I did not expect Magick to come out in full, uneducated force so fast. A monolith sigil will also disrupt lust. If you are camping a room, drop a monolith, hazeward, or consecrate.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
You might also consider something as simple as a switch to not reject lust. This can be a blessing in-room when a Summoner is using the tarot as a means to stall.
As it stands, Empress is still incredibly powerful when compared to other summons. It's the only summon that still has a global range, it's instant, and defending against it requires staying on balance continuously, because the window you have to reject lust is small enough that even banishing the demon puts you at risk of not rejecting in time.
You have to choose whether you want Empress to be: A) the opportunistic gotcha you can use against unprepared combatants (keep the instant global summon, but make defending against it easier for people who know they're being targeted), or the combat summon you have to break up groups (lose out of area summons, have lust fade on its own after a short window). You can't have both in one skill though, especially when your circle already has the largest number of summons.
This is not how you defend against Empress. I've explained it a few times before, but it bears repeating:
If you get lusted, rap your disruptor and touch shield before you start rejecting. Not only does shield prevent further lusts, it also prevents empress altogether, meaning you can counter any empress attempt by doing either or both of these actions. What gets people summoned away is when they automatically reject lust every time they're hit with it, causing them to end up off balance.
Summoning the doppleganger is 2.75s, and flinging lust is 4.2s. If someone is exorcising, that's a minimum of ~7 seconds between lusts. The only times I'm ever successful with lust are a) mid-combat spam and someone doesn't notice, b) someone doesn't recognize what it is and why they should reject it, or (the most common) c) someone's defense against lust is to reject it instantly and forget about shielding or dropping a monolith.
Not understanding how a skill works isn't justification for rendering it obsolete. I won't even comment on the other doppleganger reports put up, because they show an equal lack of understanding.
EDIT: Holy crap I missed a bunch of replies, man I'm slow. Yeah, same thing everyone said.
Set your system to not reject lust while in the middle of a fight. Otherwise, you're giving the Noctu a form of psuedo-entangle. If there's a monolith down in the room or a disruptor fork active, there's no reason to reject lust since you have protection from being summoned away.
As for eye sigils, unless the Bell tattoo has changed, Bell should also tell you if there's someone in the room with you without alerting the Renegade/Assassin. However, there's also the Detect Life ability in Aryana.
Just because something is strong doesn't mean it needs a downgrade. Phase has been throughout the history of IRE a powerful infiltration and spying ability but I don't believe Imperian allows them to be offensive while inside of it like Aetolia with abilities like Abduct and Ethergaze, so it begs the question why such a change in that classlead is necessary because it's incredibly damaging to what Phase offers with little in the way of feasible justification.
Renegades and Assassins can attack each other while phased which is awesome. Unphase is instant, so throwing an eye sigil is also instant out of phase.
Surely the better thing to do wohld be to aim for making the Life power a little more useable.
Perhaps swap it to an ability that allows you to "see" phased/blackwinded for 10s. If someone is running around on you phased, you can find them within a 10s window.
No, the proper solution is not to shoehorn all of magic into picking a single aspect. As I replied to Iluv, both antimagick and demonic have anti-phase abilities that are plenty good without an upgrade to Aryana sight, so there is no reason to make a change that affects them too. Eye sigil is clearly the outlier, and by making the change on the sigil rather than on aspect powers, the solution is limited to the scope of the problem.
Furthermore, your solution is almost exactly the same as my proposed solution 2, only I suggested making it something you can do by crushing an eye sigil rather than on an aspect power for the reasons stated. Did you even actually read my report, or just Iluv's excerpt?
Lol did I read it correctly or did Camaris ask for -shadowplant- and +2 afflictions for Bard also because he doesn't survive 2 rounds doesn't mean Mathiaus doesn't. Dissonance for Mathiaus is +10dps. One would think with access to your own class, you should be able to provide numbers, not 'estimates' (really?)
