You absolutely SHOULD need to win a large majority of the teamfights to make progress defiling a solid shrine network. You currently aren't doing that, yet keep acting like the problem is entirely with the system, not with the fact that your 'superior' force can't reliably win fights with 2:1 odds and Khandavan backup.
Except it isn't the defenders that get to dictate the fights. It's the defilers. If a shrine is at 100%, YOU get to pick when the timer begins, and then we can only change the windows using bulwark.
Except it isn't the defenders that get to dictate the fights. It's the defilers. If a shrine is at 100%, YOU get to pick when the timer begins, and then we can only change the windows using bulwark.
You guys change our times EVERY time. Through defending, through sanctifying before we defile, bulwark, sceptres. What are you even complaining about here? We haven't even bothered to defile regularly because we felt like you guys clearly needed a breather. Why are you so mad when we're trying SO hard to be SO patient? I mean, we HAVE to start somewhere. Bad luck bro that it's with you. But we're trying to be as humane as we can be and you just don't seem to care at all.
You had us outnumbered already, yet called for Khandavan help and then later tried to justify it because some random warden died to my firewalls. Nevermind that the Khandavan help had been called before I even began using mage.
Then you stopped defiling... to switch which shrines you were defiling, not to give anyone a breather. You keep trying to claim some kind of moral highground or justification for piling on yet more people when you already had us outnumbered, yet every reason given happened after you'd called in more people. Nevertheless, it doesn't feel like this thread is the right place to argue this, as this is about the shrine system as a whole.
So, to summarise my points:
1) It's fine having a PVE timesink attached to a conflict system 2) No, that timesink shouldn't be removed just because some people don't like it 3) It's bad that a new sect can attack an older sect without having any shrines of their own, thereby sidestepping the time-sink 4) No, the system shouldn't change to make defiling easier, because it's already easier to defile than it is to raise and level up shrines
You had us outnumbered already, yet called for Khandavan help and then later tried to justify it because some random warden died to my firewalls. Nevermind that the Khandavan help had been called before I even began using mage.
Then you stopped defiling... to switch which shrines you were defiling.
1. You outnumbered us with the Jeb and crew situation and we didn't whine. 2. Khandava has been helping us on and off. We don't call - some people die and they show up and pick a side. Remember when you had Lartus? And we didn't complain? Khandava has been on and off this whole time because they WANT TO DO SOMETHING, you nut. Not because we asked them. 3. I stopped arguing that we play fair with you guys because you decided to be an idiot and endanger newbies and everyone else by not only putting firewalls in your area. No, but also an adjacent area. Just that area? NO. ANOTHER ADJACENT AREA. You don't seem to know when enough is enough. And you didn't even effectively act with those firewalls - because the only thing that kind of cheap trick is going to kill are littles, which makes you a bully. 4. We stopped defiling to give you guys a break. I was gone all day yesterday because I thought, well, we'll leave them alone. And apparently if I'm not here, no one picks targets. I logged in today and made my choice. The world is not, as you imagine, out to get you. You're just paranoid.
I mean, your entire strategy now is GRAB YELLOW SHARD, KILL NONCOM, HIDE IN HOUSE. So... really, I think we've already won.
That was the first time we've had equal numbers, or outnumbered you, in this entire conflict and it was by what, one person?
And, not sorry, but points 2 through 4 actually make me laugh. Especially 3, because I laid firewalls along a maybe 30-room path, the one person who died to them isn't a newbie at all, he's about level 80 and the leader of a towne, and the funniest part is that you think the sole purpose of the walls was damage. True, I could have capitalised on some of it better (Like I now do!) but that still makes me laugh.
As for grab yellow shard, kill noncom, hide in house...
That's not quite how it went. It was actually: Galt kills Kamaylie, Galt removes Tywin, Galt changes statpack, Galt kills Anarys, Galt kills Anarys again, Galt kills Ulanna, Ohm kills Ulanna, yellow shard is harvested and taken far away, Galt and Ohm go back to harvest the rest of the shards, Anarys, Aodan, Dreacor, Ulanna and Dimitri all turn up so Galt and Ohm skip merrily away, singing tralala falala, safe from the savages and with pockets full of shards.
