The point of an exercise like that is for a new person to understand the difference between:-
locking and afflicting
infirmities and afflicting
locking and infirmities
(locking, infirmities, affliction) and a valid killchain
a valid killchain and killing someone
because a diabolist doesn't doesn't do all those things -at the same time- (looking at every other class ever), especially 1 on 1.
e: Also, @Wysrias, I was locked real early on, and I was showing them that instead of blindly mashing away, they could swap to any kill-method at that stage (which they picked up on straight away) Now comes the part of explaining to them why :this won't work against anyone wielding a claymore - and what to do about it:
The point of an exercise like that is for a new person to understand the difference between:-
locking and afflicting
infirmities and afflicting
locking and infirmities
(locking, infirmities, affliction) and a valid killchain
a valid killchain and killing someone
because a diabolist doesn't doesn't do all those things -at the same time- (looking at every other class ever), especially 1 on 1.
e: Also, @Wysrias, I was locked real early on, and I was showing them that instead of blindly mashing away, they could swap to any kill-method at that stage (which they picked up on straight away) Now comes the part of explaining to them why :this won't work against anyone wielding a claymore - and what to do about it:
hallucinating. [hallucinations] impatient. [impatience] feeling like a true hero. [heroism] poisoned by a wisp.[poisonwisp] sensitive to pain. [sensitivity] blind. [blind] an insomniac. [insomnia] cursed by Nature.[naturecurse]
Your wounds cause you to bleed 35 health.
Iniar secures his previously wielded item and instantly draws a nacreous Scepter of Protection into his left hand. Iniar swings a nacreous Scepter of Protection and it flares with sudden power. The image of Ferriter blurs, fading to a green nebula as he vanishes to the ether. He is followed by a fat wobbling puffin and a runic golem. Alvetta is suddenly dragged away into a distance. The image of Baasche, riding a black and white mare, blurs, fading to a green nebula as he vanishes to the ether. He is followed by a mighty earth golem, an animated apple root, an animated birch root, and an animated hawthorn root. Aislygn is suddenly dragged away into a distance. The image of Ihsan blurs, fading to a green nebula as he vanishes to the ether. He is followed by a ravenous hound. The image of Cassius blurs, fading to a green nebula as he vanishes to the ether. Your surroundings suddenly blur and a great force drags you away into a distance.
My sceptres have been so good value for money. The only one time I really used it stupidly was out of spite, when 4 AMers decide to add another 2 against our 3. Sorry @Ahkan, @Wysrias. My favorite moment was when Menoch dopple empressed me into an enemy room, I shouted HADOUKEN and swung my sceptre. So many giggles.
00:17:10.886 443[92] 575[100] eb db 1 0 39.41 0 [A: 0][M: 0] 00:17:11.190 Kryss quickly summons a poisonous wisp and with a commanding gesture, sends it flying towards you. 00:17:11.192 autocuring toadstool 0 00:17:11.192 Wisp Poison. 00:17:11.205 aff+ wisp poison. 00:17:11.205 autocuring toadstool 0 00:17:11.205 Wisp Poison. 00:17:11.206 You have lost the anti-weapon field defence. 00:17:11.206 Kryss razes your aura of rebounding with a sharpened quarterstaff. 00:17:11.207 443[92] 575[100] eb db 1 0 39.41 0 [A: 0][M: 0]
00:17:27.269 137[28] 499[86] eb db 3 0 39.41 0 [A: 0][M: 0] 00:17:27.284 Kryss quickly summons a metallic wisp and with a commanding gesture, sends it flying towards you. 00:17:27.286 Psychic wisp. 00:17:27.286 -70 [14.6%], 94 (25.5%) 00:17:27.287 Kryss turns towards the swirling tornado. 00:17:27.287 The raging tornado begins spinning faster and faster, until it suddenly implodes into itself with an ear-splitting sound. 00:17:27.288 You choke violently as the air is forced painfully out of your lungs. 00:17:27.288 You have lost the insomnia defence. 00:17:27.289 You have been slain by Kryss. 00:17:27.289 Cleared all variables on Iniar. 00:17:27.289 rt Died to Kryss. 00:17:27.304 Your personal Rift will hold no more blue ink. 00:17:27.305 Your personal Rift will hold no more purple ink. 00:17:27.306 Your personal Rift will hold no more yellow ink. 00:17:27.308 -105 [21.9%], 141 (25.5%)
I'm not going to derail another thread with my complaints here (too much). I just want everyone to read that log and see how many times balance knocks and slow balance appear. Considering this is every fight, against a class that already nukes my mana in two ways, disables my mana regen, disables my toadstool regen, halves my only active method of defending myself (demon sap). I could buy every single mana arti and be just as screwed, because my regeneration is outright negated and sipping mana is a death sentence with their damage pressure and persistent bleed; robes would help, but probably just delay the inevitable. I can't run, I can't really fight back (I lose 33% of my balance any round they'd like, forget a lock), it's just not playable - no matter the investment.
