Syphon is the only thing ouroboros provides passively, besides ablaze to a target (useless). If rites weren't so plentiful in useful abilities, I could see your argument, but no one else can balance knock and hold a person down effectively with one rite for 5+ consecutive times in a row, nor passively regenerate, have access to an instant transport, passive unblockable damage, and et cetera while just sitting there.
I wasn't making an argument for healing rite to be anything other than what it is. I was just pointing out that cleric doesn't have a massive array of passive affliction healing. Also that skills exist (for passive affliction healing) that are better.
I have been knocked off balance and held in place by gravehands 5+ times many a time. But you're right when a devotion user is sitting in their rites they get several passive abilities; however, there are a lot of passive abilities in this game (diab is no stranger to them) though they are just never brought up when talking about devotion and or priest.
I wasn't making an argument for healing rite to be anything other than what it is. I was just pointing out that cleric doesn't have a massive array of passive affliction healing. Also that skills exist (for passive affliction healing) that are better.
I have been knocked off balance and held in place by gravehands 5+ times many a time. But you're right when a devotion user is sitting in their rites they get several passive abilities; however, there are a lot of passive abilities in this game (diab is no stranger to them) though they are just never brought up when talking about devotion and or priest.
Cleric has a ton of healing both passive and active. Compare to any class it wins.
(Edit: as a comparison, the closest class to priest healing is probably bard. The caveat there is the class is significantly less tanky, has cool downs on active heals, and has one less active heal. Also, it's passives don't tick on all allies, nor does it have silly things like blood sworn or redemption.)
Also, complaining about gravehands when you have piety is just silly.
Bliss is probably the best aff healing ability in the game, particularly on priest (since you're not hugely impacted by stopping to put it up - the momentum isn't really enormously time critical). You'll be set back slightly, but it won't reset your progress by any means. This was also the real issue with seraph care being so fast, I'd say. If other classes stopped to might/etc, they were probably going to lose progress, but old seraph care was easily fast enough to hit/care/hit and not really be set back any kanai. The change should fix that, which is good.
Altering Bliss to heal afflictions every tick instead of randomly was such a bad change.
What the HG classleads fail to mention is how Pilgrimage is (at least on paper) tactically far superior. A none-balance consuming reinforcement strategy on the hot-side is hands down better than other available methods for two reasons, but I'm sure I'd be swamped immediately with (largely inaccurate) counter arguments.
I wasn't making an argument for healing rite to be anything other than what it is. I was just pointing out that cleric doesn't have a massive array of passive affliction healing. Also that skills exist (for passive affliction healing) that are better.
I have been knocked off balance and held in place by gravehands 5+ times many a time. But you're right when a devotion user is sitting in their rites they get several passive abilities; however, there are a lot of passive abilities in this game (diab is no stranger to them) though they are just never brought up when talking about devotion and or priest.
Cleric has a ton of healing both passive and active. Compare to any class it wins.
(Edit: as a comparison, the closest class to priest healing is probably bard. The caveat there is the class is significantly less tanky, has cool downs on active heals, and has one less active heal. Also, it's passives don't tick on all allies, nor does it have silly things like blood sworn or redemption.)
Also, complaining about gravehands when you have piety is just silly.
I was careful to say "passive abilities". Also I wasn't complaining about GH he said no other class can hold down with one skill, so I was pointing out a similar ability.
I don't think you know what you were arguing, honestly. Could call it inexperience? There's nothing wrong with cleric.
That's probably because I'm not really arguing anything. I'll give you the fact you have spent more time on imperian than I have, and from what I have read through the forums you occasionally have some good things to say. So how about throwing down knowledge and facts instead of insults so maybe the rest of the community can improve.
Just for the record I don't think there is a problem with clerics. Originally I was just pointing out care was compared to fitness and they aren't the same. Septus gave a good, valid logical reason why the change to care balance was requested. It's fine. Everything is awesome. Heck I don't even play cleric 90% of the time.