Eye sigil is the best anti-phase defense circle wise because it is available to every profession in the circle. Furthermore, a renegade can set up a room with traps, phase and Eye sigils to eye a phasing enemy from unphase without channeling any ability. Life used to do what you want crush eye to do and it was removed for good reason. You want to give back that ability to every profession in Magick, the circle that already have the best anti-phase defence.
Surely the better thing to do wohld be to aim for making the Life power a little more useable.
Perhaps swap it to an ability that allows you to "see" phased/blackwinded for 10s. If someone is running around on you phased, you can find them within a 10s window.
No, the proper solution is not to shoehorn all of magic into picking a single aspect. As I replied to Iluv, both antimagick and demonic have anti-phase abilities that are plenty good without an upgrade to Aryana sight, so there is no reason to make a change that affects them too. Eye sigil is clearly the outlier, and by making the change on the sigil rather than on aspect powers, the solution is limited to the scope of the problem.
Furthermore, your solution is almost exactly the same as my proposed solution 2, only I suggested making it something you can do by crushing an eye sigil rather than on an aspect power for the reasons stated. Did you even actually read my report, or just Iluv's excerpt?
Eye sigils are already a poor replacement for a class ability (but that balances out to the fact they can be sold in any shop, think about that for a moment). But they are open to everyone, including Demonic and AM if they choose to use them. Upgrading the life power is just a simpler step to achieving the same status of what you desire.
I'm afraid I'd only managed to drink two cups of coffee before 2pm, thus I wasn't really in the mood for typing out a laborious reply when there are quite literally tens of people who would like to do it.
I concede the point about empress, since I was under the impression that monolith did not stop it given what I was told during a shardfall a few days ago.
However, in response to just not rejecting mid fight, that still doesn't address the other problem I pointed out on the case, which is that needing to constantly reject is a huge detriment to classes that rely on enemy management for some portion of their offence. Would you agree then with keeping lust balance time as it currently is, but make it so lust no longer unenemies/allies?
Also... I'm not really sure how to respond to the statement that eye sigils are superior to the 10 room seance bottlenecks and juxtaposition enter-and-die alternatives... Sure, you need to flag down someone of a particular profession to use them, but at least they actually *work*.
Why would you trust anybody in your own circle to give you reliable combat knowledge? I mean, we are talking about a circle whose reports right now consist of:
Druids need more utility/toys. We are asking for niche skills when Garryn told us not to. We are using words like overpowered when Garryn told us not to. Bards are underpowered
All of these things point towards the conclusion that your circle is clueless.
Please go out and test things instead of taking their sensational bullshit as fact.
Please bring numbers or solid theory to the table instead of treating classlead reports as a letter to Santa.
Edit: seance and juxtapose require a human element of a class and being stationary. Seance does not trigger unless the player is present on the rite, unless that report neber went through. Juxtapose is a true channel (you can do literal nothing while running it). ALL of Magick get eye sigils and they are virtually costless.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Would you agree then with keeping lust balance time as it currently is, but make it so lust no longer unenemies/allies?
No, because Lust is supposed to do exactly that and changing that would have no effect on the original reasoning as to why you wanted to change Lust. You would have to come up with another classlead to explain why you would want lust to stop unenemying people and I doubt you would have a good reason.
Also... I'm not really sure how to respond to the statement that eye sigils are superior to the 10 room seance bottlenecks and juxtaposition enter-and-die alternatives... Sure, you need to flag down someone of a particular profession to use them, but at least they actually *work*.
The response I would accept from you would be "I'm not aware of how the balance in this game works and therefore unable to create classleads which address real issues that would end in the betterment of the game's balance and not create more problems."
And if I recall correctly from the last classlead session (or two classleads ago) Seance can only be active in one room at a time now.
Please bring numbers or solid theory to the table instead of treating classlead reports as a letter to Santa.
Calm down, not everyone is able to cling to the tails of Azefel and Septus to the nirvana of Great Combat Knowledge.
I'm sorry, is turning on timestamps in your client or getting volunteers on market too hard for some people?
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Surely the better thing to do wohld be to aim for making the Life power a little more useable.
