but looking just at knights. The difference between a fully artifacted knight hitting me vs a non artefacted knight is pretty insane.
I can stand there tanking non arti knight damage as a shaman or defiler without really having to do anything at all but if I take off my artefacts Pellerin cleaves though me damage wise dropping me to red in a few combos.
Maybe another solution would be to just make all the artefacts much much cheaper. The buy in, either timewise or money wise, right now to be able to compete is quite high and I do believe that anything we can do to get more players in with a cheaper buy in will benefit the game.,
I agree with @Eochaid and @hyperionus. I’m a sub-400 hp no-arti 92 Diabolist, and options to participate necessarily require groups...which is cool! I enjoy the teamwork, and our resident veterans are awesome and helpful.
However, the barrier to entry for artifacts is kinda rough (though superior here than in other IRE games), and artifacts are a huge deal. I suppose it ultimately falls down to the vision the makers have for Imperian.
Is this an exclusive environment with a high barrier to entry and a small but seasoned player base?
Is this a heavily populated world where no one is safe because even beginners pose a credible threat?
Are vast discrepancies in power a good thing because it provides incentive to put in time and money to create a memorable and iconic avatar?
Are we gritty and dark? Are we cozy and safe? Is Kabaal the prettiest peacock?
As someone with no artifacts, I can safely say that my damage is pretty mediocre in comparison with other classes which is why I had to learn how to kill by either luck or really good timing in team or the rare solo fights. I am grateful though for daily credits, because now grabbing an artifact - is a goal I can work towards rather than relying on bashing up tons of gold and hope someone sells credits for cheaper.
That is exactly right. You need to consider skill balance and artefact balance in concert.
With a few exceptions, such as skills that do not change based on stats or any buffs, no matter how you change the skills you are still going to have a situation where a fully artefacted player is significantly tankier and does significantly more damage than a non artefacted player. Unless you nerf the artefacts directly or indirectly.
If we agree on the problem statement of there being a large difference between artifacted and non artiefacted players to the point as Ryse put it of not being able to compete then the two biggest solutions of straight up nerfing the arti's and balancing around a smaller scale sounds good to me. Simply making them much cheaper and then balancing around everyone being able to achieve a solid level of artefacts also sounds good to me.
If you only want to look at just the Skills themselves then I suppose you could make more skills not effected by stats or artefacts but really that's really just an indirect nerf to artefacts anyway.
The thing is, with daily credits you're (potentially) getting 6-7k credits a year, with promos and such on the side. That to me is obscene amount. My original Imperian, with 5+ years of active play (and over a year of logged in time), retired for around half that. And I raided, rp'd, pvp'd and generally had a grand old time. Though he was never a 'top tier' combatant (though his druid phase was pretty successful hoho), he was effective, and led well enough that I never felt hampered.
I suppose fundamentally the question to me is, do you want instant gratification, or longevity? I'm an MMO style player, and thus artifacts are the 'endgame' of Imperian to a degree (at least in the pvp/pve arenas), and if you make them common/worth less I lose my goals (which in retrospect is what lead to my leaving the first time around, though more because without welfare credits there were no more achievable goals).
Lastly, if you're unaspected and without mini skills (particularly if you're AM), you (we) will be fragile, aspect is wholly achievable, and I've already had a moan about lessons on these forums, but honestly, artifacts are boons, skills are must-haves, and they should be way more accessible than they are even now in free Imp.
I think people who are somewhat new or returned and started again also has to think about what insane amount of both $ and time people had to build their characters. The artifact level of Imperian is so very high because those left before the big retire-party and also those before played for so long, so yes, nowadays you more or less "need" some artifacts to compete but you can get that with dailys.
There has always been big whales in Imperian that people said the same argument about, that you simply cannot face them because they have this and that, then you just have to compete at your level or "cheat" like Lartus and start sneak in your kills when others don't expect it.
One thing people may not be taking into consideration is the influx of org credits injected directly into the game. There are 4k credits distributed to orgs on roughly a biweekly basis, and said orgs should be distributing those to their players.
I'm not convinced that artifacts need to be nerfed or even made cheaper, at least as a blanket solution.
I do think, though, that getting aspect should, at the very least, give enough lessons to tri-trans a profession without relying on anything other than leveling.
Agreed with upping the pre-Aspect lesson payoff, even if it is not applied retroactively. The expectation is that Aspects lead the charge, and are in a position to be able to pass on their firsthand knowledge of their own profession skills to novices. Even if they "suck". Cause, given our current population, the title of "resident veteran" will continue to be dependent on who is awake in your org (or on NEWBIE) at the precise instant that someone less experienced novice (e.g., combat-novice or arti-novice) has a question. Top tier = top 10% = can be counted on one hand, may not be awake while you are. Otherwise, SHRUG/QQ.
Dailies and Orgcredits incentivise post-aspect activity, teamwork, and potentially, leadership. INCLUSIVE. Allowing the non-illuminati to test out artifacts (via doubloons) before dropping their lifetime credit savings on them (e.g., instead of multiclassing), INCLUSIVE. Since the rule change, I have personally participated in more group hunts (Guild and Org) and have seen more non-whales and absolute beginner participation in sparring and event Arenas than ever before. No, those activities do not currently earn Orgcredits, but they are a training step towards ones that do, and therefore have value. It's not about making instant beasts. We've read that the beasts are bored. It's about changing attitudes. Your results may vary.