It's really frustrating to be out fighting someplace in the world and find out that you can't use traps because it's still got old traps from the last time Kryss was an assassin and that attempting to disarm those traps can fail multiple times in a row and you have to repeat that for every exit and blah blah blah.
It's especially frustrating because there are areas that are still carpeted with traps that date back to the time when rope cost something like 5g.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
14:17:06.195 606[100] 632[94] eb db 0 0 7.15 0 [a: 1][m: 0] [[\\\\\\\\\\]] 14:17:06.197 Mana Lost: 45 14:17:06.198 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 40%. 14:17:06.200 You take a deep breath and focus on concentrating the warmth from your surroundings into Naharl's body.
14:17:06.201 [[ I N C I N E R A T E ]] 14:17:06.202 Naharl swoons for a moment then rises again, flushed but strong. <-- [Vitality] 14:17:06.202 Naharl swoons for a moment then rises again, flushed but strong. <-- [Vitality] 14:17:06.204 Equilibrium Taken: 3.17s
14:17:06.792 Naharl appears invigorated as his wounds heal before your eyes.
14:17:07.736 Naharl rebounding down. 14:17:07.738 Naharl jabs a Wolf's Fang glaive towards Bathan but lurches forward suddenly as if he was expecting resistance.
14:17:08.480 [[ I N C I N E R A T E ]] 14:17:08.481 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 25%.
14:17:09.397 Naharl qjabs Bathan's left leg. 14:17:09.403 Bathan numbness. 14:17:09.404 Naharl qjabs Bathan's left leg.
14:17:09.794 Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears. 14:17:09.796 You have lost the anti-weapon field defence. 14:17:09.800 You bring your focus upon Naharl's nerves and start channeling heat towards them. 14:17:09.811 Naharl burning nerves. 14:17:09.811 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 45%. 14:17:09.812 Equilibrium Taken: 1.90s
14:17:09.820 Naharl sipped.
14:17:10.123 You focus upon your pact and a terrifying visage of Jy'Barrak Golgotha, Demon Lord appears briefly in front of Naharl, 14:17:10.123 wreathed in flames. 14:17:10.125 The demon lets out a terrible roar and Naharl staggers under the relentless force of its mental assault.
14:17:10.827 [[ I N C I N E R A T E ]] 14:17:10.828 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 30%.
14:17:11.850 With a rapid movement of your hands, you inject a small bolt of energy into the aura around Naharl. 14:17:11.857 Naharl impatience [summoner]. 14:17:11.858 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 40%. 14:17:11.859 Equilibrium Taken: 2.32s
14:17:11.863 Naharl ate toadstool.
14:17:12.697 [[ I N C I N E R A T E ]] 14:17:12.698 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 25%.
14:17:13.602 The Mark of Danaeus on Naharl's body flares briefly.
14:17:13.619 Naharl jabs a Wolf's Fang glaive towards Bathan but lurches forward suddenly as if he was expecting resistance.
14:17:14.201 You bring your focus upon Naharl's nerves and start channeling heat towards them. 14:17:14.213 Naharl burning nerves. 14:17:14.213 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 45%. 14:17:14.214 Equilibrium Taken: 1.90s
14:17:14.626 Naharl sipped.
14:17:14.963 Naharl rebounding down. 14:17:14.965 Naharl qjabs Bathan's left leg. 14:17:14.966 [ LEFT LEG 33% ] 14:17:14.967 Naharl qjabs Bathan's left leg. 14:17:14.972 Bathan asleep.
14:17:14.988 [[ I N C I N E R A T E ]] 14:17:14.989 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 30%.
14:17:17.066 With a rapid movement of your hands, you inject a small bolt of energy into the aura around Naharl. 14:17:17.074 Naharl impatience [summoner]. 14:17:17.075 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 40%. 14:17:17.076 Equilibrium Taken: 2.32s
14:17:17.082 Naharl qjabs Bathan's left leg. 14:17:17.083 Naharl qjabs Bathan's left leg. 14:17:17.084 [ LEFT LEG 66% ] 0 hits to break! 14:17:17.088 Bathan asleep.