I'm not going to derail another thread with my complaints here (too much). I just want everyone to read that log and see how many times balance knocks and slow balance appear. Considering this is every fight, against a class that already nukes my mana in two ways, disables my mana regen, disables my toadstool regen, halves my only active method of defending myself (demon sap). I could buy every single mana arti and be just as screwed, because my regeneration is outright negated and sipping mana is a death sentence with their damage pressure and persistent bleed; robes would help, but probably just delay the inevitable. I can't run, I can't really fight back (I lose 33% of my balance any round they'd like, forget a lock), it's just not playable - no matter the investment.
It looks like him applying slow balance isn't doing anything. He's only taking .8s off, so he's essentially giving up damage to throw you off a second. While I can understand that's annoying for affliction classes, isn't that what he's supposed to do? Granted I've only been playing again for maybe a month after all these years, but I was under the impression slow balance only took effect when you lost balance, and looking over that log seems to justify it.
I also need to figure out what I'm doing wrong, because when Ihsan came for me he was at around 95% mana when I killed him, and I'm pretty certain I was using all the things Baasche does.
I'm willing to be enlightened, but as someone who is just a tri-trans player with no combat artifacts, I don't see the issues fighting people that I've heard complaints about. I'm not as good as Baasche, admittedly, so maybe I just need to find that win button.
Everything in druid is a win button. If you're seriously having trouble, a vast majority of the people in magick have absolutely no idea what is going on at any given time in regards to combat. You'll likely be better served asking for advice OOCly from the rest of the community. Most of the 'best' druids didn't stay magick long.
I'm not going to derail another thread with my complaints here (too much). I just want everyone to read that log and see how many times balance knocks and slow balance appear. Considering this is every fight, against a class that already nukes my mana in two ways, disables my mana regen, disables my toadstool regen, halves my only active method of defending myself (demon sap). I could buy every single mana arti and be just as screwed, because my regeneration is outright negated and sipping mana is a death sentence with their damage pressure and persistent bleed; robes would help, but probably just delay the inevitable. I can't run, I can't really fight back (I lose 33% of my balance any round they'd like, forget a lock), it's just not playable - no matter the investment.
It looks like him applying slow balance isn't doing anything. He's only taking .8s off, so he's essentially giving up damage to throw you off a second. While I can understand that's annoying for affliction classes, isn't that what he's supposed to do? Granted I've only been playing again for maybe a month after all these years, but I was under the impression slow balance only took effect when you lost balance, and looking over that log seems to justify it.
I also need to figure out what I'm doing wrong, because when Ihsan came for me he was at around 95% mana when I killed him, and I'm pretty certain I was using all the things Baasche does.
I'm willing to be enlightened, but as someone who is just a tri-trans player with no combat artifacts, I don't see the issues fighting people that I've heard complaints about. I'm not as good as Baasche, admittedly, so maybe I just need to find that win button.
Taking 0.8s off of my 2.1s attack, at any time the user wants, is a -big deal-. Diabolist does not have secondary resources like imbues - my offense relies on being able to deliver afflictions quickly to stack them or push towards a lock. Every route diabolist uses revolves around afflictions; heck, half of demonic's classes solely push afflictions. Being able to slow this offense with no conditions on the user's end is frankly absurd. My only other option, sap/leech, is halved by the same effect that punishes my primary offense (doubling the drain of evileye is HUGE in a drawn out fight, especially when I have no way of regenerating mana other than commit).