Perhaps swap it to an ability that allows you to "see" phased/blackwinded for 10s. If someone is running around on you phased, you can find them within a 10s window.
No, the proper solution is not to shoehorn all of magic into picking a single aspect. As I replied to Iluv, both antimagick and demonic have anti-phase abilities that are plenty good without an upgrade to Aryana sight, so there is no reason to make a change that affects them too. Eye sigil is clearly the outlier, and by making the change on the sigil rather than on aspect powers, the solution is limited to the scope of the problem.
Furthermore, your solution is almost exactly the same as my proposed solution 2, only I suggested making it something you can do by crushing an eye sigil rather than on an aspect power for the reasons stated. Did you even actually read my report, or just Iluv's excerpt?
Eye sigils are clearly an outlier, yes, but they're an outlier in the other direction. They are hands down the best antiphase mechanism possessed by any circle, largely because they are available to anybody without any sort of class restrictions.
Want to know if somebody phased is in the room? Throw one. The mats cost something like 15 gold so anybody who's not a newbie can afford to burn hundreds of them a day without noteworthy expense.
Also, get better at learning where to throw them. Here's how it works for me in Khandava.
Ressnik phases in and kills Mereis because she's BAD and doesn't stop devour.
I see the death, head to the gates, and shardwall the exit.
Several seconds later, I eye sigil and Ressnik dies to guards, because his autowalker pathed into the wall and stopped.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Dissonance should be worse than incinerate, it costs nothing to put up besides the eq to play it.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Please bring numbers or solid theory to the table instead of treating classlead reports as a letter to Santa.
Calm down, not everyone is able to cling to the tails of Azefel and Septus to the nirvana of Great Combat Knowledge.
I'm sorry, is turning on timestamps in your client or getting volunteers on market too hard for some people?
Apparently, yes.
I've been trying for almost a week to get a tarot user to test exactly this, first half of the week in tells to people who I knew were summoner combatants and second half of the week as market tells asking for a tarot user. So yes, it really is that hard, because in that time I got zero responses.
While your eye sigil strategy works fine in that case you just mentioned, imagine the case where you're chasing a competent sab who actually watched the screen after turning on the autowalker. The odds of you throwing the eye in the window between when he hit the shardwall and when he left to stand 10 minutes in some obscure room in the city before unphasing and gazing out would be excrutiatingly low. You can't claim that incompetent opponents are a reason a skill is balanced, particularly because magic isn't fighting incompetent opponents.
I can accept that you don't think my particular solutions are gokd, but I find it hard to believe you don't see the problem.
No, the proper solution is not to shoehorn all of magic into picking a single aspect. As I replied to Iluv, both antimagick and demonic have anti-phase abilities that are plenty good
Juxtaposition is terrible when compared to seance and eye sigils. Do you even know how it works? Juxtaposition is the cleave of the unphasing world. You have to stand in a room, autocuring off, triggers off, and blow a stupid amount of haze energy over time to unphase someone on entrance. If they're phased in the room with you juxtaposition will not unphase them. It only unphases on entrance (not exit). The best way to use eye sigils is cleverly, like Khizan explained.
@Kalon Most of your problems with dopplegangers are bad player decisions. I'm willing to upvote all of your anti-doppleganger classleads in exchange for the parity of having the skills duplicated as anti-root, both in room and out. Everyone else has already explained how Magick as a group, mishandle lust.
Find a renegade. Have that renegade phase and set snares traps with alarm. That renegade can now unphase and go away from the keyboard and set a trigger for when the trap alarm message hits to throw an eye sigil. That alone is just 100% better than Juxtaposition which is not only channeled, but resource heavy.
Player error should never be a reason why something gets buffed, only simplified. A lot of Magick seems to forget this. "We have no good Renegades to do that" is no excuse for the possibility not being your response.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Nope, I didn't actually realize you have summoner.
