Improving Imperian Combat

Ailish

I still think you're overstating the need for a mechanical solution.  Based on my limited experience, someone like Khizan is all too happy to not kill me while I'm taking care of the important, yet thankless duty of making a shardfall Curran-free.

Jules

Well, many very artied people in our circle will tend to leave an Ailish or an Alesei alone period a lot of times, because Aleseis are clearly at the shardfalls with a murder mindset, but go "squish", so a Septus or a Khizan (or even a Jules) tend to feel kind of bleh about smooshing them just for the hell of it.  So, you (or someone like you) will often be left alone (to the point that we might not come to the shardfall at all if you are there) - unless we think we can pull in an Eldreth, or a Risca, etc... In fact, a Jules often goes to a shardfall specifically to be the overartied crippled deer, so that the (left) sharks will hopefully smell blood and then there will be a fight.    

And the smaller shardfalls, where there are at most one or two people from each side (and there absolutely can't be a Septus ), and which have no reasonable chance of becoming big ones... yes, it is easier to sort of give one another a bit of a nod to kill people off, and... it's just not going much of anywhere anyway.  In fact, those are the ones where hey, we might very well leave most of the shards a lot of times and people can autoharvest to their heart's content a bit later.  

Ailish

I actually really wish that people would stop affording me this type of courtesy.

I mean, yeah, if it's Septus, I'll probably just run away, but everyone else in AM, I'd be all too happy to have a go at.

Jules

I will always try to kill someone if I think it will start a fight.  And I say "many very artied people", but, truth be told, at present, that probably really means Septus, Khizan, and me - and I am not worth the time for any serious 1 v.1 hero in any case (and don't really try to 1 v.1 except as a sort of learning thing in service of improving my group combat skills, or out of sheer boredom, or because "it kind of worked out that way").  Claudius is both incredibly artied and a professional coder, but he hasn't been out and about all that much yet (although he certainly could be).  But anyway, Dreacor will certainly fight anyone, anytime, and is in that "skilled, but not very artied" category, and I think Xeron probably is too.  

And yes, there is a reason some people are often largely left alone at shardfalls.  And really, most of us usually leave everyone alone unless we somehow actually feel like we need shards (as in, actually need some, not "need to collect insane amount of shards because reasons so I can tick off achievement box thing"), or see that enough of the right people are around and have hopes of starting a fight.  

Iniar

1. Can there please be a benefit for Champions fighting off the advances of Apprentice Champions? I know the benefit is in getting 2 x EXP (currently), but it's an easy 'eh, I'll protect my bashing bonus and just avoid a fight' kind of decision; I think some benefit from fighting off aggressive Apprentice Champions would be fun.

@Jeremy

2. Can we please give Bard an alternate route of attack against reckless immune professions? Right now, the rest of the Bard Voice tree is locked behind Innyo+ (recklessness), so reckless immunity negates much of Bardic offense. I suppose one could create a Myried line to try and compensate, but that really is a crap shoot with the second aff off nuarinyu being uncontrolled -and- losing out on 1 mandrake block (recklessness) with no access to impatience (Innyo+).

@Garryn

3. Can we please have active sketches show what inks are on them?

@Garryn

Khizan

"You concentrate on the pithakhan rune on an ornately wrought tablet, and its searing image suddenly flares on your skin."

Is there any way to get the self-harm messages to phrase things like

"You concentrate on the pithakhan rune on an ornately wrought tablet, and its searing image suddenly flares on Khizan's skin."

instead?

It is frustrating trying to test things like this when the self-harm messages don't match the pattern of the actual message you get in combat.

Jules

I was trying to think of ways to make it easier to groom new combat commanders, something which our guys try to do very consciously whenever they get the chance, but which is actually pretty hard to do.  We have probably at least two guys I can think of who could be "groomed" into decent combat commanders.  So the leaders seem to be aware that you want to groom more leaders.  You could certainly say it's a problem on the follower end, and that's pretty true, but there's probably only so much to be done about that.  