The issue is that druid has no opportunity cost for anything - "What is he supposed to do?" is kind of an amusing question because right now, druid has a dozen options that are all amazing. Slow balance and balance knocks, constant bleed and mana drains, comboable writhes, heal denies - all usable any round with no penalty. There's no build-up and there's no realistic counterplay, because Druid also has the ability to completely lock someone in a room with choke, trip, rubble effects, root strips that share none of the drawbacks of dopplegangers (where is my root exorcise and root pacify?). If I were to even make headway on my offensive progression, I then have to consider that druid has fitness, might, prismatic AND vitality - all ways to counter momentum I have built. I do not have any of these options myself.
I hate to frame the complaint this way, but I'm pretty darned artifacted both offensively and defensively, and I have trouble dealing with druids who have virtually no investment other than tri-trans. It could just be that I'm objectively bad at this game, but I doubt that everyone fighting druids is simply just not getting it. It's gotten to the point where my interest in combat has taken a huge plunge, because these fights feel like an insurmountable uphill battle.
A balance knock, especially combined with root choke and slow balance is very very nasty. Your target can kiss their momentum goodbye after just one or two of these which is extremely frustrating. We did away with things like this on other classes for a reason.
The other big issue is that druid only gains strength as the fight goes on, the never really have to use their gathered resources (imbue, air) for anything because it's far more efficient just to use poisonwisps and build air to max while your empowerments carry you up to max imbue. Now you're sitting at full damage and attacking really quick and have expended nothing to do so! Empower should cost you imbue. All wisps should cost air. Imbue and air should have other means of generation. You should be limited to choosing between an empowerment/wisp/naturebinding attack. Other classes have to make strategic choices about such things. I mean, imagine a Summoner who after a few rounds can then be instant intensifying every attack; it would be just plain unfair. And that, in many ways, is exactly what druid is right now.
Taking 0.8s off of my 2.1s attack, at any time the user wants, is a -big deal-. Diabolist does not have secondary resources like imbues - my offense relies on being able to deliver afflictions quickly to stack them or push towards a lock. Every route diabolist uses revolves around afflictions; heck, half of demonic's classes solely push afflictions. Being able to slow this offense with no conditions on the user's end is frankly absurd. My only other option, sap/leech, is halved by the same effect that punishes my primary offense (doubling the drain of evileye is HUGE in a drawn out fight, especially when I have no way of regenerating mana other than commit).
Admittedly, my knowledge of classes are six or so years old. Are Druids the only ones, now, who with a command can send you off balance? I seem to recall every circle having at least one class that did that, if not others. There could be an argument about this knocking off of balance shouldn't itself be balance-free, so we could look at sending it the way of other skills I guess nobody uses?
The issue is that druid has no opportunity cost for anything - "What is he supposed to do?" is kind of an amusing question because right now, druid has a dozen options that are all amazing.
I didn't ask "What is he supposed to do" but "Isn't that what he's supposed to do?" I remember having an easy time against Stavenn's affliction classes when I played a Ranger because of throwing them off balance or slowing them down. I just know the dynamic has changed a lot (notice, I have so many "I remembers", I'm not sure I can even argue, but I will). I also remember getting super-anger about parry and being relatively unable to do anything about it and, talking to
Slow balance and balance knocks, constant bleed and mana drains, comboable writhes, heal denies - all usable any round with no penalty. There's no build-up and there's no realistic counterplay, because Druid also has the ability to completely lock someone in a room with choke, trip, rubble effects, root strips that share none of the drawbacks of dopplegangers (where is my root exorcise and root pacify?). If I were to even make headway on my offensive progression, I then have to consider that druid has fitness, might, prismatic AND vitality - all ways to counter momentum I have built. I do not have any of these options myself.
I hate to frame the complaint this way, but I'm pretty darned artifacted both offensively and defensively, and I have trouble dealing with druids who have virtually no investment other than tri-trans. It could just be that I'm objectively bad at this game, but I doubt that everyone fighting druids is simply just not getting it. It's gotten to the point where my interest in combat has taken a huge plunge, because these fights feel like an insurmountable uphill battle.
