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  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    The best defense against it is stupidity spam - I had to throw in a check to make sure I absolutely never used any finishers with stupidity on, since it usually meant everything would fire in a terrible, stupid order and ruin the whole thing.


  • LinsletLinslet Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭

    Salik said:
    still shocked that Dreacor died to it earlier, as most people can tank through the damage.
    Actually, most people shouldn't be able to.  It's ROUGHLY a 620 damage burst with both saps up, depending on how much health they had to begin with for the blackthorn germinate.  Blackthorn is damage scaling inversely to how low their health is.  In the above, Iluv has a max of 550.  The hawthorn hawthorn elder is almost always going to blow for 250 after the 300 raw and poisonsap.

    Septus and co, I need to watch when I pop it since they like to roll around with their 650 health, but with the passive damage I -can- probably get it off.
    Wysrias said:
    The best defense against it is stupidity spam - I had to throw in a check to make sure I absolutely never used any finishers with stupidity on, since it usually meant everything would fire in a terrible, stupid order and ruin the whole thing.
    Stupidity spam is good.  Reflections will catch the bellow.  Prismatic just nullifies the whole thing and makes me mad.
    Today we shall die.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Linslet said:
    Septus and co, I need to watch when I pop it since they like to roll around with their 650 health, but with the passive damage I -can- probably get it off.
    669-700, depending on what modulation gives us.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • LinsletLinslet Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    Was going off memory!

    If I can get you below about the 600 mark by the time I'm ready to blow, then I'm golden barring vitality.

    If not, I'm kind of SoL.
    Today we shall die.
  • SalikSalik Da BurghMember Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    Linslet, I didn't mean the raw damage. I meant the regular damage from ravage/torment spam.

    Septus, I actually fully agree with it. It is far from ideal, but it is -all- that Defiler has at the moment. Until we adjust the class in some fashion to make other kill methods viable, it needs to stay. Once it does, I'd be fine with changing it. Actually, an odd thought would be to let entropy be cured by an herb at...5% per herb. That herb would have to cure entropy though instead of afflictions when eaten, or it would drastically weaken the class. It might permit affliction buildup. Not sold on that though. In any case, there are many ideas floating around in my head, and I'm happy to discuss them with people, as long as they're given reasonable consideration and not instantly yelled at one way or another!
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I still wonder if Defiler shouldn't be a limb class. It's slow, it has the blunt type going on, and it has Augurapply. Surely not unreasonable to transform it into a limb class outside AM.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Jules
  • SalikSalik Da BurghMember Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    It actually could do a fair bit with limbs with a little tweaking. I was considering aspects of that for what I was looking at. I was actually looking at limb damage and salve affliction stacks to maybe pin long enough to permit Implantation. It isn't viable as it is now.
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    I am really surprised there aren't more limb classes.  I absolutely hate limb classes because parrying well is insanely hard for most people.  I mean, I am never, ever going to forget when I joked that I'd heard Kryss' parry system was 500 lines.  And she correct me that it was actually around 600.  That said, it's classic IRE material, especially for 1 v. 1.  If it becomes bigger, I do hope it remains a 1 v. 1 tactic.  Most of the game cannot, and will not ever be able to parry that well.  
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016

    Jules said:
    I mean, I am never, ever going to forget when I joked that I'd heard Kryss' parry system was 500 lines.  And she correct me that it was actually around 600.  
    This right here is kind of why PvP combat is intimidating to me, and I'm sure others as well.

    1047 lines for my healing_gags.tf file and thats just replacements for eating and curing with about half the herbs (mostly turning 2-3 lines into one).  I lost steam/interest halfway through TBQH.
    image
    Jules
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    I've psyched myself out pretty hard with combat, over a period of time.  And that is considering that I am almost exclusively a group combatant (which is definitely the place to start).  You just get to a point where it is hard not to feel pretty shitty.  
  • AnetteAnette Member Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    As I said in the I Hate thing, it's just knowing that getting to a decent level of a combatant is a lot of work and code, and not wanting to impose on people while I slowly churn through hundreds of lines of code testing and retesting one specific element.  I will probably avail @Cyr of their offer when I get back home and settled again, all the same, and give it the ol try.

    To return to the topic of limb classes though, I personally actually don't mind parry or limb classes as an idea.  Granted, my experience is getting beaten on as a target for a few people so I can't say that I have a huge body of experience, but I wouldn't be down on some variety.
    image
    Mirrors
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    Right, they are classic IRE, and the upper end absolutely thrives on them.  I really am surprised there aren't more, and that there isn't at least one per circle.  
  • IluvIluv Member Posts: 703 ✭✭✭✭
    Why not just bring vodun and retardation back?
    image
    IniarMenoch
  • SalikSalik Da BurghMember Posts: 143 ✭✭✭
    What was so awful about Vodun? I never did see the skillset. Retardation I'll pass on.

    As for classic IRE stuff... Hey, I'm working on improving my parry, bit by bit!
    Menoch
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 776 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Parry can be as simple or complex as you make it. At the end of the day, there aren't a ton of variables to consider, at least compared to standard affliction combat avenues. Once you realise that most classes don't actually care about all the limbs, that number of variables to consider shrinks by an order of magnitude. Honestly, outrider is the only really big exception to that rule in imperian, and I don't really count it as a traditional limb class. The class isn't actually trying to go for a limb setup, its just using limbs to burn your salve balance while the real danger (hypothermia) stacks up.

