Here we go again, OOC rings and clans are the death of RP world.
Good god, people, Galt has bashed his head enough against this subject, why people keep rehashing it? (Yes, you are not original.)
Actually, if I had to get invited to a ring every time I logged, I would probably just forsaken rings at all, invite everyone I care to speak to one of my unused clans (if they aren't already) and keep going all the same.
See? Rings are not the problem. It is, at the core, a problem of the playerbase (if any)
Also, I like that rings by default are colored in a quite visible way. If I wanted to use a clan for the same purpose, I would have to replicate the same color. Then I will start to get confused between what was ring and what was clt.
I love seeing people mistelling to Burt messages intended to their combat clan.
Edit: BTW, you know what is 10000x easier that RING QUIT, RING INVITE if you are so desperate to avoid the blatant OOC? RTOFF/RTON.
Yeah. I understand where you're coming from. And maybe there aren't any others that would prefer it. And at this point, since I've not joined Demonic in a shard fall in a while, it's not like it actively effects me. So yeah, it's not likely to change since people don't like to change things unless they have to. I've just always felt like you should never be in a situation where you have to make an effort to accommodate OOC. It should be entirely self-contained and not ever be in a situation where it inconveniences(ringon and ringoff multiple times a day) players that want to avoid it. Could just be me, but that's how I've felt about things. As I stated, I don't participate in combat as Dicene anymore so it doesn't effect me anymore.
I honestly don't see the difference between 'web' and ring, except the hassle of inviting people or starting up a new one on every log in. Just keep it as is. As people have mentioned, no one is forcing anyone to be a member of the ring, or clan.
When it comes to RP. From my experience, the people who want more RP and tells everyone about it, are the people who don't start anything up themselves. I know tons of both new and established players that roleplay often. But if you're looking for RP opportunities that others create for you in an OOC clan or in a ring, you're probably looking at the wrong place.
On a similar note, I feel like Demonic needs to move over to using an IC Clan for shardfalls.
AM's military clan is all IC, not sure why demonics wouldn't be. Granted it is more prone to a mistell or two, but I just thought that was already standard game wide.
I think he mean that demonic should move to use Military over RT, not that Military isn't IC.
I just don't see the point, and it would actually require that I change my aliases to speak over that clan. More work that I'm willing to do for non-tangible benefits.
A bit of cross-IRE context: Achaean ring-equivalents are called 'parties'. They are generally IC, and do not persist through logging off. One doesn't generally get made unless there's something going on. It's really not a hassle at all, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about it. It's also common to jump in and start fighting first, and then get a party organised when it cools down a bit.
On the topic of rings' OOCness: I've posted a rant before on the topic, but I'll give a reprise here. I don't mind OOC channels at all. I do mind OOC channels directly influencing IC courses of action and having OOC interaction supplanting IC interaction, which will necessarily be the case when all combat chatter goes to an OOC ring. Unfortunately, the local maximum is one OOC ring per circle for coordination, and I don't see a practical way to overcome collective habit and change it.
For clarity's sake: The Military clan (used for demonic coordination, but mostly just used when the "Shardfall" announcements are made) *is* IC. The ring is a mix of IC and OOC, insomuch as targets and in-combat coordination is done through ring.
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
On the topic of rings' OOCness: I've posted a rant before on the topic, but I'll give a reprise here. I don't mind OOC channels at all. I do mind OOC channels directly influencing IC courses of action and having OOC interaction supplanting IC interaction, which will necessarily be the case when all combat chatter goes to an OOC ring. Unfortunately, the local maximum is one OOC ring per circle for coordination, and I don't see a practical way to overcome collective habit and change it.
I don't get it. If I'm using the ring to coordinate IC activities, that isn't OOC interaction supplanting IC interaction, it is effectively IC interaction.
Rings aren't inherently OOC. If they are used for such, it is different, but if at a determinate moment we are speaking about RL books, and the next one we are coordinating targets through it, I fail to see the problem. When it is needed IC, it is used for it, elsewhen (don't know if that word exists, but I like it at this moment) it can be used for something else.
I feel like there is a mixing of concepts here, like someone asking me how to store a hex number into a decimal integer. (Probably all programmers have been asked this at some point by a junior)
Rings, Parties, Webs, Clusters, Gaggles, Murders aren't the problem. The problem with this thread of whining is that it always proceeds like this
Rings are ooc, qq.
Rings are now ic.
Combat clans are born
Combat clans flirt with ic/ooc because it's combat.