Artifacts. Full disclosure is that I own no artifacts, except what individual, generous players have handed me to encourage my PK development. Assuming that the PK community wishes to increase participation in all-inclusive PK should be a given, because it nets YOU more people to fight. If the PK community would like to protect their elite status through a means other than their superior gameplay and coding prowess, then I'm unsure of how that fits into the new F2P monetary model. That said, perhaps you DO have enough PKers to keep you logging in. Look at your personal artifact list and decide how often you get to use them.
Enjoying this discussion, though. Before reading this thread, I had always assumed that classleads was a "coding and mechanics-only" based discussion.
@Zaxador I totally get your point and I agree that you don't want to just give everyone everything and have them get bored too quickly but on the other hand do you want to have to play for half a year to have the basic stuff needed to compete?
But it doesn't take that long if you get people to help with achievements. It's barely taken Karne two months to get all the stuff he has. I'd be the same if I hadnt switched classes like 8 times. Eta: we've been competing since like week 2.
Comments
Like a daydream.. or a fever
Personally, I'd like to see the following go away: Wand of reflection, shiny apple, ritual reflection. Taking one of the most powerful defensive skills that's meant to be limited to one circle and handing it out on promos, rituals, etc is a bad idea. The wand used to be vastly different!
The wand used to be like reflection ritual, but with an hour long cooldown, 800cr cost and it even gave less reflections. So, revert it to that, or get rid of it entirely - Single, repeat reflections should go back to being a class skill, on a class balanced around them.
The old-style wand still exists on Achaea - Here's how the wand used to work:
I would support changing them, they give a great deal of mobility and escape to classes that don't need it.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
That's not to say I think everything is perfect as is - but for those of us who are relatively new and haven't chosen tanking professions, going into combat against any veteran feels like a lost cause from the word go, no matter how much training we put in. Things like this help give breathing room in a battle, a chance to regroup, get focused and go back at it.
I'd love to see some scaling changes to reduce the difference between a fully artifacted player and a non artifacted player.
Half resistances, half the damage buff etc.
More thinking about players as opposed to hunting.
Its a differing range between classes but looking just at knights. The difference between a fully artifacted knight hitting me vs a non artefacted knight is pretty insane.
I can stand there tanking non arti knight damage as a shaman or defiler without really having to do anything at all but if I take off my artefacts Pellerin cleaves though me damage wise dropping me to red in a few combos.
Maybe another solution would be to just make all the artefacts much much cheaper. The buy in, either timewise or money wise, right now to be able to compete is quite high and I do believe that anything we can do to get more players in with a cheaper buy in will benefit the game.,
However, the barrier to entry for artifacts is kinda rough (though superior here than in other IRE games), and artifacts are a huge deal. I suppose it ultimately falls down to the vision the makers have for Imperian.
Is this an exclusive environment with a high barrier to entry and a small but seasoned player base?
Is this a heavily populated world where no one is safe because even beginners pose a credible threat?
Are vast discrepancies in power a good thing because it provides incentive to put in time and money to create a memorable and iconic avatar?
Are we gritty and dark? Are we cozy and safe? Is Kabaal the prettiest peacock?
That is exactly right. You need to consider skill balance and artefact balance in concert.
With a few exceptions, such as skills that do not change based on stats or any buffs, no matter how you change the skills you are still going to have a situation where a fully artefacted player is significantly tankier and does significantly more damage than a non artefacted player. Unless you nerf the artefacts directly or indirectly.
If we agree on the problem statement of there being a large difference between artifacted and non artiefacted players to the point as Ryse put it of not being able to compete then the two biggest solutions of straight up nerfing the arti's and balancing around a smaller scale sounds good to me. Simply making them much cheaper and then balancing around everyone being able to achieve a solid level of artefacts also sounds good to me.
If you only want to look at just the Skills themselves then I suppose you could make more skills not effected by stats or artefacts but really that's really just an indirect nerf to artefacts anyway.
I suppose fundamentally the question to me is, do you want instant gratification, or longevity? I'm an MMO style player, and thus artifacts are the 'endgame' of Imperian to a degree (at least in the pvp/pve arenas), and if you make them common/worth less I lose my goals (which in retrospect is what lead to my leaving the first time around, though more because without welfare credits there were no more achievable goals).
Lastly, if you're unaspected and without mini skills (particularly if you're AM), you (we) will be fragile, aspect is wholly achievable, and I've already had a moan about lessons on these forums, but honestly, artifacts are boons, skills are must-haves, and they should be way more accessible than they are even now in free Imp.
(may vanish for periods of time)
There has always been big whales in Imperian that people said the same argument about, that you simply cannot face them because they have this and that, then you just have to compete at your level or "cheat" like Lartus and start sneak in your kills when others don't expect it.
As Zaxador said, you can still participate.
I'm not convinced that artifacts need to be nerfed or even made cheaper, at least as a blanket solution.
I do think, though, that getting aspect should, at the very least, give enough lessons to tri-trans a profession without relying on anything other than leveling.
(may vanish for periods of time)
I totally get your point and I agree that you don't want to just give everyone everything and have them get bored too quickly but on the other hand do you want to have to play for half a year to have the basic stuff needed to compete?
Eta: we've been competing since like week 2.