On my reasoning for why I would want lust to work as a prerequisite for empress but not force unenemy, it was in the same post (and in the original report): you have stated that the "correct" response to a summoner flinging lust in-room is to not reject until later, because the balance cost is too high. That doesn't work for classes who use their enemies list for more than highlighting, because it gives them the choice of spending more time rejecting than the summoner spends lusting, or effectively losing a potentially important piece of their offence.
What still requires an enemy list in your circle? Renegade traps? Arcane usages of Druid tornado? Big loss. We have to lose rites, and we do not bitch about it.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
I concede the point about empress, since I was under the impression that monolith did not stop it given what I was told during a shardfall a few days ago.
Why does no one listen to me? I seem to get the response: 'but I don't have a fork' every day.
I concede the point about empress, since I was under the impression that monolith did not stop it given what I was told during a shardfall a few days ago.
Why does no one listen to me? I seem to get the response: 'but I don't have a fork' every day.
Just because it still seems really weird, even having heard it. It's the only case I know of where monolith blocks being summoned out of a room rather than teleporting yourself into/out of a room. I trust you though, just doubt I'll remember after the next time I take a break from the game, since it's very unintuitive. (And could probably stand to be added to the AB file)
Also, pending a bunch of tests when I go home today, I'm going to be removing the eye sigil report. You've convinced me to at least do more ivestigation, if I can manage to find a renegade who isn't afk logging someone's conversations through phase.
I'll also be compiling a list of enemies list magic abilities for you Sarrius, though I must point out that "our classes lose all of rites" is actually an argument in *favor* of being able to enemy through lust, even if you aren't bitching about it.
While your eye sigil strategy works fine in that case you just mentioned, imagine the case where you're chasing a competent sab who actually watched the screen after turning on the autowalker. The odds of you throwing the eye in the window between when he hit the shardwall and when he left to stand 10 minutes in some obscure room in the city before unphasing and gazing out would be excrutiatingly low.
Here's the thing. A competent Sab who hits an unaware target and goes to bug out immediately should get away every time. They're stealth assassins, not suicide bombers.
The time to catch a Saboteur is while they are attacking and exposed. If they hit an unaware problem, they should have a reasonable expectation of getting away cleanly. The defense against this is not letting yourself get caught unawares. This is a matter of individual responsibility, though; it is not a thing a single competent person can do to protect the entire city, and this is as it should be.
Just because it still seems really weird, even having heard it. It's the only case I know of where monolith blocks being summoned out of a room rather than teleporting yourself into/out of a room.
AB DEVOTION DELIVERANCE
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Comments
This is not how you defend against Empress. I've explained it a few times before, but it bears repeating:
If you get lusted, rap your disruptor and touch shield before you start rejecting. Not only does shield prevent further lusts, it also prevents empress altogether, meaning you can counter any empress attempt by doing either or both of these actions. What gets people summoned away is when they automatically reject lust every time they're hit with it, causing them to end up off balance.
Summoning the doppleganger is 2.75s, and flinging lust is 4.2s. If someone is exorcising, that's a minimum of ~7 seconds between lusts. The only times I'm ever successful with lust are a) mid-combat spam and someone doesn't notice, b) someone doesn't recognize what it is and why they should reject it, or (the most common) c) someone's defense against lust is to reject it instantly and forget about shielding or dropping a monolith.
Not understanding how a skill works isn't justification for rendering it obsolete. I won't even comment on the other doppleganger reports put up, because they show an equal lack of understanding.
EDIT: Holy crap I missed a bunch of replies, man I'm slow. Yeah, same thing everyone said.
Furthermore, your solution is almost exactly the same as my proposed solution 2, only I suggested making it something you can do by crushing an eye sigil rather than on an aspect power for the reasons stated. Did you even actually read my report, or just Iluv's excerpt?
I'm afraid I'd only managed to drink two cups of coffee before 2pm, thus I wasn't really in the mood for typing out a laborious reply when there are quite literally tens of people who would like to do it.
