Story Issue Spin off Topic

Jeremy Saunders

I do not want this topic (http://forums.imperian.com/discussion/160/story-and-theme-problems) to get polluted with debate, so I am posting some of those points here along with some of my explanations.

Here are some answers to some common things I saw in the posts.

1. Why do the factions hate each other? Just hating someone because I was told to by a god, or because it has always been that way is stupid.

Why does anyone hate anyone? Look at any major civilization, religion, or ideology in history. They hate and kill each other land, power, possessions, and just because it has always been that way. 

In the histories AM started out by believing that magick was a bad thing for mortals and shunned those who practiced it. Demonic and Magick split because some mortals believed that dabbling in certain magicks (like the demon realms) for any reason was a bad idea. Add on a few thousand years, a ton of wars, lots of murder, hate, killing, and the lines are drawn in the sand, no matter how illogical it may seem at times.

2. The demonic plane was sealed away with the Hammer of the gods. Get rid of demons in the skills.

No, the major portal for demons to enter the physical realm was closed. Mortals can still manipulate demons as they have always done. Demons can still sneak into the realm as well with great effort, but the days of massive legions of demons entering the world is long gone. The demonic realm still exists and mortals can still screw around with it.

3. Demonic is evil, Magick is neutral, AM is good.

I concede that they names make it seem that way. However there is no reason for it to be that way. Let's face some facts though. People who want to play with demons are probably going to be perceived more 'evil' then those who do not. However, this is based on what you as a real world person thinks. In the real world we have we learn that demons are evil, god and angels are good. When I planned out the three factions, I did not realize that people would come in with that quite as hard as they did. Also, Achaea at that point was every much like that and a lot of people came over from Achaea with that in their heads too. In my mind I saw the potential of AM being Salem witch hunters or supremacists, indiscriminately killing anyone that had anything to do with magick. 

I HATE the idea that one faction is good, evil, neutral. Each faction has evil, good, and neutral characters within them. Well, that is they way I would like it to be in my perfect little world.

4. Change the story for this faction.

We cannot change the story for a faction, that story has been there for thousands of years. You cannot change the past. We can add stuff to the story and we can change some mechanics to help facilitate the movement of that faction in the future. That being said, we are not going to change the fact that we have three separate ideologies that need to be maintained.

Those three ideals are:

1. All Magick is dangerous and must be avoided. 

2. Magick is fine, but must be used with caution. Some magicks are dangerous and should not be used.

3. All forms of Magick are acceptable.

One can find parallels with these concepts in the real world. These ideals are backed up by years and years of wars, hatred, and conflict. They are the major conflict points in the game. We are not going to consider changing this. What we can do is add to it to make it more meaningful.

5. Explain how magick works.

It's magick, it is not real. I do not want to do the Star Wars thing and explain that is it a chemical in the body or equally lame. That is looking too far into it. It is magick! Ooooooeeerrr.

Khizan

Jeremy said:

3. Demonic is evil, Magick is neutral, AM is good.

I concede that they names make it seem that way. However there is no reason for it to be that way. Let's face some facts though. People who want to play with demons are probably going to be perceived more 'evil' then those who do not. However, this is based on what you as a real world person thinks. In the real world we have we learn that demons are evil, god and angels are good. When I planned out the three factions, I did not realize that people would come in with that quite as hard as they did. Also, Achaea at that point was every much like that and a lot of people came over from Achaea with that in their heads too. In my mind I saw the potential of AM being Salem witch hunters or supremacists, indiscriminately killing anyone that had anything to do with magick. 

I HATE the idea that one faction is good, evil, neutral. Each faction has evil, good, and neutral characters within them. Well, that is they way I would like it to be in my perfect little world.

I don't say that demonic is evil because of demons versus angels and demons bad!

I say that demonic is cast as evil because of things like this:

 Drawing on the power of undeath, you wreathe your hand in black, crackling energy. With a diabolical laugh, you stiffen your hand and slowly run it down Dias's chest, splitting it open as you do so. With an expert touch, you rip apart his innards, causing a maximum of horrifying pain, and, enjoying the spectacle of Dias writhing and screaming in agony, you rip out his sternum and drive it through his splayed body, pinning him to the ground to die.

