I was talking about the griefing mechanic as well as the ability to avoid combat.. " I want to kill you...!" -> Twist ring = no combat. The veil doesn't stop combat, just makes it harder to find someone. Not only that, the ring can return to any place to continue combat.. is that not giving the ability to cause grief with no real cost? Tracking pets avoid the Veil altogether, as do a lot of other active seeking skills: wyrm track, portal wand, stalk (if in area) What I'm saying is that the Veil does what it's supposed to, at a suitably exorbitant cost.. Why should those that pay for the arti then later become disadvantaged, or have that arti reduced because it's doing it's job?
When your best argument for you broken thing is defending it by mentioning another broken thing, that should be a warning sign. For some reason, the administration has a huge boner for "We sell this in an auction so it should be broken."
@Ageranu Sarrius said it best, the veil doesn't fit the game. It ranks up there with grace, graced rooms, and mechanics that prevent retribution. The point of the pvp game is opt-in combat. No one makes you fight. You're usually dying because at some point you involved yourself. As such, someone should be able to get back at you for that. The veil denies people that. You piss and moan when anything in combat doesn't go your way. Imagine the scenario where you're trying to kill the level 80, dual trans people you normally kill and you can't find out where they are while they're insulting your heritage and choice of ascot. It's like that.
I must admit, I'm the other side of the scale to you, nowhere should be safe..
This is especially amusing when it's coming from a guy who spent 2000 credits to hide from PvP.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
"Don't like your complete inability to reliably find me? Come and fight me!"
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I must admit, I'm the other side of the scale to you, nowhere should be safe..
This is especially amusing when it's coming from a guy who spent 2000 credits to hide from PvP.
Actually, I spent 2000 cr to find people with a Veil, like Eldreth. If people want to fight me, I'm up for it.. I might even win once in a while, though unlikely..
"Don't like your complete inability to reliably find me? Come and fight me!"
Just means I might get some warning before I'm ambushed.. like a hound/kestrel wandering in the check my location. "Hey Ageranu, I dislike the part of your fur, come fight me!" "Sure, why not."
There are very few that allow you to find a raider. They are indoors, so pet track doesn't work. They're on monoliths, so portal etc doesn't work. The chance that they have pets is high, but smart raiders leave those at home so soulsense etc doesn't work. You can prism, but then you're taking the fight to them, giving them what they want, and they're prepared for it. By the time you're alive again to move guards to the room you now know, they've moved to a different one and the whole thing starts again.
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
If it's for raid defense, Druids can use root track to find a veiled person in the area. I would guess that Summoners could do something similar with their doppelganger, but I don't actually know.
Again, doing anything along those lines immediately tells the intruder that they're about to get ganked, and they'll just move to another room before you get there.
Sarrius said: It isn't a significant combat advantage - it is a significant griefing advantage.
Hello Raksha Band, artifact tracking pet, mark return and any other number of skills that provide griefing advantages.
I
must admit, I'm the other side of the scale to you, nowhere should be
safe.. if you can get in my city, and I'm stupid enough to stand there
without interaction/defences.. you SHOULD kill me. City raids -used- to
be a fun mechanic of the game. The good ol' days and all that, of
struggling your ass off to eject an invader who wasn't there for any
other reason that to kick your ass for fun. For a game that revolves
around PK, and people wanting to PK.. we sure do a lot of.. "This place
is safe", and "you have no reason to hurt me"
Yes, this game has a lot of PK and is very combat focused. And the problem is that veil is anti-PK. The very fact it makes you a pain to find, letting you run around and do whatever you like with so little chance of retaliation makes it that way.
Again, doing anything along those lines immediately tells the intruder that they're about to get ganked, and they'll just move to another room before you get there.
Warning will do the same thing, really.
The problem with depending on roots and such is that root seek is 3 seconds and it's another 4 seconds to summon it back. This kind of delay makes it basically impossible to track anybody down. This is acceptable, if irritating, outside of cities. It's hugely frustrating for catching raiders in cities, though, especially in cities like Kinsarmar or Celidon, where the city design makes any kind of area defense an exercise in futility and the raiders basically have huge areas they can cover with a minimal risk to themselves.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
We should take a vote among all veil owners to see if they would prefer a change to veil or not.
