Discussion: Commodity Production, Replacements for Duplicate/Transmute/Devastate
As I mentioned in a comment in the Horde Caravans thread, I'm opening this thread for discussion of commodity production generally, and replacements for the commodity-related rituals specifically.
Commodity production is intended to be balanced to require the towne figurine quest to be run and some outside influence beyond towne production (in the form of caravans and/or inter-city bartering if caravans aren't being run). This is not the case. The largest issue that I see is the ease of producing commodities via the commodity-based rituals, so as a first step toward fixing the issue and bringing it back in line with original intentions, we'll be removing these rituals. Unfortunately, we can't do that until we come up with some new ones!
This thread exists for two major purposes
Commodity production is intended to be balanced to require the towne figurine quest to be run and some outside influence beyond towne production (in the form of caravans and/or inter-city bartering if caravans aren't being run). This is not the case. The largest issue that I see is the ease of producing commodities via the commodity-based rituals, so as a first step toward fixing the issue and bringing it back in line with original intentions, we'll be removing these rituals. Unfortunately, we can't do that until we come up with some new ones!
This thread exists for two major purposes
- PRIMARILY To suggest and discuss replacements for Aryana Duplicate, Moradeim Transmute and Sukhder Devastate. You can discuss why you think they should remain, but it will have to be an incredibly compelling reason, because at this point I'm pretty certain I'll remove them
- BECAUSE IT'S RELATED Discussion of commodity production
- Discussion of the Trade ministry in general. I know that it isn't most people's favorite thing, but that's a discussion for another time and place
- Discussion about other rituals that exist (except as reference for balance when replacing the three mentioned above)
- Discussion of Caravans (see the other thread for that)
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Comments
1. Increase city production rates dramatically, most easily done by increasing the ratio of mat:comm production. This also boosts the desirability of caravans as a hard PvP/E objective to boost production.
2. Alter the figurine quest to be a smaller boost that can be done by every player. Where caravans would have a higher impact, a few extra materials would cover basic needs for every player if they help out their city.
With that done, I could discuss changes to the rituals, but I'll come back in another post for that.
Snowballing from this and keeping to the concept of the tier 1 abilities in these trees being relevant to commodity generation: why not tie the systems together and make these abilities caravan-specific? Capturing caravans could certainly stand to be made more tolerable. Undeveloped off-the-cuff ideas:
Aryana: Mollification: Pacifies all caravan-related mobs (including sentries) in the room for 8s. Targetting randomized afterwards.
Moradeim: Loonacy: Transform all caravan guards into ducks for 6s. Ducks do less damage and are easier to kill.
Sukhder: Isolation: 50% chance per caravan guard to be scared out of the room in an attempt to isolate the caravan merchant. They will return shortly after and target whoever used the ritual.
You could pretty easily slim down the trade requirements to 10-12 things that don't currently exist, and seed them through villages. I would then suggest circling back around as your next 'big project' and looking into ways to encourage people to use crafted items again.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
Consider introducing several 'help the towne' quests that result in some amount of raw production or finished commodities. One of the major issues with Duplicate is that it was 'free'. People were bashing anyway, and Faith was so easy to get, that commodities became a bonus reward. There is nothing necessarily wrong with allowing players to earn commodities outside the Trade system in exchange for time, you just have to gate them appropriately.
Quests would let players directly contribute, help with economy scaling, and let traders earn the things that they need to make niche stuff without spending a fortune. You can also restrict them with a cooldown, townes don't need help constantly, if you want to limit the amount of comms that come out of this method.
Like a daydream.. or a fever
Seriously. There's no actual economy with them. No trading between factions, no worries about trade routes or commerce raiding or your mines running out. No worries about crop blights or balancing your resources.
Basically the economic system is missing anything that might make it interesting. It isn't even an effective gold sink. Its nothing but bookkeeping. You go turn a crank that magically turns gold into resources.
Before you go putting all the work into revamping the system, I think it would be worthwhile to ask if the system is worth revamping.
So if we do end up with a commodity revamp. Let us have farms to harvest and grow our own food. Mining to go mine our own ores or cutting trees for tradeskills. Basically let townes create the materials a city would use(rations, stone, wood etc) and individuals to make the items required for tradeskills. The comms made by townes would then have carried to the city by a caravan. The caravan would either start when a towne is full on resources or a trade aide could start it early so that players can defend it. Creates a situation where an enemy can starve a city for resources if not done properly.
Basically, this ties the happiness of your noncoms to the skill of their fighters. Imagine if your ability to do crafting was dependent on your fighters ability to keep Septus from stealing your caravans.
I've been in a game that had a system VERY similar to what you're asking. There's two problems with that, people who like to do the monotonous commodity grind are very rare in my experience, and secondly- all it will do in the distant future is generate some REALLY smart commodity people (looking at you EveOnline) and no one will be able to go anywhere but some city that has everyone enemied just because they hold all the comm cards and are declaring themselves winnarz.
Now Imperian is different from said unmentioned game, multiclassing is possible. So everyone can have a tradesman in their back pocket to prevent the inevitable reliance on those who really like to dig in the dirt (its bad news when they all disappear for one reason or another) and raiding works much better here than it did there.
So... I have my reservations about it, but i'm not against the idea you put up.
I want to put out the idea to increase the number of commodities you can get out of the caravans if we drop the fancy ritual and aspect powers to increase commodities. They'd be a good way for some cities to supplement their normal commodity flow since each towne seems to have a particular material they're weak in as a whole. Perhaps a portion of raw materials from caravans instead of the refined commodities? I've never done the caravan raid, so I'm not sure what comes of it.
With regard to towne production and caravans, that was the original intent: townes alone would not be quite enough to meet all of the demands of city production, and caravans would be required to bridge the gap.
I think the problem here isn't production, it's pools and the artificial creation's effect on the economy. Since the smelter and terranium are basically cost-less (excepting for time) there's no way the cities can compete.
The thing with commodity production though is the cost to produce isn't representative of the actual value/use of many of the commodities at all. I was experimenting with this the other day since getting funds released for the trade ministry in Antioch happens once in a blue moon, and some of the commodities you can make seem disproportionately expensive. Coal in particular was a real sticking point, but there's a handful of others.
Since this economy has several feeds (town/city production, terranium/smelter holders, duplicate/transmute ritual, just to name the main three), I think it's important to consider the effects the change(s) proposed to one of them would have on the other. I wouldn't really personally change the terranium or smelters, and Im on the fence with the sect rituals, but wee could probably make Trade ministry less of a PITA IMO.