The only thing I can think of are some opportunities that essentially have a PK rank cutoff that rules out the absolute top guys in our game once in awhile, because PK rank seems to be a more reliable indicator of prowess somewhere at the very top end.  So that Septus, or Eldreth, or Khizan, and so forth can coach a guy before he leads his team in, or between skirmishes, but they can't actually lead those engagements (which means both sides don't have to worry about the other side sending in the big guns, either by choice or through the sort of accidental escalation that can happen).  So they get to be involved as coaches, and they obviously still lead nearly all major engagements (such as obelisk fights against a highly skilled, well led, and well outfitted adversary), but they get the chance (which they actually seem to support) to groom some more competent leadership, so that when they aren't around, there are still people who can make something happen.  Again, I just say this because it seems like something people are pretty aware of, but which is hard to make happen in practice the way things stand.  Because if potential leader guy leads team in and fails miserably a time or two, and Septus is around, the temptation to get him to lead everyone in is overwhelming, and if Septus is not around, there probably isn't anyone who feels up to leading a team in.

EDIT:  it also allows those guys to lend their arties out to that guy if he isn't heavily artied.  

Lartus

I wish Demonic had a monk class. Or maybe they do and I just never noticed. We need depraved monks.

Iniar

@Garryn

Can we get a little balance knock on Sludge?

At the moment I can just spam NW, and it doesn't matter if Sludge fires, because I can walk right through it.

Aakrin calls upon his earthen power and sticky sludge covers you, preventing you from moving away.

637[100] 668[99] eb db 0 0 22.69 0 0 0    -----   -----  [FC:0]  +++++

637[100] 669[100] eb db 0 0 22.69 0 0 0   -----   -----  [FC:0]  +++++

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

You walk northwest.

Sondgroth's Supplies.

A marble statue depicting a solemn gathering around a gravestone stands here. An obsidian shrine to 

the Sect of the Dream Realm has been built here. There are 2 elegant white letters here. Lying flat 

on the ground is a key-shaped sigil. There are 3 monolith sigils here. A silver couatl is coiled 

here. A snow lynx crouches and awaits her prey. An elite Runeguard Knight is manning a cannon here. 

He has forty-two cannon balls. Sniffling softly to himself is a malnourished beggar child. You see a 

sign here instructing you that WARES is the command to see what is for sale. 

You see exits leading southeast, northwest, and down (closed door).

A malnourished beggar child sniffles quietly as he pokes the ground with his foot.

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

The sticky sludge clings to you, preventing you from moving anywhere.

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

The sticky sludge clings to you, preventing you from moving anywhere.

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

The sticky sludge clings to you, preventing you from moving anywhere.

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

You walk northwest.

Eternal Alchemist.

A rune shaped like a butterfly has been sketched into the ground here. There are 3 monolith sigils 

here. A plain grey tunic has been left here. Plain grey trousers have been left here. An obsidian 

skull-shaped charm lies on the ground here. An onyx skull-shaped charm lies on the ground here. A 

necromatic bone skull-shaped charm lies on the ground here. An elite Runeguard Knight is manning a 

cannon here. He has thirty-eight cannon balls. There are 2 elite Sidhe Skywatchers here. There are 4 

elite Mages of Kinsarmar here. There are 12 elite Runeguard Knights here. You see a sign here 

instructing you that WARES is the command to see what is for sale. 

You see exits leading southeast, northwest, and down (closed door).

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

The sticky sludge clings to you, preventing you from moving anywhere.

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

You walk northwest.

Artisan's Delights.

Blue and green swirled marble representing the ocean is the highlight of this grandiose fountain of 

playing dolphins. Lying flat on the ground is a key-shaped sigil. There are 3 monolith sigils here. 

A wooden goblet is sitting on the ground. An elite Runeguard Knight is manning a cannon here. He has 

forty cannon balls. You see a sign here instructing you that WARES is the command to see what is for 

sale. 

You see exits leading southeast, northwest, and down (closed door).

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

You cannot move that fast, slow down!

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

You cannot move that fast, slow down!

You tell Ser Aakrin Krax'ai, "Attempting NW move."