COMBAT CLANS ARE OOC, qq.
piss and moan.
You can't compare Imperian to Aetolia or Achaea. For starters, their populations are much larger, their players are a whole different kind of weird (look at how the achaean transplants play imperian) and the game mechanics are vastly different (but we're working on stealing more of Aetolia's toys). Imperian has six orgs that team up and form three super orgs that participate in half assed conflict systems. Super spam invites and managing clt-offers is a really unnecessary hassle to put into the game because the not-rp-icons are pissing and moaning because they're not getting enough roleplay that they aren't looking for.
tl;dr: Cry about something that actually matters. You're barking up the wrong tree.
There's really a lot of roleplay going on in the game. You really just have to seek it out. Someone's not going to rp-walk at you in the streets of Imperian and play to your every RPI desire.
I'm going to snark about Stavenn for a bit (and it's honestly not their fault). The Hammer event gutted Stavenn's roleplay. We killed their gods. We banished their demons because they killed our gods. There really isn't a potent creative force or a consistent roleplay juggernaught that has been able to build up the storyline and/or momentum to push Stavenn out of the doldrums. Add in the fact that none of their skillsets are in the 'in crowd' right now, no one wants to play there or stick around long. Then you have the issue of weird GM's crapping on established roleplay and trying to recreate Dr. Who...shit gets a little weird.
I can't keep up with how fast this post is moving on my phone. In summary. Demonic has ring serving two purposes. OOC fun time and all of Demonic's combat coordination. It sucks for those who want one part but not the other. Not that there's anything wrong with the OOC in the ring, but it's a hassle for people to have to Ringon Ringoff all day when it could be solved by simply moving combat communication to the preexisting Military clan. As far as RP with my second topic. Yes, there is a level of RP that requires purposefully starting something. There also a level of natural RP that doesn't require anything to initiate it. The playful banter on CT being a prime example of this. In Celidon, it occurs in CT. In Stavenn, it occurs in ring. This means that to novices that aren't in the ring, or to anyone that doesn't enjoy seeing OOC all the time, Stavenn looks dead. I am convinced that has at least a little bit to do with Stavenn's lack of novice retention.
I'm not even sure what kind of kind of starting RP happens in demonic's ring.
By the way, whenever I log in Celidon, their CT is either absolutely empty (I won't even bother mentioning my guild's) or full of silly banter. Between that and demonic, stay in magick please.
Stavenn's lack of novice retention problem predates the massive demonic ring (which was spawned by the need to coordinate with Khandava) by years. If you think they are related, well, that speak volumes about you.
Stavenn was never really conducive to cheeky commentary on ct, says, tells, gt. There's a long list of people who got off being dicks to servitors. Some of them are still around. To be honest, the demonic roleplay in both Khandava and Demonic don't lend themselves to teehee, gigglefit, pillow fighting socializing that Celidon/Kinsarmar has championed. Though, Aulani tells me that Kinsarmar has eclipsed Celidon as of late (SEX IN THE STREETS!). The closest Khandava comes to it is the really light banter that gets tossed around in the Tzolkin. You should read our guild logs some time, they're amazing.
@Label I'm going to stop responding to you because the above post is a pretty good representation of every reply I get from you.
Knee jerk. Hyperbole. You're wrong because you're stupid. And you're stupid because you're wrong.
Your inability to come up with an argument that has any real substance and without resorting to middle school insults to try and belittle the person you disagree eith speaks novels about you and frankly, attitudes like yours are why I don't play Demonic anymore.
Ahkan, your post is too long for me to really address right now. A majority of your points are valid, but your hyperbolizing what I said. I didn't say "OMG RP is dead QQ." I said the lack of public communication makes novices feel like there is either nothing going on and Imperian is desolate, or makes it appear that everyone is too much in their elite click to socialize over CT. The cheesy banter you get in Magick cities is better than the over-serious snob attitude that Stavenn exudes. And as far "rp is there, you just have to dig", yes, there is serious RP to be had when you push to make things happen, but relying on that rp and not encouraging the everyday rp of CT banter(among other activities) makes the few serious moments look that much more transient and forced.
The closest Khandava comes to it is the really light banter that gets tossed around in the Tzolkin. You should read our guild logs some time, they're amazing.
2013/05/06 03:19:10 - Aleutia guildfavoured Ahkan for: Having at least a single good idea. We all have our moments.
The closest Khandava comes to it is the really light banter that gets tossed around in the Tzolkin. You should read our guild logs some time, they're amazing.