The summoning and control of demonic powers isn't outright evil, no. But cackling as you do that? 

Yeah, that's pretty textbook Evil, sad to say. You can't really cast that in a good light. 

Jeremy Saunders

I see your point, but changing a few messages is not going to change that perception.

This entire game revolves around killing people. Some of you spend hours and hours killing mobs. Some of you kill other players. Basically, I feel that nearly all of your characters are evil, unless you are really, really roleplaying that and being amazingly careful about what mobs and players your character is killing.

Bathan

I would ask what the playerbase thinks. IF a majority of the playerbase believes that changing messages like vivisect is going to give them more room to work with their character, ask for some individuals who excel at writing to come up with some ideas. It's a text game. If text is telling me I use TURBO EVIL BLACK DARKNESS POWER TO RIP OUT STERNUMS I am probably going to get the feeling that I am a straight up evil dude.

I understand that you feel like it doesn't make a difference, but for a fair few people, it does.

Gurn

Khizan said:

I don't say that demonic is evil because of demons versus angels and demons bad!

I say that demonic is cast as evil because of things like this:

 Drawing on the power of undeath, you wreathe your hand in black, crackling energy. With a diabolical laugh, you stiffen your hand and slowly run it down Dias's chest, splitting it open as you do so. With an expert touch, you rip apart his innards, causing a maximum of horrifying pain, and, enjoying the spectacle of Dias writhing and screaming in agony, you rip out his sternum and drive it through his splayed body, pinning him to the ground to die.

The summoning and control of demonic powers isn't outright evil, no. But cackling as you do that? 

Yeah, that's pretty textbook Evil, sad to say. You can't really cast that in a good light. 

The diabolical laugh is pretty evil, but I mean, come on. I melt brains and hack people apart with claymores. You strangle people to death after crushing them with rocks and stabbing them with a stick.

If we actually had someone draw the eventual outcomes of all our kills, every single corpse would be pretty gruesome.

Khizan

Jeremy said:

I see your point, but changing a few messages is not going to change that perception.

Changing messages doesn't change the perception; changing messages allows the perception to change. It's a small difference, but it's an important one.

I've got a question for you. Let's pretend you're new to the game. Brand new. You find one side that uses black crackling death magic to torture people to death. What's your first opinion of that side? 

That's why it needs changed.

Edit:

@Gurn Those are violent and messy kills, yes. They'd be awful things to have happen to you, yes. But they're a long step away from outright gleeful torture. If they took their sword/daegger and just chopped you down the center from collarbone to pelvis, it would just be a particularly grisly deathblow. Vivisect as is, is something else entirely.

Bathan

Demonic could honestly do with some sort of storyline similar to the Dark Side one in SWTOR. Sure, you have your crazy maniacal Sith running around being insane and torturing people, and some other people that don't use the force and think, hey, maybe we could just be less crazy. That'd give demonic more options and require less work on the part of retooling skills. I'm not even suggesting that this would turn into the old time Vahin v Baar nonsense. It'd just let people who want to play demonic not be pigeonholed into: SUMMONING THE POWER OF YOUR LATENT ANGST YOU ANGST THIS PERSON AND ANGST THEIR STERNUM RIGHT OUT OF THEIR ANGST BOX.

Ahkan

Going off what Bathan said, you can easily role play "Only the strong survive." Or scarier, you can steal from C&C and call it "peace through power." Both are an amazing role for the Imperial conquest role.There's nothing inherently evil with the quest for power. Killing someone with an instakill and leaving a note on it that says, "Methodically killed by <Player>" is not an evil act. You can easily adjust the message to convey the agony/suffering/death, without going for the "evilevilevil." It's more in tune with 'only the strong survive.'

If you want to drive this home, you need to change the environment. Changing the environment is really subtle changes like changing skill names, tweaking help files and altering the perception of the skills. It's hard to say, "I'M NOT MANIACAL CHAOTIC EVIL...OH SNAP, IS THIS IS YOUR SPLEEN *pop*, LOLOLOL." 