14:17:17.321 [[ I N C I N E R A T E ]] 14:17:17.322 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 25%. 14:17:17.324 You are not yet able to unleash another demon.
14:17:18.190 Naharl ate toadstool.
14:17:19.536 [QUEUE]: g body. 14:17:19.537 You pick up the corpse of Ultrix. 14:17:19.542 Naharl impatience relapse [summoner].
14:17:19.547 You bring your focus upon Naharl's nerves and start channeling heat towards them. 14:17:19.557 Naharl burning nerves. 14:17:19.557 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 45%. 14:17:19.559 Equilibrium Taken: 1.90s
14:17:19.567 Naharl sipped.
14:17:19.832 [[ I N C I N E R A T E ]] 14:17:19.832 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 30%.
14:17:21.166 Naharl jabs a Wolf's Fang glaive towards Bathan, piercing through and shattering his aura of rebounding.
14:17:21.578 Naharl epilepsy [summoner]. 14:17:21.579 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 40%. 14:17:21.581 Equilibrium Taken: 2.32s
14:17:21.879 606[100] 629[94] -b db 0 0 7.35 0 [a: 1][m: 0] [[\\\\\\\\\\]]invoke quicken Naharl |unleash palpatar at Naharl | 14:17:22.204 Rebounding. 14:17:22.206 You have gained the anti-weapon field defence.
14:17:22.208 [[ I N C I N E R A T E ]] 14:17:22.209 The aura around Naharl is now tainted to 25%. 14:17:22.210 You have slain Naharl. 14:17:22.210 Cleared all variables on Naharl. 14:17:22.220 You gain 86,447 experience. You need 74,116,128 more for level 109.
Before/During the beta can we re-evaluate previous classleads on redemption? We've had enough time to fool around with it this cycle and it's honestly still a problem. Edmund accidentally hit on it when he mentioned that AM is inundated with devotion users, primarily templars. The combination of burst-damage/tank/undying is just too good (and too easy) to pass up. The way it works now is that you're sitting on a free starburst every two minutes, which translates into a free starburst at -every- team fight that you will engage in if you die. Other skills that behave in a similar manner (Woodheart) are sitting on 1 hour cooldowns, meaning you will only see one woodheart per defiler per caravan/shard fall cycle.
On top of that, you're placing a free starburst on top of two classes that are already two of the tankiest classes in the game. Both are rolling in splintmail/fieldplate, surcoats, with a wide variety of elemental resists to boot. To add icing to the cake they're picking up free mana/health regeneration every round that's supplemented by burst healing that checks in at about 10% per round. If that's not enough for you, they have prayers which can overlap giving an entire team +con, health regen.
Tank + regen + active + redemption is just too good in the revive/team derp metagame.
Possible solutions: -Move redemption to a 1hr or 1 day cooldown (can move woodheart to one day if you'd like)
-Move woodheart to a 2 minute cooldown to mimic redemption
-Have redemption instantly drop your devotion to 0 so you're not a super duper 100% combat bot like you were before you died terribly.
-Just delete redemption (because devotion doesn't need anything else) and make cleansing the trans ability.
-Late idea: revive mechanics (redemption, starburst, scorched, etc) incur death maluses for reporting to combat too early.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Before/During the beta can we re-evaluate previous classleads on redemption? We've had enough time to fool around with it this cycle and it's honestly still a problem. Edmund accidentally hit on it when he mentioned that AM is inundated with devotion users, primarily templars. The combination of burst-damage/tank/undying is just too good (and too easy) to pass up. The way it works now is that you're sitting on a free starburst every two minutes, which translates into a free starburst at -every- team fight that you will engage in if you die. Other skills that behave in a similar manner (Woodheart) are sitting on 1 hour cooldowns, meaning you will only see one woodheart per defiler per caravan/shard fall cycle.
On top of that, you're placing a free starburst on top of two classes that are already two of the tankiest classes in the game. Both are rolling in splintmail/fieldplate, surcoats, with a wide variety of elemental resists to boot. To add icing to the cake they're picking up free mana/health regeneration every round that's supplemented by burst healing that checks in at about 10% per round. If that's not enough for you, they have prayers which can overlap giving an entire team +con, health regen.