You cannot move that fast, slow down!

637[100] 669[100] eb db 0 0 22.69 0 0 0   -----   -----  [FC:0]  +++++

Garryn

Yeah, that was a bug. Fixed.

Fensrun

H:500 M:527 <eb> autocuring assume numbness
You assume that you have the 'numbness' affliction.
H:500 M:527 <eb>
Autocuring: eat maidenhair
You take 1 maidenhair leaf, bringing the total to 1360.
You quickly eat a maidenhair leaf.
H:500 M:527 <eb>

Can autocuring please say something when it clears an assumed affliction? Right now, if I want to keep track of autocuring's state client-side, I have to trigger each curative, check that it cures nothing, and then clear the flags myself, unless it actually cured the affliction, or I was shadowplanted, or it was an illusion, or...

That's not a tremendous amount of work (compared to building a full-fledged curing system with production-grade anti-illusion), but I've got this far without needing to write anything approaching a herb-eat trigger, let alone a robust one, and that has been a really refreshing experience, coming from autocuring-impoverished games; I would like that run to continue

Iniar

I would love a test dummy

Jules

I feel like people still worry about PK XP more than would be optimal sometimes.  As Septus puts it "people don't like to see numbers go down".  I think PK XP is in a really good place mechanically.  It seems to give people a "not utterly worthless" but not "huge" benefit if used well, and is mainly a bragging right, especially towards the upper end (like say, rank 20 and up, probably).  When you lose PK XP you are not losing "real" XP.  You are not being effectively told "haha, go bash for hours, noob".  But people still get cautious I think.  

The only thing I can think of is to maybe make it work ever so slightly differently.  For example, Septus, who is ranked number 1, could have an absolutely tiny bit less health (seriously, the tiniest possible increment) to commit than Ahkan, who is ranked number 2.  In terms of effectiveness, it would be absolutely meaningless, but it would mean that "numbers go down" (very slightly) when you go UP in rank.  It would also make top rankings even more of a bragging right (while not changing how all of this works in any meaningful way other than addressing how humans react to the idea of "numbers go down").  

For the rest of us in the "doldrums" (which people would have to debate cutoffs for) you could lump us all into one big... lump, or several lumps, all with the same useful but non-spectacular commit pool.  This is just me sort of throwing ideas around, but I do think people still do odd/overly cautious things because of PK XP, and I don't mean people who won't get out there at all, because I assume something else is holding those people back, and they may honestly never come on board, but there is still something about how people are viewing PK XP that isn't quite right for getting everyone to just get out there and see what they can do on a given day.  

EDIT:  looking in the top 50 names or so, I see some people who will charge into almost any fight - but I also see people who are clearly just very, very cautious about which fights they engage in.  