2013/05/06 03:19:10 - Aleutia guildfavoured Ahkan for: Having at least a single good idea. We all have our moments.
In case you were looking for stavenn's rp, here it is. Google the meaning of the word "nobility." Think rome. See what I mean? Rings, webs, parties aren't the problem. You are.
Dicene, why do you hate hitting enter once in a while so much?
Also, my posts tend to reflect the original post. I try to be helpful when someone asks a question, and offer my sincere opinion on subjects being discussed.
I can't help it when people are entrenched in their starting position.
Edit: Also, if you are not going to answer to me anymore, at least name me correctly!
I feel like there is a mixing of concepts here, like someone asking me how to store a hex number into a decimal integer. (Probably all programmers have been asked this at some point by a junior)
I would have never asked that. I would have asked what you are talking about.
I am not really sure what kind of CT for novices you are looking for. When I quit playing two years ago, universal demonic ring never existed. Even Stavenn ring never existed. CT looked pretty much the same as it is now, we never welcomed any chatter on it, it is reserved for serious city matters.
Another solid benefit of ring use over clan use is that they are so much more accessible by EVERYONE. Some one circle jumps and a shardfall happens, instead asking for a clan invite which someone may or may not be on to do, you ask for a ring invite. Not to mention the whole "oh I already have ten clans time pick one to drop routine."
@Ahkan says, "(insert good point). (insert unneccesary childish insult that undermines his argument and makes him look like a troll)". @Lixam Doesn't have to be mindless banter. It could be semi important, but not classified, city business. It could be occasionally asking the City how everyone is doing. It could be someone asking how the Servitors are (I have seen this on occasion). A novice's view of Imperian is very often limited to just three things. The people they see in person, CT, and GT. The more they see regular players going about their daily business, the more inviting the game is. Ithaqua was the first city/council I was ever a part of, and just seeing people asking each other how they are doing, speaking about their shops and guilds, etc was the most powerful thing that drew me into the game. And the reason I'm not spacing everything right is because I'm typing this on my phone and for some reason this forum doesn't recognize my phone's newlines. Turns out "br" tags work so that shouldn't be a problem anymore. @Delrayne While that's true, a clan with a large enough number of people with inducting privileges should almost never have that problem. And rings aren't really designed to work long term. You will never have the problem of metagamers refusing to ring quit after changing circles, and you will never have a need to exodus the entire ring into a brand new ring to get someone out.
@Lixam Doesn't have to be mindless banter. It could be semi important, but not classified, city business. It could be occasionally asking the City how everyone is doing. It could be someone asking how the Servitors are (I have seen this on occasion).
There is Servitors clan for those things. Also to me asking the city how everyone is doing is not city business, but mindless banter
@Dicene Your argument boiled down to "Stavenn doesn't rp because I don't like their rp. OOC rings/clans are the problem!" That's not trolling. It's really a statement of fact.
@Delrayne While that's true, a clan with a large enough number of people with inducting privileges should almost never have that problem. And rings aren't really designed to work long term. You will never have the problem of metagamers refusing to ring quit after changing circles, and you will never have a need to exodus the entire ring into a brand new ring to get someone out.
Unless you are Khandava(wat up Lio) leadership of org owned clans often change hands far too(that 'too' the right one Lio?) often to keep reliable clan privs going across the board. You're taking something that takes literally about three seconds to do with a ring, even if you have to do a mass exodus, and compounding it exponentially with clan commands.
How often does it change hands that the city leaders and Ministers of War cannot keep a hand full of well trusted combatants privileged appropriately? I've seen maybe 4 city leader switches since January, and that is between all circles. I can't imagine it's that difficult.
Edit: And don't take that as me trying to sound insulting, but if it's that bad, then something in the way Clans work is inheritely dumb, because a Military Clan is the epitome of what a clan system should be designed to accommodate, IMO.
It's not necessarily difficult, no. But if you have two ways of doing something, and one is slower, more complicated, and more prone to error you would never opt to use it over the one that is faster, easier, and more error proof.
Don't get me wrong, I feel for you on the OOC/IC nature of rings. I really do. But there is simply no way in hell you'll ever be able to prove that clans are more efficient than rings, which is basically what this whole debate boils down to. The only selling point you have is that you can boot someone out if you want, but it's generally faster even to pull a ring exodus than it is to find someone with the privs to discharge someone.
Comments
Good god, people, Galt has bashed his head enough against this subject, why people keep rehashing it? (Yes, you are not original.)