I'm going to ignore this part. Not because I think it's dumb, or that there's no valid argument, it's just not based on anything I was arguing about. My main argument was that the complaints were about balance loss along with slow balance being applied, and I wanted to point out that it doesn't matter; the slow balance affliction only hurts balance times taken after it's applied, so if anything I need to log in and tell Baasche he's terrible for still using it even after I told him about it in the first place.
But I'm terrible and don't really know what I'm doing anyway, so there's that.
You're right that it only affects balance costs after the affliction is delivered. So if the affliction persists into the next round (plausible given how often it's being used), it will apply to the balance knock, the writhe from the off-balance comboable choke, and the balance cost of using any offensive ability.
The issue with the off balance knock is that it does not cost the Druid any real momentum. It is not costing imbue, it is not slowing their offense in any meaningful way (remember, you cannot regenerate mana against a druid).
You can ignore the rest of the argument if you'd like, but the point is that this is all occurring simultaneously. In the context of having that many defensive counters and lockdowns (and let's not forget mass earthsong, the portable reincarnation of the much maligned grove eject), being able to slow someone's offense by 33% unstoppably is completely over the top.
You can't attempt to invalidate someone's arguments because you're ill prepared to defend them. Please stop.
You can't hedge your bets and say "blah blah this is balanced...but my knowledge of the game is six years old."
If you had played for the last six years, you would know that Garryn 'tried' to remove all balance knock off + slow balance combinations. Conspiracy theorists will note that magick still had 2. In essence, this is exactly what Wysrias is talking about. I know you think you're making a huge point, by saying "it's only x number of seconds" is up there with "You're only 20% slower!" He plays momentum classes. It's a built in stall tactic that is paired with a 20% health hit. Erliovan, pls.
Step out of your golden goose bias and actually read the log for what it is. I'll give you some background. Baasche is awful. Always has been. Baasche is able to passively inflict a ton of mana damage at little to no cost. Baasche's entire offense was a stall tactic (which played into ^^^^^) Baasche's 'stall' offense did more damage than most damage classes (Note: Baasche isn't min-maxed because he switches classes every week).
I remember having an easy time against Stavenn's affliction classes when I played a Ranger because of throwing them off balance or slowing them down.
What game did you play? Clearly not this one. Probably going to be a jerk here, but if you believe this was possible than your six year old opinions were likely incorrect just like your present day remarks are.
You're right that it only affects balance costs after the affliction is delivered. So if the affliction persists into the next round (plausible given how often it's being used), it will apply to the balance knock, the writhe from the off-balance comboable choke, and the balance cost of using any offensive ability.
The issue with the off balance knock is that it does not cost the Druid any real momentum. It is not costing imbue, it is not slowing their offense in any meaningful way (remember, you cannot regenerate mana against a druid).
You can ignore the rest of the argument if you'd like, but the point is that this is all occurring simultaneously. In the context of having that many defensive counters and lockdowns (and let's not forget mass earthsong, the portable reincarnation of the much maligned grove eject), being able to slow someone's offense by 33% unstoppably is completely over the top.
I see an issue with noctec/choke interaction given both can be delivered on the same combo (root choke writhe shouldn't take balance imo), but a lvl 1 balance evocation/root combo is a bit under 3 seconds. Druids have poor affliction pressure. The only reason noctec would cause issues on subsequent rounds is because someone is chain-smoking linseed and has no balance, and/or they are attacking at some crazy 2+ aff every 2 second speed. But these are the exact reasons why someone would use noctec in the first place.
“We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
You could make the argument that when you're dropping 30-45% of someone's health per round + a choke/entangle + a healing deny + an added spell effect inside one of affliction passive/health damage passive/mana cost passive.......
You're right that it only affects balance costs after the affliction is delivered. So if the affliction persists into the next round (plausible given how often it's being used), it will apply to the balance knock, the writhe from the off-balance comboable choke, and the balance cost of using any offensive ability.
The issue with the off balance knock is that it does not cost the Druid any real momentum. It is not costing imbue, it is not slowing their offense in any meaningful way (remember, you cannot regenerate mana against a druid).