Ifreann

Remove all pk rules. We want chaos  -.-

Wysrias

2016/01/08 10:05:52 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:08:53 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:08:53 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:12:01 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:12:11 - Kilikousu has been slain by a Guardswoman of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:12:37 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:12:49 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:13:22 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:13:26 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:13:38 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:13:50 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:13:50 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:14:02 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:14:02 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:18:05 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:26:59 - Lyneah has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:29:58 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:29:58 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:32:10 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:38:02 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:38:06 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:38:30 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:38:42 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:39:06 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:39:54 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:40:18 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:40:30 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:40:42 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:41:32 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:42:32 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:42:44 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:43:20 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:43:32 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:43:44 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:43:57 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:44:21 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:47:07 - Arakis has been slain by a Guardswoman of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:47:09 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:49:14 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:49:14 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:49:14 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:49:14 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:49:16 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:56:19 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:56:32 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:56:34 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:56:44 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:56:47 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 10:56:54 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:56:56 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 10:56:58 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:00:56 - Kryss has been slain by a Guardswoman of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:00:58 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:01:08 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:01:11 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Sidhe Skywatcher.
2016/01/08 11:01:11 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:17:23 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:19:49 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:19:51 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:22:19 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:22:21 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:27:33 - Arakis has been slain by an elite Sidhe Skywatcher.
2016/01/08 11:27:35 - Arakis has been slain by a Guardswoman of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:34:29 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:34:33 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:35:59 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:35:59 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:39:36 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:39:38 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:49:58 - Zera has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 11:51:09 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:51:09 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:56:50 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:56:55 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:59:29 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 11:59:31 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:12:47 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:12:47 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:15:49 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:15:49 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:18:59 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:19:02 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:19:02 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:19:02 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:19:28 - Iniar has been slain by misadventure.
2016/01/08 12:22:55 - Zera has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:24:31 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:24:44 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:24:51 - Zera has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:24:56 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:25:01 - Iniar has been slain by misadventure.
2016/01/08 12:25:06 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:27:31 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:27:33 - Iniar has been slain by a Guardswoman of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:30:37 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:30:58 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:31:14 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:32:48 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:32:51 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:35:18 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:36:43 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:36:43 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:36:44 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:41:54 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:42:55 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:45:20 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:47:25 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:48:10 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:50:28 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:55:38 - Zera has been slain by a Guardswoman of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 12:56:11 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 12:56:12 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 13:03:28 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:03:28 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:03:28 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:07:14 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 13:07:16 - Zera has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 13:07:16 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:13:00 - Zera has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:13:01 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Mage of Kinsarmar.
2016/01/08 13:13:03 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:13:54 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:13:56 - Iniar has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:20:38 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:20:38 - Kryss has been slain by an elite Runeguard Knight.
2016/01/08 13:38:39 - Sroath has been slain by an elite ferine lycaean knight.
2016/01/08 13:45:21 - Kilikousu has been slain by an elite ferine lycaean knight.

@Garryn @Jeremy

So, people like to raid, for hours on end, for whatever reason. This drains a lot of resources from a city, in terms of siege, hiring guards, etc etc, and can't really be combated off-peak for obvious reasons. One of the big reasons this is possible is because there is no real opportunity cost for doing so - the experience drain is negligible, especially versus the financial harm you can do to a city.

If we're going to keep guard bashing around, I propose that we make it have a real opportunity cost, to prevent someone from just throwing themselves at guards over and over, and require them to be more thoughtful and tactical in their efforts. Right now the experience lost is negligible, as 2-3 mob kills can negate it; clearing a boss can undo all of the experience lost during the raid. My suggestion:

Double the experience loss for each guard death within 1 IC day (one hour). Each subsequent death to guards would reset this timer. This means a sustained raid becomes increasingly more expensive if the attackers are careless - and otherwise, if the cost gets too high, they can back off for some time and allow the counter to reset. This gives underrepresented orgs a chance to find defenders - poor Kye was stuck defending Kinsarmar alone off-peak with no real recourse otherwise.

Alternative idea: Guards become healthier and hit harder for each guard death in a time frame, and respond to a larger radius of other guards being attacked. This is somewhat like Aetolia's system I believe - a few guards here and there won't mean much, but incite anger among the guard force and stuff gets tricky.

Septus

I agree with the stated issue above, I don't like the solutions.

I think there are a few problems with current raiding:

1. Any remotely competent person can end a raid with a guard rush, making people only really raid to cause damages during the twilight hour. This is either a very good thing or a very bad thing - I think we need to definitively know the admin stance on this to say which. Either raiding is a thing that should spur conflict or it is a thing that shouldn't. The middle ground kind of sucks for all parties.

2. It is very expensive to restock guards, both in terms of guard units and siege/ammunition. This is both expensive in hard resources (gold/comms) and soft ones (time, which is most important).

If raiding should be a source of conflict, my personal preference would be to make guards much less the end all (either few in number or simply capped per room), but to make guards automatically respawn (perhaps with a yearly upkeep to keep some form of gold sink).

Currently the emphasis is on attacking city infrastructure; this is frustrating for defenders and the attackers don't actually gain anything concrete. It also means that the time you attack is irrelevant, so people end up just doing it when they're least likely to meat resistance if they 100% feel they want to achieve their goal (sup, obelisks).