I may have made the skipping part up. The rest is true, though.
That was the first time we've had equal numbers, or outnumbered you, in this entire conflict and it was by what, one person?
And, not sorry, but points 2 through 4 actually make me laugh. Especially 3, because I laid firewalls along a maybe 30-room path, the one person who died to them isn't a newbie at all, he's about level 80 and the leader of a towne, and the funniest part is that you think the sole purpose of the walls was damage. True, I could have capitalised on some of it better (Like I now do!) but that still makes me laugh.
As for grab yellow shard, kill noncom, hide in house...
That's not quite how it went. It was actually: Galt kills Kamaylie, Galt removes Tywin, Galt changes statpack, Galt kills Anarys, Galt kills Anarys again, Galt kills Ulanna, Ohm kills Ulanna, yellow shard is harvested and taken far away, Galt and Ohm go back to harvest the rest of the shards, Anarys, Aodan, Dreacor, Ulanna and Dimitri all turn up so Galt and Ohm skip merrily away, singing tralala falala, safe from the savages and with pockets full of shards.
I may have made the skipping part up. The rest is true, though.
re: firewalls - like bro, stop saying it, I know that damage wasn't the plan, but that's what you got out of it since your plan sort of... failed otherwise.
re: Arian - he's a noncom and level 80. He doesn't PK. I was worried about newbies and players like Arian, because I'm not a jerk and these thoughts occur to me. I am glad newbies didn't die, but that doesn't change the fact that your overreaching plan, could have killed them.
I could keep arguing, but honestly, I'm tired of fighting with you about bringing conflict, entertainment and energy to this game.
I'm pretty OK you got the yellowshard and that Ohm got to profit off of it - but you can keep being rude to me on the forums. I can take it.
@Naruj: I can certainly see where you're going with these suggestions, but lowering the optimal shrine count per sect and stretching the range at which shrines can support or oppose one another will ultimately make shrines matter even less as a conflict system than they currently do. Unless you're someone who genuinely wants to fight about shrines, that would be a system in which politely leaving each other alone becomes even more optimal - when placing enough shrines to block other sects actively reduces your own perks, why not just share 10 rooms per area with everyone?
What if you reduce the overall bonuses granted by shrines, but then double those bonuses for control of the area? We've had an order control mechanic before.
Control would come from number of shrines, size of shrines, and relics invested. The one with the most 'points' at any given time would get the bonus.
You grabbed my hand and we fell into it Like a daydream.. or a fever
Anarys, Aodan, Dreacor, Ulanna and Dimitri all turn up so Galt and Ohm skip merrily away, singing tralala falala, safe from the savages and with pockets full of shards.
@Galt, I found your diary while rummaging around in your house.
Edit: Calling me a savage... the nerve of some people.
@Naruj:That could be an interesting system but I still believe that most of the problems seen in the one present are with the aegis relic. It should be something used to protect shrines that are considered "key" due to either placement or other invested relics, not the go-to solution for entirely invalidating the system.
I can also see a few other rarely-used powers becoming problematic once aegis is no longer optimal to slot, which is why I think a hard limit on the number of each relic type each sect have in an area is the simplest solution. Suggesting seven with no other change.
@Naruj: I can certainly see where you're going with these suggestions, but lowering the optimal shrine count per sect and stretching the range at which shrines can support or oppose one another will ultimately make shrines matter even less as a conflict system than they currently do. Unless you're someone who genuinely wants to fight about shrines, that would be a system in which politely leaving each other alone becomes even more optimal - when placing enough shrines to block other sects actively reduces your own perks, why not just share 10 rooms per area with everyone?
What if you reduce the overall bonuses granted by shrines, but then double those bonuses for control of the area? We've had an order control mechanic before.
Control would come from number of shrines, size of shrines, and relics invested. The one with the most 'points' at any given time would get the bonus.