Tank + regen + active + redemption is just too good in the revive/team derp metagame.
Possible solutions: -Move redemption to a 1hr or 1 day cooldown (can move woodheart to one day if you'd like)
-Move woodheart to a 2 minute cooldown to mimic redemption
-Have redemption instantly drop your devotion to 0 so you're not a super duper 100% combat bot like you were before you died terribly.
-Just delete redemption (because devotion doesn't need anything else) and make cleansing the trans ability.
-Late idea: revive mechanics (redemption, starburst, scorched, etc) incur death maluses for reporting to combat too early.
How would: Tank + regen + active + starburst be different? I really don't know, after the changes to starburst I guess I assumed they were pretty similar in how they worked.
When redemption hits it practically does drop you to 0% devotion. With rites out I have 1600 devotion. Without any artifacts a person with devotion needs and cost 1500 devotion for redemption to flare, so you end up with 100 devotion. If they are flaring or using cleansing, or using any other ability that uses devotion chances are redemption won't hit. So by trying to ensure that they will get to hit redemption you have effectively removed those two skills, and other less notables ones in devotion from a fight.
Then counter argument to this is that several of us are running around with beads, which changes the numbers. However, it doesn't allow for re-applying redemption during a fight, and even if someone managed to it cost 1000 devotion, so they would have to wait for devotion to regen before it actually did them any good. And really, if they can do all that they probably never needed redemption in the first place because you are taking forever to kill them. Additionally I feel like it is a bad idea to start trying to balance skills around artifacts. Shouldn't this go the other way? If not you are making the artifact you are balancing around almost mandatory for the class. We all spend good money on our text gear so we can have an advantage, and they should provide an advantage (albeit not a game breaking one). On that note it seems silly to throw surcoats when talking about the tankiness of a profession. Surcoats provide extra mitigation, and from what I remember it scales with how much mitigation you are already getting from armor. So someone wearing 85/85 full plate is already getting less out of their surcoat than someone wearing armor that provides less (though if I am wrong here I would like to know).
To contrast some of this, you can reink a starburst during the fight, and as long as you can survive 30s you will get to hit it again. It cost you no balance (redemption is 10.4 with diadem), and it doesn't cost you 75% of a profession resource needed to fuel an entire skillset. Also, you are able to reink starburst in Dis, allowing you to get back to the fight quicker after you die (granted with a malus). Applying redemption is an aggressive action so it cannot be reapplied until you are back from Dis, and again it takes 10.4 seconds to reapply (if you have the devotion).
Other than losing falcon and seraph, and screwing up someones pk stats could someone please explain to me what redemption is giving devotion users that they couldn't get from starburst?
side note: I would say we are getting a double shot at coming back from the dead, and on paper I guess it is possible, but in reality it just doesn't happen in these big group fights. The other day @Jules was trying it and started asking over the ring what was going on because she kept going to Dis with redemption still up. In todays group combat 30s is a long time and chances are if you are being focused you're not long for this world (even with hands, I've tried).
I had only just started using Starburst, and I won't ever use it again so long as I have redemption. I felt like I died so much faster after I hit Starburst too (compared to Redemption) but that probably really is my imagination. I was so confused having both up, and not really understanding that the time I decided to start using starburst also happened to be when a change had apparently been put in. I guess the other nice thing about redemption is it doesn't cost your sect if you're in one (I asked if it did). I think you're always going to have a lot of templars, by the way, so long as people are honest with themselves about their coding and combat ability. I am specifically avoiding the many classes that are above my ability in pretty much every way (whereas templar can be tailored to players like me, or to players like Septus).
And yeah, boy does hitting redemption take you out of the fight for a bit. I guess that's an argument against using it at all. Maybe I really should be using starburst in a lot of situations. Then again, since squishier and less experienced people are a prime target, I like to (try to) leave for a bit sometimes anyway. .