I would be completely fine with veil changing if there also was a change to how shadowing (in Sabotage) works. Either shadowing should bypass foreboding/bloodscent or stealth professions should be given an activated defence (maybe with mana drain) that allows them to bypass foreboding/bloodscent.
That's like asking a corporate board to vote on if the law should apply to their poor business practices or not.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Ageranu lets loose a roar of triumph as he becomes a Champion of mortalkind. (Opt in pk)
farsee ageranu
You can see nothing but darkness.
eq: 1.05 x900 (lolno. Opt out of pk, keep benefit.)
Please note, that even with a Veil, cover tracks and soul mask give the same effect to me (You can see nothing but darkness.) unless spammed repeatedly..which without the Obelisk would trigger warning, and give the person the option to escape early. A really smart option (though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one) "Hey Lionas, where is Ageranu?" "Oh he's hunting in Sienna Forest" " Ok thanks".... Given the amount that Lionas uses scan enemies, or farsee.. Most people actually ignore him seeking them now..
You close your eyes and seek out your enemies. Equilibrium Taken: 6.15s a market stall stockroom. (unknown) [1] - Arakis Forge of the Lion. (613) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Sarrius Cul-de-sac in Zephyr Plaza. (3340) (Celidon Council.) [1] - Raini Kinsarmar Crossroads. (103) (City of Kinsarmar.) [1] - Valir Taproom of the Silver Harp. (947) (City of Kinsarmar.) [3] - Braidan Lytharose Camaris Victory Circle. (590) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Ageranu The Grand Kinsarmarian Library. (175) (City of Kinsarmar.) [2] - Verexa Ferriter The Celidon Threshold. (1567) (Celidon Council.) [1] - Tikal The extensive Stavenn Library. (336) (City of Stavenn.) [1] - Avantus A fertile field filled with flowers. (848) (Ruins of n'Aryanvella.) [1] - Ionious Within the dark reaches of the Threshold. (7255) (Celidon Council.) [1] - Jarrhn Wide expanse of water. (2303,...) (Sodiuar Lake.) [1] - Howard Antioch Shuk. (605) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Celestine Rubble-studded aspen forest. (unknown) [1] - Canavas Clothing tent. (617) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Blyth Blue Sun Cafe. (unknown) [1] - Lalithri A dense thicket. (9501) (Lirhin Clearing.) [1] - Tubble The Nest. (unknown) [1] - Estelle A gambling parlour. (601) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Seria Where wildflowers grow. (12708) (Demon's Pass.) [1] - Iyrandar Within a decrepit stable. (125211) (ruins of Caanae.) [1] - Lyaewyn A broken path between fallen homes. (25) (ruins of Caanae.) [1] - Cas Total - 25 people
I am the righteous one... the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Ageranu, you are reaching for justification. Soulmask and Cover Tracks are also not fine, but you can at least get through them with WHO, spammed farsee, and other location skills. (EDIT: 'Five other classes get this a weaker version of benefit!' is also a horrible defense on your part - five classes is ~25% of the classes in the game, and Cover Tracks/Soulmask are not nearly as similar to Veil as you are trying to lead people to believe.. both of these skills do not grant an automatic bonus that allows you to pierce other player's use of those skills. A big argument against Veil is that the only counter to it is to ALSO spend 2,000 credits - not acceptable whatsoever. EDIT2: Magick also has no equivalent even if those skills allowed you to pierce them.)
Veils aren't OK. I get that you spent 2,000 credits - but 2,000 credits does not exempt anybody from overarching game balance. You can posture all you like about how 'people deserve to die for being AFK' or 'the game should be less safe', but in the end, all you are doing is making yourself look stubborn. The direction you want the game to go in definitely is not the direction they want to take it in - and this thread is about offering up a solution to one of the biggest issues remaining in terms of going in said direction: being incapable of being found is an unacceptable advantage when it comes to city 'raids'.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
being incapable of being found is an unacceptable advantage when it comes to city 'raids'.
Except that you -can- be found, other people have veils, stalk works, prism still works, root seek as previously stated. I get that it pisses people off that they can't just find certain people at the drop of a hat, but that's exactly what paying the 2000cr gives you the privilege of. More people would have them (likely) if they didn't jump classes/circles and want to buy every class and artifact in the game.