Aegis is for endcaps @Ozreas. If a "eff you" shrine is all by its lonesome with no other shrines to protect it, or in a small block, it makes sense that it would have Aegis relics. If you ever actually start investing in the system, you will bless your stars that Aegis exists.
That said, Naruj, I really, really like the Aegis suggestion. Septus' joke is funny because no one really wins an Aegis war. Also, Tripple Aegis should be a drink.
I feel like a hard cap of some kind is better than a soft one. Another sect's shrines should still potentially threaten yours just by existing - but there should be some form of hard cap, and the numbers should be sect vs. sect (so that both parties MUST build). You could also possibly do something like "shrines deeper in an area are more protected" (or in the middle if the area isn't one way in, one way out). Also possibly limit the available rooms that CAN be built in in a given area - probably to something that would only allow a grand total of 2 sects (plus a contender or two), who would always be at odds, and would always be the strongest in the game for an area like DP. Keeps people from allowing large legacy networks to persist. Also allows a brand new sect to come in if they're strong without having to compete against a nearly unlimited network from a former powerhouse (but seriously, why haven't you guys taken out Conquest? - there is no love lost there).
EDIT: another thing to be careful of depending on how the system pans out - you want the numbers to encourage defenders to try to rout an enemy team from a defile, even if they might then get routed themselves. So it's important that they can crunch the numbers and know that their sanc won't potentially allow the enemy team to simply do more damage. An example would be if you defile for 15%, I sanc for 15%, you defile for 15% (all in one window). Aegis also plays into that (and makes defenders more likely to actually defend, because even if they're outgunned, they might be able to improve their situation).
....having to compete against a nearly unlimited network from a former powerhouse (but seriously, why haven't you guys taken out Conquest? - there is no love lost there).
Because they don't have an inactive entity and we didn't want to ostracize ourselves more than we figured we would be by doing the things.
....having to compete against a nearly unlimited network from a former powerhouse (but seriously, why haven't you guys taken out Conquest? - there is no love lost there).
Because they don't have an inactive entity and we didn't want to ostracize ourselves more than we figured we would be by doing the things.
add on top of that from the pvp side, there's no one to really fight in conquest anymore
Flame sprung up fast because they had two people spending all of their time online bashing and no opposition from anyone ever, because Juran and Khizan are old friends (among other reasons). Flame also had Conquest show up to defend them from Leechwood early on, Because conquest liked fighting and was 120% willing to be mercenary muscle for Juran. I don't think it's something that would be easily repeatable.
....having to compete against a nearly unlimited network from a former powerhouse (but seriously, why haven't you guys taken out Conquest? - there is no love lost there).
Because they don't have an inactive entity and we didn't want to ostracize ourselves more than we figured we would be by doing the things.
I'd always give away an entity, even if he was sort of alright - but I am just a filthy casual who does what I'm told. Well, hrm! That said, intra-circle conflict is all the rage now what with the politics of blowing stuff up.
....having to compete against a nearly unlimited network from a former powerhouse (but seriously, why haven't you guys taken out Conquest? - there is no love lost there).
Because they don't have an inactive entity and we didn't want to ostracize ourselves more than we figured we would be by doing the things.
I'd always give away an entity, even if he was sort of alright - but I am just a filthy casual who does what I'm told. Well, hrm! That said, intra-circle conflict is all the rage now what with the politics of blowing stuff up.
Totally agree, but we just sort of picked one and the inactive entity was the deciding factor. We actually did bat that drama around but since we'd just sort of fruitlessly warred with Antioch, and demonic didn't have anyone, magick got the short end of the stick there. :S We sort of thought they'd like the conflict. Booooy howdy were we wrong.
Well, I think we rallied pretty well, considering. That said, here is how people feel about shrine wars: Septus hates them so much he wouldn't let me and Ultrix start one.
I am bad at math in public... You defile for... say 16%, I sanc for 15%, you defile for 16%. Now I am down 17% instead of 16%. I think it can actually be much worse than that depending - this example would be a minor mistake on the defenders' part. That's the type of scenario I had in mind, where it's a bad decision for me to try to sanc unless I am quite confident of being able to make it stick.