You can ignore the rest of the argument if you'd like, but the point is that this is all occurring simultaneously. In the context of having that many defensive counters and lockdowns (and let's not forget mass earthsong, the portable reincarnation of the much maligned grove eject), being able to slow someone's offense by 33% unstoppably is completely over the top.
I see an issue with noctec/choke interaction given both can be delivered on the same combo (root choke writhe shouldn't take balance imo), but a lvl 1 balance evocation/root combo is a bit under 3 seconds. Druids have poor affliction pressure. The only reason noctec would cause issues on subsequent rounds is because someone is chain-smoking linseed and has no balance, and/or they are attacking at some crazy 2+ aff every 2 second speed. But these are the exact reasons why someone would use noctec in the first place.
An important detail here is that choke ALSO slows pipe balance. You're correct in that most of the time 1v1, it really won't matter if they're being bad and just spamming balance knock and noctec, because the knock won't be affected. There's no counter to noctec + choke though: if you're off pipe balance, now you're going to eat a long writhe balance unless you turn off writhe autocuring, and you get a long pipe balance on top of that.
I sure wish ashcloud also did constant asphyxiation damage, prevented movement and could be done off balance with no resource cost.
Or argue the fact that you don't need to use offbal empower to delay an affliction offense when you have access to might and fitness, which, used intelligently, would be more than sufficient to tank those affs and still pressure damage and|or mana.
You can ignore the rest of the argument if you'd like, but the point is that this is all occurring simultaneously. In the context of having that many defensive counters and lockdowns (and let's not forget mass earthsong, the portable reincarnation of the much maligned grove eject), being able to slow someone's offense by 33% unstoppably is completely over the top.
I'm ignoring the rest because I don't really have the experience or know-how to argue it, and I'm not sure I want to. I just made a very specific point, then others added onto it, like...
You can't attempt to invalidate someone's arguments because you're ill prepared to defend them. Please stop.
I'm not invalidating it, I am saying that I'm going to stay on-topic about my reply. I don't have the experience or knowledge to argue the rest of it. This is the internet and we're using forums, someone with more experience/thinks they have more experience is bound to speak up if the point can be argued. I don't want to argue secondary points to what I was saying, but I also don't want to cut out parts and not reply to the rest, so I told him why I'm not going to.
What game did you play? Clearly not this one. Probably going to be a jerk here, but if you believe this was possible than your six year old opinions were likely incorrect just like your present day remarks are.
This one, and they could have been incorrect. Back then I know what I did and it worked, and nobody was complaining. Then again, there were only maybe three of us instead of five plus, so maybe that's why?
Erliovan, I just want you to step into my shoes and go fight Baasche/any non-arti'd druid.
I think Baasche is the only one I know without, unless Nyanko is. I'll give Baasche a try later. Being a Druid myself, I'm not sure how much it will help. Usually I fight the artifacted ones, since I'm only fighting artifacted Stavennites.
Edit: I'm not sure what you're expecting me to see. I'm not saying Druid is just dandy and shouldn't be touched. I don't want misinformation. If they're focusing on getting rid of all the things that upset balance, that's fine. Let's also get rid of the fleas, and the pets, and all the things. I'd love a better management system for earth/air. I wouldn't even mind the speed/strength, probably, except for against mobs. I'm not qualified to really debate it, though, since all of my research is basically rt What should I do? I admit a lot has changed since I was around.
Comments
Also ether
hallucinating. [hallucinations]
impatient. [impatience]
feeling like a true hero. [heroism]
poisoned by a wisp.[poisonwisp]
sensitive to pain. [sensitivity]
blind. [blind]
an insomniac. [insomnia]
cursed by Nature.[naturecurse]
Your wounds cause you to bleed 35 health.
Iniar secures his previously wielded item and instantly draws a nacreous
Scepter of Protection into his left hand.
Iniar swings a nacreous Scepter of Protection and it flares with sudden power.
The image of Ferriter blurs, fading to a green nebula as he vanishes to the
ether.
He is followed by a fat wobbling puffin and a runic golem.
Alvetta is suddenly dragged away into a distance.
The image of Baasche, riding a black and white mare, blurs, fading to a green
nebula as he vanishes to the ether.