Maybe I should be posting 'I Hate', but it comes down to.. I hate that people are trying to nerf something because they either can't/won't buy their own, and because it makes the local gank squad work a little harder.
Either way, done posting about this. I've tried to make a point from my perspective, but it seems it's not making a dent. I'm not one to flog a dead horse.. Enjoy the forums.
being incapable of being found is an unacceptable advantage when it comes to city 'raids'.
Except that you -can- be found, other people have veils, stalk works, prism still works, root seek as previously stated. I get that it pisses people off that they can't just find certain people at the drop of a hat, but that's exactly what paying the 2000cr gives you the privilege of. More people would have them (likely) if they didn't jump classes/circles and want to buy every class and artifact in the game.
Maybe I should be posting 'I Hate', but it comes down to.. I hate that people are trying to nerf something because they either can't/won't buy their own, and because it makes the local gank squad work a little harder.
RE: Can be found..
Other people have veils, yes - but that requires that they invest 600 USD worth of credits in to the same artifact. Root seek operates on 7 seconds worth of balance - which is ~7 farseeks. Prism doesn't work, because the response to prism is as always: move. You can move, return to your business, and move again when they try to prism on the rebound. This isn't rocket science - you are presenting poor options in an attempt to justify a broken advantage. It isn't about pissing people off that they can't find you and stomp you while you are bashing - lord knows, have fun enjoying PK when only 3 out of 100 players can find you. It's about the fact that when you are inside of an enemy city, you should be required to make the same trade-off of risks that all other non-veil raiders do - the trade-off of risks that balance the defense-offense game in a way that is not numeric. Artifacts should not buy you out of the finer points of balance in terms of city defense. Veils prevent people from finding you easily to bring guards to you or retaliating. They allow you to relocate easily to continue throwing people off, and they are helpless unless they also invest 2,000 credits (more than two entire professions worth of credits, mind you) on something just to have a CHANCE at locating and stopping you.
RE: People circle hopping
This is a straw man - you are placing the blame on the victim instead of accepting the responsibility of your own ownership of a poorly designed and balanced artifact. The artifact is the issue - not people who change circles or class to continue enjoying themselves, sorry.
RE: People wanting to nerf your broken artifact
You are trying to verbally minimize the damage this kind of benefit has on the game at large by, once again, bringing up monetary costs. It isn't about affording or not affording - hell, I could buy one right now if I wanted and if I did I would still be very much against the damn things. There is a difference between 'fair and difficult' and 'imbalanced'. The veil is the latter of the two, and your ownership bias automatically makes your defense of the thing very suspect.
Either way, done posting about this. I've tried to make a point from my perspective, but it seems it's not making a dent. I'm not one to flog a dead horse.. Enjoy the forums.
I'm not surprised you are giving up - the reason your 'defense' of Veils isn't making a dent is because the points you bring up are minimal (and wrong) at best.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Comments
The veil does not compare to a single thing you listed there.
@Ageranu Sarrius said it best, the veil doesn't fit the game. It ranks up there with grace, graced rooms, and mechanics that prevent retribution. The point of the pvp game is opt-in combat. No one makes you fight. You're usually dying because at some point you involved yourself. As such, someone should be able to get back at you for that. The veil denies people that. You piss and moan when anything in combat doesn't go your way. Imagine the scenario where you're trying to kill the level 80, dual trans people you normally kill and you can't find out where they are while they're insulting your heritage and choice of ascot. It's like that.
This is especially amusing when it's coming from a guy who spent 2000 credits to hide from PvP.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Blind portal to god knows where?
Blind prism?
None of these locate. Most of the time, these more than likely get you dead.
Khizan mentioned pet glance, but I'm pretty sure Ageranu runs at the sight of location. (He does)
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Imperian should include a "reason for purchase" field on the form for credit kickbacks, ala mentor bonus
Warning will do the same thing, really.
The problem with depending on roots and such is that root seek is 3 seconds and it's another 4 seconds to summon it back. This kind of delay makes it basically impossible to track anybody down. This is acceptable, if irritating, outside of cities. It's hugely frustrating for catching raiders in cities, though, especially in cities like Kinsarmar or Celidon, where the city design makes any kind of area defense an exercise in futility and the raiders basically have huge areas they can cover with a minimal risk to themselves.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I would be completely fine with veil changing if there also was a change to how shadowing (in Sabotage) works. Either shadowing should bypass foreboding/bloodscent or stealth professions should be given an activated defence (maybe with mana drain) that allows them to bypass foreboding/bloodscent.