Gurn

Though I love the idea of a city who believes their intentions to be good and wages war and causes lots of harm for the grater good a la warhammer 40k, I do have to wonder-- Where does that put Khandava/Stavenn relations at?

For that matter, where's that put Celidon/Kinsarmar or Antioch/Ithaqua? What's their common goal? I mean, at some points, Ithaqua seems a much more sensible ally with much closer ideals than Kinsarmar. I can't comment on the politics of Antioch and Kinsarmar, but it seems they'd tend to get along if not for the whole magick schtick, too.

Bathan

That's the beauty of it. They'd have similar goals, and would thus have to find ways to roleplay around some of those differences. It'd be a lot more satisfying than, 'yah, well, we both use the same skills and have been hard coded as allies, so all issues will be settled via passive aggressive use of rings'. I'm down for more political intrigue. I doubt there'd be open war considering how inefficient it would be.

Enryk

I think it is freaking awesome that you are wading into this discussion with the forum population, by the way.

Jeremy said:

That being said, we are not going to change the fact that we have three separate ideologies that need to be maintained.

Those three ideals are:

1. All Magick is dangerous and must be avoided. 

2. Magick is fine, but must be used with caution. Some magicks are dangerous and should not be used.

3. All forms of Magick are acceptable.

One can find parallels with these concepts in the real world. These ideals are backed up by years and years of wars, hatred, and conflict. They are the major conflict points in the game. We are not going to consider changing this. What we can do is add to it to make it more meaningful.

Am I understanding correctly that the main conflict in the game is designed to be based upon how libertarian you are? Anti-magick is the extreme anti-libertarian position (the safety and well-being of the state is more important than individual freedom and happiness), Demonic is the extreme pro-libertarian position (everyone is free to pursue their own weird forms of happiness despite the costs to everyone else), and Magick is the default moderate position in between the other two making up the vast majority of the axis?

I know you said you won't consider changing this, and I guess that's that, but is it at least possible to introduce other, equally important distinctions aside from a sliding scale of attitudes so that magick isn't always "in-between" the other two philosophies? As long as they are positioned in a ladder, it will be hard to avoid giving the impression that they are alignments, or defined as much by the actions of the other factions as they are of themselves.

Alternatively, if we have to stick with libertarianism, could we make it so that you only lose affinity/professions if you try to go up the scale into more heavily forbidding philosophies? So you could have bard/druid/mage in demonic without problems, or a ranger/templar/priest in magick, but trying to take a mage into Antioch will cost affinity and prevent selection of other classes? 

5. Explain how magick works.

It's magick, it is not real. I do not want to do the Star Wars thing and explain that is it a chemical in the body or equally lame. That is looking too far into it. It is magick! Ooooooeeerrr.

Surely there's a difference though between explaining how it works, and explaining why something is magick and why something isn't? 

From an objective perspective, priests and templars are magical. Pretty much all the demonic professions are magical. Imperian says that, sure, they might be using magical powers, but they're not using "magickal" powers. Doesn't there have to a rather good explanation about why that one extra character is enough to spawn thousands of years of conflict?

Khizan

Enryk said:

Alternatively, if we have to stick with libertarianism, could we make it so that you only lose affinity/professions if you try to go up the scale into more heavily forbidding philosophies? So you could have bard/druid/mage in demonic without problems, or a ranger/templar/priest in magick, but trying to take a mage into Antioch will cost affinity and prevent selection of other classes? 

No.

We can't.

RPishly, it makes sense, I will grant you, but the limitations on this are a straight up mechanical necessity. It -used- to be this way, and this is how it went.

Anti-magick had only its innate in-circle resources.

Magick had all of its innate in-circle resources AND access to all of AM's resources.

Demonic had all of its innate in-circle resources AND access to all of Magick's AND access to all of AM's.

Recently, in the Hammer of the Gods event, Kinsarmar went up against the combined strength of the world, and it made me realize just how badly I do NOT miss those days. Going up against a Noctusari/Monk ranged offense combination while clerics shielded them against our attacks and having to charge into vibes/rites/ents all at once? It was insane and awful and it is utterly impossible to balance, and that's not even considering cross-class buffing.