Can I just say that @Zerin missed the best joke title ever for this discussion? 'Lets talk about Sects, baby' is a way better title.
I think the biggest reason shrine warfare is not pursued is Aegis. Aegis represents an unhealthy ability to entrench. Maybe it is my complete lack of caring about the benefits given via shrines, but I would RATHER Aegis not exist in the current system. @Jules insists we might thank our lucky stars it is available to us, some time in the future, but I won't. It exists to entrench and make things static. I don't want that.
Aegis makes this system onerous and grueling. We have all admitted it. Defending it seems to mostly come from people with a clear and vested interest in keeping it around. A horse in the race, so to speak.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
I am just saying that if you build in the current system, you'll actually need it. And that a toned down version (per Juran's suggestion, or something akin to that), is probably a good answer.
I am bad at math in public... You defile for... say 16%, I sanc for 15%, you defile for 16%. Now I am down 17% instead of 16%. I think it can actually be much worse than that depending - this example would be a minor mistake on the defenders' part. That's the type of scenario I had in mind, where it's a bad decision for me to try to sanc unless I am quite confident of being able to make it stick.
On a lvl 2 aegis shrine, make that I defile for 4%.
That number would go up if you built (more math in public). But no one is saying that Aegis should stay as is. It drags things out for you (and for me) very painfully. And that is bad.
That number would go up if you built (more math in public). But no one is saying that Aegis should stay as is. It drags things out for you (and for me) very painfully. And that is bad.
Oh, in which case I am much more comfortable with aegis, I guess. :?.
Swale said: Aegis is for endcaps @Ozreas. If a "eff you" shrine is all by its lonesome with no other shrines to protect it, or in a small block, it makes sense that it would have Aegis relics. If you ever actually start investing in the system, you will bless your stars that Aegis exists.
I'm glad we can agree on the intendedapplication of aegis. What a pity that that isn't the reality.
Comments
You had us outnumbered already, yet called for Khandavan help and then later tried to justify it because some random warden died to my firewalls. Nevermind that the Khandavan help had been called before I even began using mage.
Then you stopped defiling... to switch which shrines you were defiling, not to give anyone a breather. You keep trying to claim some kind of moral highground or justification for piling on yet more people when you already had us outnumbered, yet every reason given happened after you'd called in more people. Nevertheless, it doesn't feel like this thread is the right place to argue this, as this is about the shrine system as a whole.
So, to summarise my points:
1) It's fine having a PVE timesink attached to a conflict system
2) No, that timesink shouldn't be removed just because some people don't like it
3) It's bad that a new sect can attack an older sect without having any shrines of their own, thereby sidestepping the time-sink
4) No, the system shouldn't change to make defiling easier, because it's already easier to defile than it is to raise and level up shrines
2. Khandava has been helping us on and off. We don't call - some people die and they show up and pick a side. Remember when you had Lartus? And we didn't complain? Khandava has been on and off this whole time because they WANT TO DO SOMETHING, you nut. Not because we asked them.
3. I stopped arguing that we play fair with you guys because you decided to be an idiot and endanger newbies and everyone else by not only putting firewalls in your area. No, but also an adjacent area. Just that area? NO. ANOTHER ADJACENT AREA. You don't seem to know when enough is enough. And you didn't even effectively act with those firewalls - because the only thing that kind of cheap trick is going to kill are littles, which makes you a bully.
4. We stopped defiling to give you guys a break. I was gone all day yesterday because I thought, well, we'll leave them alone. And apparently if I'm not here, no one picks targets. I logged in today and made my choice. The world is not, as you imagine, out to get you. You're just paranoid.
I mean, your entire strategy now is GRAB YELLOW SHARD, KILL NONCOM, HIDE IN HOUSE. So... really, I think we've already won.
And, not sorry, but points 2 through 4 actually make me laugh. Especially 3, because I laid firewalls along a maybe 30-room path, the one person who died to them isn't a newbie at all, he's about level 80 and the leader of a towne, and the funniest part is that you think the sole purpose of the walls was damage. True, I could have capitalised on some of it better (Like I now do!) but that still makes me laugh.