However, in response to just not rejecting mid fight, that still doesn't address the other problem I pointed out on the case, which is that needing to constantly reject is a huge detriment to classes that rely on enemy management for some portion of their offence. Would you agree then with keeping lust balance time as it currently is, but make it so lust no longer unenemies/allies?
Also... I'm not really sure how to respond to the statement that eye sigils are superior to the 10 room seance bottlenecks and juxtaposition enter-and-die alternatives... Sure, you need to flag down someone of a particular profession to use them, but at least they actually *work*.
Druids need more utility/toys.
We are asking for niche skills when Garryn told us not to.
We are using words like overpowered when Garryn told us not to.
Bards are underpowered
All of these things point towards the conclusion that your circle is clueless.
Please go out and test things instead of taking their sensational bullshit as fact.
Please bring numbers or solid theory to the table instead of treating classlead reports as a letter to Santa.
Edit: seance and juxtapose require a human element of a class and being stationary. Seance does not trigger unless the player is present on the rite, unless that report neber went through. Juxtapose is a true channel (you can do literal nothing while running it). ALL of Magick get eye sigils and they are virtually costless.
I'm sorry, is turning on timestamps in your client or getting volunteers on market too hard for some people?
Eye sigils are clearly an outlier, yes, but they're an outlier in the other direction. They are hands down the best antiphase mechanism possessed by any circle, largely because they are available to anybody without any sort of class restrictions.
Want to know if somebody phased is in the room? Throw one. The mats cost something like 15 gold so anybody who's not a newbie can afford to burn hundreds of them a day without noteworthy expense.
Also, get better at learning where to throw them. Here's how it works for me in Khandava.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I've been trying for almost a week to get a tarot user to test exactly this, first half of the week in tells to people who I knew were summoner combatants and second half of the week as market tells asking for a tarot user. So yes, it really is that hard, because in that time I got zero responses.
While your eye sigil strategy works fine in that case you just mentioned, imagine the case where you're chasing a competent sab who actually watched the screen after turning on the autowalker. The odds of you throwing the eye in the window between when he hit the shardwall and when he left to stand 10 minutes in some obscure room in the city before unphasing and gazing out would be excrutiatingly low. You can't claim that incompetent opponents are a reason a skill is balanced, particularly because magic isn't fighting incompetent opponents.
I can accept that you don't think my particular solutions are gokd, but I find it hard to believe you don't see the problem.
@Kalon
Most of your problems with dopplegangers are bad player decisions. I'm willing to upvote all of your anti-doppleganger classleads in exchange for the parity of having the skills duplicated as anti-root, both in room and out. Everyone else has already explained how Magick as a group, mishandle lust.
On my reasoning for why I would want lust to work as a prerequisite for empress but not force unenemy, it was in the same post (and in the original report): you have stated that the "correct" response to a summoner flinging lust in-room is to not reject until later, because the balance cost is too high. That doesn't work for classes who use their enemies list for more than highlighting, because it gives them the choice of spending more time rejecting than the summoner spends lusting, or effectively losing a potentially important piece of their offence.
Just because it still seems really weird, even having heard it. It's the only case I know of where monolith blocks being summoned out of a room rather than teleporting yourself into/out of a room. I trust you though, just doubt I'll remember after the next time I take a break from the game, since it's very unintuitive. (And could probably stand to be added to the AB file)
Also, pending a bunch of tests when I go home today, I'm going to be removing the eye sigil report. You've convinced me to at least do more ivestigation, if I can manage to find a renegade who isn't afk logging someone's conversations through phase.
I'll also be compiling a list of enemies list magic abilities for you Sarrius, though I must point out that "our classes lose all of rites" is actually an argument in *favor* of being able to enemy through lust, even if you aren't bitching about it.
The time to catch a Saboteur is while they are attacking and exposed. If they hit an unaware problem, they should have a reasonable expectation of getting away cleanly. The defense against this is not letting yourself get caught unawares. This is a matter of individual responsibility, though; it is not a thing a single competent person can do to protect the entire city, and this is as it should be.
AB DEVOTION DELIVERANCE
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."