Actually, if I had to get invited to a ring every time I logged, I would probably just forsaken rings at all, invite everyone I care to speak to one of my unused clans (if they aren't already) and keep going all the same.
See? Rings are not the problem. It is, at the core, a problem of the playerbase (if any)
Also, I like that rings by default are colored in a quite visible way. If I wanted to use a clan for the same purpose, I would have to replicate the same color. Then I will start to get confused between what was ring and what was clt.
I love seeing people mistelling to Burt messages intended to their combat clan.
Edit: BTW, you know what is 10000x easier that RING QUIT, RING INVITE if you are so desperate to avoid the blatant OOC? RTOFF/RTON.
DEEEEEEEEEP. MUFASA.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
When it comes to RP. From my experience, the people who want more RP and tells everyone about it, are the people who don't start anything up themselves. I know tons of both new and established players that roleplay often. But if you're looking for RP opportunities that others create for you in an OOC clan or in a ring, you're probably looking at the wrong place.
I just don't see the point, and it would actually require that I change my aliases to speak over that clan. More work that I'm willing to do for non-tangible benefits.
On the topic of rings' OOCness: I've posted a rant before on the topic, but I'll give a reprise here. I don't mind OOC channels at all. I do mind OOC channels directly influencing IC courses of action and having OOC interaction supplanting IC interaction, which will necessarily be the case when all combat chatter goes to an OOC ring. Unfortunately, the local maximum is one OOC ring per circle for coordination, and I don't see a practical way to overcome collective habit and change it.
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Rings aren't inherently OOC. If they are used for such, it is different, but if at a determinate moment we are speaking about RL books, and the next one we are coordinating targets through it, I fail to see the problem. When it is needed IC, it is used for it, elsewhen (don't know if that word exists, but I like it at this moment) it can be used for something else.
I feel like there is a mixing of concepts here, like someone asking me how to store a hex number into a decimal integer. (Probably all programmers have been asked this at some point by a junior)
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
You can't compare Imperian to Aetolia or Achaea. For starters, their populations are much larger, their players are a whole different kind of weird (look at how the achaean transplants play imperian) and the game mechanics are vastly different (but we're working on stealing more of Aetolia's toys). Imperian has six orgs that team up and form three super orgs that participate in half assed conflict systems. Super spam invites and managing clt-offers is a really unnecessary hassle to put into the game because the not-rp-icons are pissing and moaning because they're not getting enough roleplay that they aren't looking for.
By the way, whenever I log in Celidon, their CT is either absolutely empty (I won't even bother mentioning my guild's) or full of silly banter. Between that and demonic, stay in magick please.
Stavenn's lack of novice retention problem predates the massive demonic ring (which was spawned by the need to coordinate with Khandava) by years. If you think they are related, well, that speak volumes about you.
(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧
Also, my posts tend to reflect the original post. I try to be helpful when someone asks a question, and offer my sincere opinion on subjects being discussed.
I can't help it when people are entrenched in their starting position.
Edit: Also, if you are not going to answer to me anymore, at least name me correctly!
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
@Lixam Doesn't have to be mindless banter. It could be semi important, but not classified, city business. It could be occasionally asking the City how everyone is doing. It could be someone asking how the Servitors are (I have seen this on occasion). A novice's view of Imperian is very often limited to just three things. The people they see in person, CT, and GT. The more they see regular players going about their daily business, the more inviting the game is. Ithaqua was the first city/council I was ever a part of, and just seeing people asking each other how they are doing, speaking about their shops and guilds, etc was the most powerful thing that drew me into the game. And the reason I'm not spacing everything right is because I'm typing this on my phone and for some reason this forum doesn't recognize my phone's newlines. Turns out "br" tags work so that shouldn't be a problem anymore.
@Delrayne While that's true, a clan with a large enough number of people with inducting privileges should almost never have that problem. And rings aren't really designed to work long term. You will never have the problem of metagamers refusing to ring quit after changing circles, and you will never have a need to exodus the entire ring into a brand new ring to get someone out.
Edit: And don't take that as me trying to sound insulting, but if it's that bad, then something in the way Clans work is inheritely dumb, because a Military Clan is the epitome of what a clan system should be designed to accommodate, IMO.
Don't get me wrong, I feel for you on the OOC/IC nature of rings. I really do. But there is simply no way in hell you'll ever be able to prove that clans are more efficient than rings, which is basically what this whole debate boils down to. The only selling point you have is that you can boot someone out if you want, but it's generally faster even to pull a ring exodus than it is to find someone with the privs to discharge someone.