As for grab yellow shard, kill noncom, hide in house...
That's not quite how it went. It was actually: Galt kills Kamaylie, Galt removes Tywin, Galt changes statpack, Galt kills Anarys, Galt kills Anarys again, Galt kills Ulanna, Ohm kills Ulanna, yellow shard is harvested and taken far away, Galt and Ohm go back to harvest the rest of the shards, Anarys, Aodan, Dreacor, Ulanna and Dimitri all turn up so Galt and Ohm skip merrily away, singing tralala falala, safe from the savages and with pockets full of shards.
I may have made the skipping part up. The rest is true, though.
re: Arian - he's a noncom and level 80. He doesn't PK. I was worried about newbies and players like Arian, because I'm not a jerk and these thoughts occur to me. I am glad newbies didn't die, but that doesn't change the fact that your overreaching plan, could have killed them.
I could keep arguing, but honestly, I'm tired of fighting with you about bringing conflict, entertainment and energy to this game.
I'm pretty OK you got the yellowshard and that Ohm got to profit off of it - but you can keep being rude to me on the forums. I can take it.
Control would come from number of shrines, size of shrines, and relics invested. The one with the most 'points' at any given time would get the bonus.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
@Galt, I found your diary while rummaging around in your house.
Edit: Calling me a savage... the nerve of some people.
I can also see a few other rarely-used powers becoming problematic once aegis is no longer optimal to slot, which is why I think a hard limit on the number of each relic type each sect have in an area is the simplest solution. Suggesting seven with no other change.
Aegis is for endcaps @Ozreas. If a "eff you" shrine is all by its lonesome with no other shrines to protect it, or in a small block, it makes sense that it would have Aegis relics. If you ever actually start investing in the system, you will bless your stars that Aegis exists.
That said, Naruj, I really, really like the Aegis suggestion. Septus' joke is funny because no one really wins an Aegis war. Also, Tripple Aegis should be a drink.
I feel like a hard cap of some kind is better than a soft one. Another sect's shrines should still potentially threaten yours just by existing - but there should be some form of hard cap, and the numbers should be sect vs. sect (so that both parties MUST build). You could also possibly do something like "shrines deeper in an area are more protected" (or in the middle if the area isn't one way in, one way out). Also possibly limit the available rooms that CAN be built in in a given area - probably to something that would only allow a grand total of 2 sects (plus a contender or two), who would always be at odds, and would always be the strongest in the game for an area like DP. Keeps people from allowing large legacy networks to persist. Also allows a brand new sect to come in if they're strong without having to compete against a nearly unlimited network from a former powerhouse (but seriously, why haven't you guys taken out Conquest? - there is no love lost there).
EDIT: another thing to be careful of depending on how the system pans out - you want the numbers to encourage defenders to try to rout an enemy team from a defile, even if they might then get routed themselves. So it's important that they can crunch the numbers and know that their sanc won't potentially allow the enemy team to simply do more damage. An example would be if you defile for 15%, I sanc for 15%, you defile for 15% (all in one window). Aegis also plays into that (and makes defenders more likely to actually defend, because even if they're outgunned, they might be able to improve their situation).
I'd always give away an entity, even if he was sort of alright - but I am just a filthy casual who does what I'm told. Well, hrm! That said, intra-circle conflict is all the rage now what with the politics of blowing stuff up.
I think the biggest reason shrine warfare is not pursued is Aegis. Aegis represents an unhealthy ability to entrench. Maybe it is my complete lack of caring about the benefits given via shrines, but I would RATHER Aegis not exist in the current system. @Jules insists we might thank our lucky stars it is available to us, some time in the future, but I won't. It exists to entrench and make things static. I don't want that.
Aegis makes this system onerous and grueling. We have all admitted it. Defending it seems to mostly come from people with a clear and vested interest in keeping it around. A horse in the race, so to speak.
I'm glad we can agree on the intended application of aegis. What a pity that that isn't the reality.