On the flip side, increasing city defences just narrows the group of people who will be willing/able to raid. I personally think this is a shame, and attacks the wrong part of the issue. A determined enough player will still be able to dismantle a siege line (I am 100% positive I could dismantle any siege line in the game currently with maybe 5 deaths tops). If someone wants to attack a city and it is possible, they're going to find a way to do it.

I think the primary danger with raids is how frequent they can become. The archers/telepaths are a way to mitigate this, but they don't actually make raiding a more engaging experience for either side. It just turns into "let's wait them out and hope they don't do too much damage".

The only thing that immediately springs to mind is to make city guards respawn etc, but give an alternative thing to attack. Completely random suggestion, but maybe you can attack the city comm stores in some way, but only steal up to x per rl day. There's the obvious problem that still arises (making it so its ideal to attack when people are actually around), but that's about the extent that I've thought about this issue.

Personally, I think raiding is a good facet of the game because it is an entirely unscheduled event. Shardfalls/caravans/etc are awesome, but its nice to have some conflict systems that are more dynamic in that respect. I'm aware this is a very divided opinion though, so take with a grain of salt.

Wysrias

If it's meant to be a system to attack a city's finances (this is the current state), it needs to have a similar cost for the aggressor. If it's not in experience, it has to be in something other than just time, because some people have way too much time on their hands. Mechanics like the chargebomb work for this, because it requires preparation as well as investment of resources that could otherwise be used for something else (chargebombs don't entirely fit into this scenario, but that's the base idea).

I think the alternative objective is a really neat idea, though I'm not sure what exactly that would be.

Iniar

One of the items mentioned in this thread suggest that admin are looking at expanding the role of townes in terms of generating conflict, particularly mentioning raiding. I think if they do do so, then certainly cities and councils could and maybe should be made entirely off-limits by permanent free telepaths; migrating all hard/soft targets to townes could be definitive.

Then again, it was nice having Tikal wander into Antioch.

Septus

To expand, free archers/telepaths wouldn't change anything. I can tank them so a lot of other people can too. It doesn't matter how difficult you make something, if it is doable someone will do it.

Jules

I wish Templar had some ground between "I'm pretty useful in groups but I really do just hit them with an axe to the face" and "god tier longsword Templar" (Septus).  The big thing is, Outrider is way more fun for someone at my skill level to play, but lacks block.  And if your team doesn't have the ability to double block at least one exit... your team could be eating totems, or guards, very very soon, and then you will probably all die... unless you can just rush and get rid of the totems, sure.  I have no idea what to do about this, or whether anything can be done about it, or should be done.  I am just expressing how it's affecting me right now.  The bottom line is if I even get a whiff that demonic might have an inkling of texing, I make sure I am in Templar.  

So basically, two issues that it would be sort of miraculous if it were possible to fix/improve them:

1)  Templar has two modes - extraordinarily linear (but effective) role in group combat, and Septus mode, and I am not sure there is much in between.  It IS good that the class provides that kind of room to grow to a very high skill level, while being playable for the rest of us, because my understanding is that some classes don't have that at all.  They might be quite powerful and easy to use - to a point, and then they simply cap out, or, they pretty much exist ONLY in god mode, and very possibly only function as 1 v. 1 hero classes that are largely useless in groups.  But if Templar had a "progression" step, that would be nice.  I feel like with Templar, I am looking at an abyss, or simply a wall in some cases, if I were to try to do something even slightly less "strych strych flare" with it.  For example, I was going to try to use a different combo if our target in groups touched tree, thinking "well, if he had to use tree, I should try to really give him something to cry about", but no, I was told to keep using strych strych (because the best option actually is still strych strych).

2)  Block feels so absolutely critical right now that I will be staying Templar nearly all of the time if there is any possibility of a fight.  Now, I actually have a scroll, but for some reason, I think my gmcp grabber thing is derping, so I really do have to log out and log back in to switch.  Once I tighten all that up, I can probably switch incredibly quickly, but how many people can do that... People are certainly not forcing me to stay in Templar, and will tell me "play what you want" every chance they get, but I feel like the current situation definitely pushes me to stay Templar.  And not many people have the options to switch that I do... of course.  