    Generally, if you give an ire player a problem that can be over engineered, it will be over engineered, because everyone likes an edge. But at the upper end parry systems hit a very steap diminishing return. Don't feel like you need some kind of crazy system, because frankly? If a parry system can beat a class? That class is going to be buffed so it can't. Parry will buy you time, it won't fix your issues and is way down the list of things to focus on.

    AnetteJulesIniar
  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    "Parry will buy you time, it won't fix your issues and is way down the list of things to focus on."

    Been a while since you've died to a lowbie ranger, huh?
    image
    Theophilus
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 776 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are much, much better defences against a ranger than your parry system. In fact, your parry system isn't going to mean much in practice because any ranger with a clue is going to break the first limb with a tipslash, and unless you're one of the very few profs with a faster attack bal than a athletic tipslash you're not going to get your parry switching opportunity before the second break, by which point its probably too late. Fairly static parry is actually your best option in a lot of cases against ranger, because the smarter you get the more likely it is that your parry is going to be on something they don't need when it comes down to the execute (which, vs ranger, is the only time that absolutely matters).

    But that is pretty much why super parry systems tend to be untouchable for rangers in labratory conditions, and in live play they suddenly don't work anywhere near as well.

    Anette
  • TheophilusTheophilus Member Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭
    Really does parry matter unless you're fighting me? Every other decent monk/ranger (who fights by breaking limbs) is gone. And most outriders aren't going for shatter via breaking limbs. If you're smart enough to code 600 lines of a parry system, you're probably smart enough to beat me without doing all that.

    Make an alias prl for parry right leg, pla for parry left arm, etc. and just randomly queue it on occasion and you'll probably win. I am not a clever man.


    (Ring): Lartus says, "I heard Theophilus once threw a grenade and killed ten people."
    (Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."

    (Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
    AnetteMenoch
  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Manual parry relies on the user input. User input is bad, because users are bad.

    Parry is effective because people are bad at limb targeting. Having been on both sides of the incendiary, parry can extend your chance to kill your target tremendously, and against some people, a little proper parrying is enough to completely ruin their ability to kill you.

    @Septus, you're talking about cases that don't tend to pop up. In your example case, this Ranger is using tipslash(which many don't ever use) immediately after my balance, because there is a relatively short window where they will be able to make sure I don't get a chance to parry again,(which isn't something I've ever seen a Ranger actually do). It's also not the only way that parrying can make a significant difference on the Ranger's offense. Hard blocking prepped arms forces a Ranger to prep another limb, prolonging the setup by 50%. I've seen people hit my parry as much as 50% of the time in regular combat anyway, which effectively doubled their prep time.

    Parry is necessary when fighting a Ranger, and the amount of effort it actually takes to implement parrying that can make a Ranger's life significantly harder is so much less than people act. Not sure where all this 600 line nonsense is coming from? My parry system(which has been pretty effective in the past at keeping me from gibbage) is 49 lines in a script and something like 7 triggers.

    Edit: To be clear, no, parry will not completely shut down a really good Ranger if they're trying to kill you, and eventually, a good Ranger can learn how your parrying works and maneuver around it. Thing is, even if they do that they're still forced to prep more limbs, or in a slower manner, rather than just pulling off a 4 combo incinerate like you can on someone with no parry at all. On top of that, look around and tell me how many top-tier Rangers there are?

    Edit 2: Also, to be clear, I'd like to point out that I think the primary mechanic that Defiler is built on is possibly one of the worst offensive mechanics in this game. When the best counter-play options you have for a play-style are "stay away for 60 seconds" and "hope that stupidity hits during the finishing combo and they don't just generate repetitive commands under stupidity to bypass the mechanic entirely", you know the play-style(and related skills) might need serious attention.
    image
    Sevhn
  • OzreasOzreas Member, Beta Testers Posts: 235 ✭✭✭✭


    Dicene said:
    Manual parry relies on the user input. User input is bad, because users are bad.


    Best drug addiction awareness PSA 2016.


    Anette
  • SeptusSeptus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 776 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We'll have to agree to disagree, I think.

    I'm not sure what ranger prep your thinking of, but the optimal (standing start) one requires two limbs. The ideal one (but requires some very minor momentum before execution) requires one. If you're counting on parry to save you and the ranger is bad, you're probably going to be disappointed. If the ranger is good you definitely are.

    Every ranger I've fought waits for the off bal before break execution when going for the two limb approach. Granted most don't use tipslash, but its because they don't need to: qjab is still one of the fastest attacks in the game.

    Like I said. It might buy you some time, but there are much, much better things to work on for dodging ranger, and they're not reliant on either the ranger being bad or rng being your friend. But if it works for you, it works and that's what matters.

    Anette
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    My internet provider(s) have wrecked me so hard over the last two months, this doesn't even bother me. :( I'm a broken man.

    If you come to Australia, I hope you don't like the internet.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    Sevhn
  • TheophilusTheophilus Member Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭
    2 v 1 against @Arcann and @Zenigra after killing Zenigra three or so times.

    (Ring): Lartus says, "I heard Theophilus once threw a grenade and killed ten people."
    (Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."

    (Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
    KristosSevhnDreacor
  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    image
    image
    AnetteOhmMenochTahirah
  • TheophilusTheophilus Member Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    ..
    (Ring): Lartus says, "I heard Theophilus once threw a grenade and killed ten people."
    (Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."

    (Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
  • TheophilusTheophilus Member Posts: 784 ✭✭✭✭
    Your arrow spins out of control as a Bow of Asaka snaps in two from the stress your overdraw places on it.
    (Ring): Lartus says, "I heard Theophilus once threw a grenade and killed ten people."
    (Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."

    (Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
    IniarDiceneSevhnKristos
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