Enryk

@Khizan I agree, I would vastly prefer three independently unique philosophies rather than nested subsets along a permissiveness scale.

@Svorai to avoid debate in the other thread - Aryana's Spring seems like one of the most clearly magical objects in the game. Certainly I don't know of any real bodies of water that have mystical healing energies and can resurrect the dead, let alone instantly change one species into another. I get an in-character fudge could be to pretend its white magic instead of blue magic, but its hard to argue it as non magical. It appears after magick infuses aetherius, it is linked to the moon's, all the ducks line up!

Jeremy Saunders

Maybe it was created and empowered by a god? It could be a lot of non magickal things.

Gurn

@Enryk I think your view of what magic is versus what magick is in the actual game is different.


Supernatural effects are not strictly magickal in nature. This includes things like the moons, an everburning gate in Antioch, Aryana's Spring, certain entrances and exits to areas. Those things can be powered by other means, whether it be spiritual power or Diachaim or some unknown, yet undiscovered power.

Simply, just because it's supernatural does not make it magickal in nature. There are many power sources in Aetherius, and magick is just one of them.

Kalon

Jeremy said:

5. Explain how magick works.

It's magick, it is not real. I do not want to do the Star Wars thing and explain that is it a chemical in the body or equally lame. That is looking too far into it. It is magick! Ooooooeeerrr.

My only issue with this is that there's already a lot of material out there in help files, events, and area quests that explains this, it's just not terribly cohesive. The game history clearly states that magick did not exist in the beginning of the world, and the shattering of the moons at the beginning of the second age had something to do with its appearance. However, Eloweth's nexus and the Ruins of n'Aryanvella have different origin stories for at least two other branches of mortal magick, and then there are other oddities hanging out there like the Language of Creation, which aren't clearly defined on the magick spectrum at all (when the gods used it to create the world magick did not yet exist, but now it's viewed as magickal?).

It's not so much that we want a 100 page thesis on the nature and metaphysics of magic, as it is that we want to know which of the stories already out there are true. 

Jeremy said:

1. All Magick is dangerous and must be avoided. 

2. Magick is fine, but must be used with caution. Some magicks are dangerous and should not be used.

3. All forms of Magick are acceptable.

I'm just concerned that this places Magick in a somewhat untenable position; Anti-magick and Demonic are clearly opposed in this confict and both have well-defined goals. Magick, however, exists in some weird limbo between the two that is murky at best.

One of the cool things about magick in this setting is that there seem to be a plurality of sources from which it is drawn (see my first point from this post). However, the tradeoff for this is that the magick circle is forced to examine each individual instance of magick on a case by case basis to assess whether or not it falls into the category of the "some magicks" that are dangerous. While there are definitely a lot of cool opportunities for RP with that concept, there are a lot more opportunities for stupid in-fighting every time an event evokes some unique magickal effect, like trying to steal one of the suns away from Baar, causing an intra-circle war that lasts IG decades. 

This is made worse by the fact that time and time again, in-game history has proven that all magicks are dangerous, and even the ones Magick deems safe to employ end up blowing up in their faces. In any type of in-game debate, the Magick circle is susceptible to arguments from experience from both sides of the fence, and we end up coming across as people who refuse to commit on the issue one way or the other, contemptible only for our historic ineptitude. 

As for a solution for this problem, I'd say that Magick just needs some rallying point to serve as a focus for their use of magick. Rather than being ideologues like Anti-magick and Demonick, make them pragmatists who believe that magick is merely an inarguable fact of life, no more mutable than the laws of physics and just as unworthy of philosophical debate, then give them some Great Undertaking that requires the use of magick to complete (though for this to work, there needs to be something that magick can do that diachaim cannot, which doesn't currently seem to be the case). 

It doesn't matter what the undertaking is, as long as it's something that both Kinsarmar and Celidon can agree upon and is open-ended enough that it will never be 'finished'. It could be exploring and studying the nature of magick, trying to stabilize the flows of magick across the planes so that there are no more weird and unpredictable swells that wreak havoc on the world, or building a giant deathray portal to Rashirmir that will swallow Stavenn and Antioch whole. Anything works, as long as Magick ends up with a rallying cry that's more motivating than "For Magick... but stop, wait, are we really sure that this is the kind of magick we should be endorsing?"