I had only just started using Starburst, and I won't ever use it again so long as I have redemption. I felt like I died so much faster after I hit Starburst too (compared to Redemption) but that probably really is my imagination.
It is your imagination.
Excepting the meaningless thing about sect belief, starburst is better than redemption in every single way and it's optimal to be using it over redemption in PvP.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
-In combat inking a starburst is a myth. No one's ever done it. Why? (risk of death is to great and you'd be out gold)
-Using a starburst requires sacrificing a tattoo slot and costs ink. (Some of you don't bash and likely have very little gold)
-Devotion (which is one of the best support skillsets) gives you a free starburst every 2m free of charge making you (edmund) into a 500h meat shield with high resistances that gives bad afflictions and 90 burst damage. Most of you would not be able to 'revive' without redemption. Demonic -knows- revive is the new metagame and they are forced between choosing x,y,z tattoos and the ability to revive and keep on swinging. Same with magick.
-Other skills (woodheart) have longer cooldowns (the point) whilst redemption has 2 (which is technically 0 applied to team combat)
-Historically speaking, many Achaean pkers (including Khizan) were 100% for removing soulcage (redemption) from Deathknight, despite the fact it was significantly less powerful than cleric and templar both. Even in Achaeas overpowered wild west, we realized it was an over the top skill. When Khizan was a summoner he was again against redemption as an active ability. This is all based on a redemption that stripped your defenses and sent you into combat with absolute no defense immediately after dying. The only real change here is redemption is more powerful and allows for you to retain defenses and rites (unless I misunderstood septus) through death.
^Khizan has spent 10 years making 'soulcage' (redemption) is dumb arguments. It's weird it's suddenly ok now that he can use it.
I'm more than happy to let you keep it but I think it should bear with it some inherent cost that matters (not devotion), have an obscene cooldown (woodheart) or bear with it some penalty for your second chance at life (damage malus, no defs, whatever). It's called a risk v reward and right now that isn't there.
-In combat inking a starburst is a myth. No one's ever done it. Why? (risk of death is to great and you'd be out gold)
-Using a starburst requires sacrificing a tattoo slot and costs ink. (Some of you don't bash and likely have very little gold)
-Devotion (which is one of the best support skillsets) gives you a free starburst every 2m free of charge making you (edmund) into a 500h meat shield with high resistances that gives bad afflictions and 90 burst damage. Most of you would not be able to 'revive' without redemption. Demonic -knows- revive is the new metagame and they are forced between choosing x,y,z tattoos and the ability to revive and keep on swinging. Same with magick.
-Other skills (woodheart) have longer cooldowns (the point) whilst redemption has 2 (which is technically 0 applied to team combat)
-Historically speaking, many Achaean pkers (including Khizan) were 100% for removing soulcage (redemption) from Deathknight, despite the fact it was significantly less powerful than cleric and templar both. Even in Achaeas overpowered wild west, we realized it was an over the top skill. When Khizan was a summoner he was again against redemption as an active ability. This is all based on a redemption that stripped your defenses and sent you into combat with absolute no defense immediately after dying. The only real change here is redemption is more powerful and allows for you to retain defenses and rites (unless I misunderstood septus) through death.
^Khizan has spent 10 years making 'soulcage' (redemption) is dumb arguments. It's weird it's suddenly ok now that he can use it.
I'm more than happy to let you keep it but I think it should bear with it some inherent cost that matters (not devotion), have an obscene cooldown (woodheart) or bear with it some penalty for your second chance at life (damage malus, no defs, whatever). It's called a risk v reward and right now that isn't there.
Am I understanding you correctly to say it is a cost/gold thing? If so, redemption required some trinket that cost 950 gold (the cost of one ink of each color) to make or buy then everything would be awesome?
edit: Just for fun I threw on a starburst. I'm not sure if it is suppose to work this way or not, but after I touched it and it faded saying it granted me a new life upon death. Then I was able to ink a new tattoo on that slot. If this is the intended behavior (if not let me know and I will bug it) then it is a cost thing that forces you to sacrifice a slot for starburst, not a game mechanic one. Right?