Equilibrium Taken: 6.15s
a market stall stockroom. (unknown) [1] - Arakis
Forge of the Lion. (613) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Sarrius
Cul-de-sac in Zephyr Plaza. (3340) (Celidon Council.) [1] - Raini
Kinsarmar Crossroads. (103) (City of Kinsarmar.) [1] - Valir
Taproom of the Silver Harp. (947) (City of Kinsarmar.) [3] - Braidan Lytharose Camaris
Victory Circle. (590) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Ageranu
The Grand Kinsarmarian Library. (175) (City of Kinsarmar.) [2] - Verexa Ferriter
The Celidon Threshold. (1567) (Celidon Council.) [1] - Tikal
The extensive Stavenn Library. (336) (City of Stavenn.) [1] - Avantus
A fertile field filled with flowers. (848) (Ruins of n'Aryanvella.) [1] - Ionious
Within the dark reaches of the Threshold. (7255) (Celidon Council.) [1] - Jarrhn
Wide expanse of water. (2303,...) (Sodiuar Lake.) [1] - Howard
Antioch Shuk. (605) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Celestine
Rubble-studded aspen forest. (unknown) [1] - Canavas
Clothing tent. (617) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Blyth
Blue Sun Cafe. (unknown) [1] - Lalithri
A dense thicket. (9501) (Lirhin Clearing.) [1] - Tubble
The Nest. (unknown) [1] - Estelle
A gambling parlour. (601) (City of Antioch.) [1] - Seria
Where wildflowers grow. (12708) (Demon's Pass.) [1] - Iyrandar
Within a decrepit stable. (125211) (ruins of Caanae.) [1] - Lyaewyn
A broken path between fallen homes. (25) (ruins of Caanae.) [1] - Cas
Total - 25 people
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
Veils aren't OK. I get that you spent 2,000 credits - but 2,000 credits does not exempt anybody from overarching game balance. You can posture all you like about how 'people deserve to die for being AFK' or 'the game should be less safe', but in the end, all you are doing is making yourself look stubborn. The direction you want the game to go in definitely is not the direction they want to take it in - and this thread is about offering up a solution to one of the biggest issues remaining in terms of going in said direction: being incapable of being found is an unacceptable advantage when it comes to city 'raids'.
RE: Can be found..
Other people have veils, yes - but that requires that they invest 600 USD worth of credits in to the same artifact. Root seek operates on 7 seconds worth of balance - which is ~7 farseeks. Prism doesn't work, because the response to prism is as always: move. You can move, return to your business, and move again when they try to prism on the rebound. This isn't rocket science - you are presenting poor options in an attempt to justify a broken advantage. It isn't about pissing people off that they can't find you and stomp you while you are bashing - lord knows, have fun enjoying PK when only 3 out of 100 players can find you. It's about the fact that when you are inside of an enemy city, you should be required to make the same trade-off of risks that all other non-veil raiders do - the trade-off of risks that balance the defense-offense game in a way that is not numeric. Artifacts should not buy you out of the finer points of balance in terms of city defense. Veils prevent people from finding you easily to bring guards to you or retaliating. They allow you to relocate easily to continue throwing people off, and they are helpless unless they also invest 2,000 credits (more than two entire professions worth of credits, mind you) on something just to have a CHANCE at locating and stopping you.
RE: People circle hopping
This is a straw man - you are placing the blame on the victim instead of accepting the responsibility of your own ownership of a poorly designed and balanced artifact. The artifact is the issue - not people who change circles or class to continue enjoying themselves, sorry.
RE: People wanting to nerf your broken artifact
You are trying to verbally minimize the damage this kind of benefit has on the game at large by, once again, bringing up monetary costs. It isn't about affording or not affording - hell, I could buy one right now if I wanted and if I did I would still be very much against the damn things. There is a difference between 'fair and difficult' and 'imbalanced'. The veil is the latter of the two, and your ownership bias automatically makes your defense of the thing very suspect.
I'm not surprised you are giving up - the reason your 'defense' of Veils isn't making a dent is because the points you bring up are minimal (and wrong) at best.