Khizan

Jeremy said:

5. Explain how magick works.

It's magick, it is not real. I do not want to do the Star Wars thing and explain that is it a chemical in the body or equally lame. That is looking too far into it. It is magick! Ooooooeeerrr.

I don't want to know how magick works in terms of midiwhatsits or whatnot.

All I want to know is that differentiates Magick from the myriad other supernatural abilities in the game that are -not- Magick. Things like shard powers, aspect powers, tattoos, devotion. Why is it magickal when a Runeguard sketches a rune to make a shield effect, but not when a templar calls upon his powers?

Things like that would be nice to have cleared up. 

Taqja

I prefer to treat the Spring as though once upon a time Lord God Boss Avasyu had an appendectomy and decided to throw the medical waste to Aetherius. Where the appendix struck, the Spring arose, and voila, it cures all except appendicitis. Fortunately, @Garryn tracked down that appendix bug and so nobody ever actually is afflicted with appendicitis. But the power of the Lord God Boss remains.

(May the Lord God Boss strike me down for being off-topic and totally unhelpful, but I generally tend to think of non-magick things that way -- distinguished, of course, from being anti-magick because of its lack of association with any specific circle.)

Aleutia

All I can manage in response to that is 'ewwwwww'

Jeremy Saunders

Right I am with you on wanting to know what items/skills/locations are magickal vs what powers come from other sources and what are the sources (as in what powers AM and the sketching stuff you mentioned).

I just mean I so not want to explain magick is happening because so and so reacts with X and that combines with the floating foam of Y and that makes magick amazing!

So yes, we need a better explanation about magick (and non magick stuff). Adding that to my list.

edit - Wow, I just reread, that was a rambling idiotic post. I am too lazy to change it though.

Enryk

Fundamentally, I think either magick has to be clearly distinguishable from non-magick without convoluted explanations, or it should be restyled into a *type* of magic that is somehow quite separate to all the other magics, and ditch the whole 'its so powerful its dangerous' line.

I think both magick and demonic need to have clear areas in which they alone have capability - there has to be something only those powers can do that could possibly justify the risks and disadvantages that they convey. For example, magick alone has the powers of Life and Creation that can generate new creatures, awaken the natural world and spellweave healing and protection enchantments. Demonic are the only ones though with mastery of death, Undeath and Destruction - and this additional power is the reason they are willing to contract with devils.

Without this corresponding power in exchange for the consequences, both factions end up seeming like either fools or cartoon villains, matched against the only rational viewpoint - anti-magick. Further, if you also get to play magical classes like priest or templar, but pay no rp price in terms of possible harm to the world, then clearly there is a huge imbalance that needs addressing. It would be like a world in which alchemy is a forbidden art and everyone hunts the dangerous potion-lovers for their artificial stimulants, but those anti-alchemists do so while drinking *elixirs* that give almost exactly the same benefits. Saying a potion is completely different to an elixir because they originate from different places and have slightly different backstories is all well and good, but as a player, the cognitive dissonance required to accept the contradiction is going to seriously detract from my immersion.

I know I apparently don't *get* Imperian's magick, but that's how it seems to me at the moment.

Lionas

The major distinguishing factor, at the moment, is not the abilities that are earned, but the source of the power.

Enryk

@Lionas yep, so in my potion/elixir analogy, it would be like the fundamental conflict of the game being driven by the fact potions are made with minerals, and elixirs with plants - even though what they do is essentially the same. It doesn't make a lot of objective sense - why not just use elixirs and get all the benefits for mone of the cost?

Kalon

Lionas said:

The major distinguishing factor, at the moment, is not the abilities that are earned, but the source of the power.

But both pure and demonic magics have a variety of sources. Desecration and Enslavery share as much in common with each other as they do with Naturebinding and Artistry. As it stands, the Magick circle alone has to ponder every new apparent source of power and pass judgement on whether or not it is 'dangerous', but they have no valid metric to do this beyond looking at what demonic is doing and choosing the opposite. 