Dreacor

Jules, I think you're overthinking the whole thing against vortexing and blocking and all what can and could be done. 

There was this announcement that the pure physical damage combat is about to get some depth into it. And if your team is pushing pure damage instead afflictions and tricks, then you just reave with strychnine. That's pretty much about the damage and such. 

About the block. It's nice to have double block, sure, but it's not 100% necessary, to have a chance to win against vortexing team. And as you mentioned about people telling "play what you want", you definitely should do it. If you prefer outrider over templar, play outrider. I think it's pretty simple. Also: If you notice that the enemy team has totems, vortexing and such and you realize that you can't win, so be it. Can't win every fight.

Eldreth

I don't even really see where you are going here, except to reinforce the sentiment that block is increasingly important in the current meta (which it is). I can assure you that wytches, summoners, and diabolists would love block too. Spreading damage, affliction, range, and crowd control responsibilities across a circle's professions, which works better in theory than practice, is one of the things that has always added a layer of fun to the group combat setting. 

Jules

Well, maybe we should try fighting some fights against tex specifically without blocks, and see if it can be done well... I am skeptical.  But I am certainly willing to try it.  

Jules

I get it, Eldreth, which is why I know Outrider would never get block, for example... But it is just feeling so crucial I don't dare play anything but the class that ensures we can block.  And I wouldn't mind staying in Templar if it weren't pretty limited/boring at my level.  

Dreacor

Jules said:

Well, maybe we should try fighting some fights against tex specifically without blocks, and see if it can be done well... I am skeptical.  But I am certainly willing to try it.  

Been there, done that. I've won against those and lost. Vortex and totem combination vs team which doesn't have a block is not equal to automatic win for vortexing team.

Eldreth

Jules said:

I get it, Eldreth, which is why I know Outrider would never get block, for example... But it is just feeling so crucial I don't dare play anything but the class that ensures we can block.  And I wouldn't mind staying in Templar if it weren't pretty limited/boring at my level.  

If you want to play the team game, sometimes you have to play the part that will best complement the hand your side plays. Every single one of us goes through that. I don't particularly enjoy sitting in a wytch role a lot of the time lately, but it is both highly effective against AM tactics and it allows people like Wys and Yeti to be more artsy with alternative prof choices while still giving us a chance.

Jules

I am definitely willing to play what the team needs, but half my team is telling me "eh, block", and the other half actually does seem to consider it fairly crucial, so I am not really sure.  I keep getting conflicting messages based on what I am experiencing and what people say.  What I am experiencing/seeing tells me oh my god we really do need block (although as noted, I am up for trying the other way, to see if it can be done, for one), but half of my side's more seasoned people say "meh, block ain't a big deal" while I get the impression that Septus quietly considers it a fairly big deal - and you seem to consider it a fairly big deal.  I wish we had a clear stance on it, I guess, although I do understand that things are often situational.    

EDIT:  it is definitely a big deal with less experienced people, who will simply not walk back, even if being texed several rooms out.  It's also a big deal when team leader is moving a lot, but hasn't committed to a rush yet - "oops, got texed, where is he now that I walked back, oh look, I just walked in on a room of 3 demonic, ded".  It's really easy for team members to get picked off before the big melee that way.  Valid tactic for the enemy for sure, but seems like something you'd want to counter!  But, I guess I can see how you could live without it if you have a small, very experienced team under the right circumstances, probably?

Septus

My completely unbiased opinion is that you should block because otherwise I am the only blocker and am the guy they tex into the totem.

Iniar

@Jules

Playing a class you don't enjoy, to try and win, is part of having to wear your big boy pants... all of us do it at some point or rather against every circle. Recognising that classes have weaknesses and strengths is part of learning the greater part of the game outside of your preferred class, and hopefully makes you a smarter player.

Also, just force Khizan to play Templar.

Edit: Double block is a big deal.

Lartus

triple block is an even bigger deal.