He is followed by a mighty earth golem, an animated apple root, an animated
birch root, and an animated hawthorn root.
Aislygn is suddenly dragged away into a distance.
The image of Ihsan blurs, fading to a green nebula as he vanishes to the ether.
He is followed by a ravenous hound.
The image of Cassius blurs, fading to a green nebula as he vanishes to the
ether.
Your surroundings suddenly blur and a great force drags you away into a
distance.
I also need to figure out what I'm doing wrong, because when Ihsan came for me he was at around 95% mana when I killed him, and I'm pretty certain I was using all the things Baasche does.
I'm willing to be enlightened, but as someone who is just a tri-trans player with no combat artifacts, I don't see the issues fighting people that I've heard complaints about. I'm not as good as Baasche, admittedly, so maybe I just need to find that win button.
Edit: At least the one immediately complained about above me.* We've been talking about how to fix the wisp, but the balance taking issue I don't see.
The issue is that druid has no opportunity cost for anything - "What is he supposed to do?" is kind of an amusing question because right now, druid has a dozen options that are all amazing. Slow balance and balance knocks, constant bleed and mana drains, comboable writhes, heal denies - all usable any round with no penalty. There's no build-up and there's no realistic counterplay, because Druid also has the ability to completely lock someone in a room with choke, trip, rubble effects, root strips that share none of the drawbacks of dopplegangers (where is my root exorcise and root pacify?). If I were to even make headway on my offensive progression, I then have to consider that druid has fitness, might, prismatic AND vitality - all ways to counter momentum I have built. I do not have any of these options myself.
I hate to frame the complaint this way, but I'm pretty darned artifacted both offensively and defensively, and I have trouble dealing with druids who have virtually no investment other than tri-trans. It could just be that I'm objectively bad at this game, but I doubt that everyone fighting druids is simply just not getting it. It's gotten to the point where my interest in combat has taken a huge plunge, because these fights feel like an insurmountable uphill battle.
The other big issue is that druid only gains strength as the fight goes on, the never really have to use their gathered resources (imbue, air) for anything because it's far more efficient just to use poisonwisps and build air to max while your empowerments carry you up to max imbue. Now you're sitting at full damage and attacking really quick and have expended nothing to do so! Empower should cost you imbue. All wisps should cost air. Imbue and air should have other means of generation. You should be limited to choosing between an empowerment/wisp/naturebinding attack. Other classes have to make strategic choices about such things. I mean, imagine a Summoner who after a few rounds can then be instant intensifying every attack; it would be just plain unfair. And that, in many ways, is exactly what druid is right now.
The issue with the off balance knock is that it does not cost the Druid any real momentum. It is not costing imbue, it is not slowing their offense in any meaningful way (remember, you cannot regenerate mana against a druid).
You can ignore the rest of the argument if you'd like, but the point is that this is all occurring simultaneously. In the context of having that many defensive counters and lockdowns (and let's not forget mass earthsong, the portable reincarnation of the much maligned grove eject), being able to slow someone's offense by 33% unstoppably is completely over the top.
Step out of your golden goose bias and actually read the log for what it is. I'll give you some background. Baasche is awful. Always has been.
Baasche is able to passively inflict a ton of mana damage at little to no cost.
Baasche's entire offense was a stall tactic (which played into ^^^^^)
Baasche's 'stall' offense did more damage than most damage classes (Note: Baasche isn't min-maxed because he switches classes every week).
What game did you play? Clearly not this one. Probably going to be a jerk here, but if you believe this was possible than your six year old opinions were likely incorrect just like your present day remarks are.
I see an issue with noctec/choke interaction given both can be delivered on the same combo (root choke writhe shouldn't take balance imo), but a lvl 1 balance evocation/root combo is a bit under 3 seconds. Druids have poor affliction pressure. The only reason noctec would cause issues on subsequent rounds is because someone is chain-smoking linseed and has no balance, and/or they are attacking at some crazy 2+ aff every 2 second speed. But these are the exact reasons why someone would use noctec in the first place.
I sure wish ashcloud also did constant asphyxiation damage, prevented movement and could be done off balance with no resource cost.