This meatshield will probably be using starburst from now on (and not putting redemption up at all). Just to sum up and clarify, starburst allows me to retain rites and defenses, costs me no devotion whatsoever, but I don't retain my falcon, it does cost my sect faith, and it does register as a "PK" kill. Is this right?
Also, what is that skill that makes you take 25% more damage if you come back early? Once I'm down, I *really* don't want to come back until that's gone, which does keep me away for a long time (which is no doubt the intent). Should I be coming back anyway?
-Devotion (which is one of the best support skillsets) gives you a free starburst every 2m free of charge [remainder truncated intentionally].
On this point, a clarification: It's 1500 devo to put up redemption (roughly 2 minutes), and another 1500 to fire (another 2 minutes), which really amounts to a 4 minute wait on the whole cycle. Contrast this with a 30-second cooldown on starburst, which can be inked while in Dis or even in the same room where you starbursted. Most fights don't last more than a few minutes, so the 4-minute cycle really means you're not going to be using it multiple times in a single fight.
You and I would do that without blinking, boar or not (and I have more tattoo slots than I actually know how to use effectively anyway), but someone not rolling in credits might not. They really might care about having to pay for the inks to keep doing that over and over.
But, and this is a whole new question, does someone who needs to worry about the cost of re-inking have any kind of real survivability in most group combat anyway? It kind of sucks if they don't, not saying it's right, but even if they're quite good, can someone who isn't a fairly artied out hope to survive the sort of damage you take in groups when you're the target? If you're not artied, it seems like you'd just smoosh immediately, just to pure damage, no matter how good you are, and if you *are* artied, well, it sounds you're going to choose starburst unless redemption is legitimately better. I suppose I could still put up both (although that is not my intent from what I'm reading here), but it seems unlikely that I'd normally get an opportunity to benefit from both. Even if I did... my devotion is usually very close to zero when I hit redemption. Maybe someone like Septus (or Khizan if he weren't wyrming it these days) might be able to pull off a "double dip" in the way Ahkan seems to be worried about, but I'd be surprised if most of us "player NPCs" would, and most of the complaints here seem to be about us "meatshields". Anyway, from the sound of it, the person who would probably benefit from redemption the most actually might be the player who isn't artied/doesn't have a lot of credits.
Before common CD, Septus would have Vitality/redemption/combust/starburst all queued up iirc. That was just awful. . Well for anyone fighting him anyway.
Unartifacted 100+ athletic runeguard here(well, I have the 5% bracelet from bashing). I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm usually not an early target because I take a long time to kill. It doesn't take artifacts to last a while, it takes properly using all the tanking methods you have available. Commit, Shard Skills, Crystal Tattoo, Hands, making full use of Defend, and getting out of the room as quickly/effectively as you can. Most people are really bad at that.
That out of the way, I'm also failing to see what makes redemption so overly powerful. In a knight class with 12 tattoo slots, I can keep all the important things up tatted, and still have room for tattoos for other classes(hammer and shield), and an owl. Those could all be starbursts. Meaning that even if you couldn't manage to reink for some reason, you still have that rez available 30s after your last death. I see no other real advantage to it apart from keeping falcon(which isn't a huge bonus, especially not in team combat) and negating the XP and rank consequences of pk(which I think is dumb, but has nothing to do about real balance). The gold cost on starburst isn't exactly extreme. 20 minutes in Riksha is enough to pay for 4-8 starbursts, so that shouldn't really be a problem for anyone.
Ahkan isn't concerned about double dipping. Ahkan is concerned that the whole 'kit' of devotion sets up a generic templar/cleric to maintain high burst damage (or high burst affs), broad spectrum resistances, passive regen, passive healing, active regen, active healing, all on top of getting a rebirth mechanic at no cost. The arguments presented here (and previously) state that sacrifices are made somewhere to maintain redemption. In practice, you're not seeing that.
The starburst is actually Edmunds straw man meant to misdirect. Starburst is the best comparison because it's the exact same effect. Woodheart is the most analogous mechanism in the game. Woodheart has a 1hr hard cooldown and a gauranteed death. Redemption has a 2 minute and does not have a guaranteed death. Why?
You have to figure out which end of the problem you should address. Do you want to sacrifice tanking? Sacrifice regen? Sacrifice affs/damage? Or do you want to just trim that fat and remove redemption? (Because according to Edmund's post you don't need it. Which begs the question why does he argue so hard to keep it?)
**The whole argument is a minor part of a larger argument of "The old way of balancing Imperian was afflicions -> not tanky high damage -> not tanky, middle of road = tanky." Cleric and Templar were middle of the road and arguably bad, which justified them having access to high amounts of tank and second lives. That's not the case anymore. Clerics and Templar both check in high on the dps charts and templar can often top the affs chart. They're still the tankiest classes in the game and have access to rebirth mechanics. Isn't it about time we kick the 'glass cannon' balancing mechanism to the curb? Or how bout we start applying it universally instead have having a different paradigm per circle.
The starburst is actually Edmunds straw man meant to misdirect. Starburst is the best comparison because it's the exact same effect. Woodheart is the most analogous mechanism in the game. Woodheart has a 1hr hard cooldown and a gauranteed death. Redemption has a 2 minute and does not have a guaranteed death. Why?
Oh! Oh! I know this one! It's because Woodheart and Redemption are not related to each other in any way!
Woodheart is a proactive ability that prevents death which can be used in combination with starburst and Redemption is a modified starburst effect that shares a cooldown with starburst and they are entirely different skills that are used in entirely different ways.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
At this point, unless you care about someone else's sect essence there is no 'hard' advantage to using redemption vs. starburst in PvP. If you are still entering into PvP without a starburst analog in the Year of Our Lord Twenty-Fifteen, it truly is your own fault that you're losing.
Comments
(Edit: as a comparison, the closest class to priest healing is probably bard. The caveat there is the class is significantly less tanky, has cool downs on active heals, and has one less active heal. Also, it's passives don't tick on all allies, nor does it have silly things like blood sworn or redemption.)
Also, complaining about gravehands when you have piety is just silly.
I was careful to say "passive abilities". Also I wasn't complaining about GH he said no other class can hold down with one skill, so I was pointing out a similar ability.
That's probably because I'm not really arguing anything. I'll give you the fact you have spent more time on imperian than I have, and from what I have read through the forums you occasionally have some good things to say. So how about throwing down knowledge and facts instead of insults so maybe the rest of the community can improve. Just for the record I don't think there is a problem with clerics. Originally I was just pointing out care was compared to fitness and they aren't the same. Septus gave a good, valid logical reason why the change to care balance was requested. It's fine. Everything is awesome. Heck I don't even play cleric 90% of the time.
Can traps maybe have a decay timer or something?
It's really frustrating to be out fighting someplace in the world and find out that you can't use traps because it's still got old traps from the last time Kryss was an assassin and that attempting to disarm those traps can fail multiple times in a row and you have to repeat that for every exit and blah blah blah.
It's especially frustrating because there are areas that are still carpeted with traps that date back to the time when rope cost something like 5g.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Possible solutions:
-Move redemption to a 1hr or 1 day cooldown (can move woodheart to one day if you'd like)
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
Redemption makes starburst near mandatory. If I do not use starburst, my relative effective damage is halved against any devotion user.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
That out of the way, I'm also failing to see what makes redemption so overly powerful. In a knight class with 12 tattoo slots, I can keep all the important things up tatted, and still have room for tattoos for other classes(hammer and shield), and an owl. Those could all be starbursts. Meaning that even if you couldn't manage to reink for some reason, you still have that rez available 30s after your last death. I see no other real advantage to it apart from keeping falcon(which isn't a huge bonus, especially not in team combat) and negating the XP and rank consequences of pk(which I think is dumb, but has nothing to do about real balance). The gold cost on starburst isn't exactly extreme. 20 minutes in Riksha is enough to pay for 4-8 starbursts, so that shouldn't really be a problem for anyone.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."