However, the problem with this is that if Avasyu's definition stands and Demonic just thinks all magic is acceptable with no other defining features, then we are still just arbitrarily drawing lines for the sake of justifying mechanics.

Gurn

I wonder if there could be some added thing-- Like, regular magick can be learned by everyone, harness natural magickal energies blah blah and something like demonic has to do something extra to get their power. Kind of cliched with the whole blood magic sort of thing, but still, I think the reason for that is that something like that draws a clear line in the sand.

Ahkan

Kalon said:

However, the problem with this is that if Avasyu's definition stands and Demonic just thinks all magic is acceptable with no other defining features, then we are still just arbitrarily drawing lines for the sake of justifying mechanics.

I'm better at defining my role than he is.  This isn't meant as an insult. I'm ecstatic we're keeping access to the demonic realm. I think it's a solid move and keeps a lot of roleplays in demonic anchored, while allowing new options to develop. I really enjoy the big ideas and the much needed forward progress the game is enjoying.

Just going to add this here:

The biggest problem Imperian has is that this whole debate about godliness is taking place on the forums and not the game.

P.S. Olanre > Nemesis. It never occurred to Nemesis to try and eat the demons. Scrub.

Devim

Ok I may be off base but from my understanding for definitions of magick, AM, and demonic are some thing like this.

Magick- Defined by use of magicks that come from nature and/or the elemental planes ie. natural giant crystal of ruin the fun of everyone, fashioning an elemental staff that shoots fireworks, attuning to nature and becoming ab it thing that likes to melt brains, or using your voice to play with I'm not sure but not gods or demons

AM- Defined by we hate everyone else because they can..... Also old testament of the gods and their powers derive from the divine plane or their own abilities ie devotion drawing on their plane, calling seraphs to do stuff, mental ability to mess up your mind, or just punching you in the head til you die

Demonic- Defined by hey we are going to do what we want when we are given the chance to do it and draw their power from Demonic plane and just using unreasonably brutal styles that no one else think should be used because they are cruel/dangerous ie Summoning demons, throwing glitter on everything, corrupting an entire forest, and that fancy instakill... also when I said fancy I meant something akin to freddy krueger style of killing

Like I said I may be off base but if im not hope this helps.

Enryk

Gurn said:

I wonder if there could be some added thing-- Like, regular magick can be learned by everyone, harness natural magickal energies blah blah and something like demonic has to do something extra to get their power. Kind of cliched with the whole blood magic sort of thing, but still, I think the reason for that is that something like that draws a clear line in the sand.

That's fine, but it still runs into the problem of not explaining why magick is so great and terrible that it's a danger, while other powers that are just as fantastically magical are not.

I'd prefer that there be some sort of fundamental lore reason why each circle is absolutely anathema to the other two, that doesn't need to rely on irrational logic and prejudice (well, at least not solely on it). How about:

• Magick Circle - Have developed an affinity through study or aptitude that allows them to tap into the Ichayra energies through the natural world. This can either be drawing on the fundamental elements that form the physical environment, or on the living manifestations of Ichayra that are the flora and fauna of Aetherius and its forests, plains and deserts. Inequedra is the symbolic representation of this creative, regenerative power of Life and the world. It has no power over death (having passed beyond the physical realm of life). Sole domains - natural world.
  
  
• Demonic Circle - Rely upon demonic gifts either willingly given or forcibly taken from the demonic plane, which allows them to access Ichayra energies through the wild and free demon entities. These contracts allow practitioners to draw on power through the demons and spirits that exist independently of the natural world, seizing their own destinies and living out a frighteningly diverse plethora of goals and pleasures. It has little power over living things, as the demonic realm is not bound by nature's laws and thus not connected to it. Sole domains - death, undeath, chaos.
  
  
• Anti-magick Circle - Access Ichayra energies through a new spiritual plane that no mortal can actually enter, instead they believe only immortals should be able to divert the River's flow. Instead of rites and powers, they rely on the insights given to them by the mystical Immortals to construct incredibly complex devices and engineering (and sometimes natural selective breeding), and through these tools are able to temporarily dampen the manifestation of Ichayra in the physical world. While they lack flashy magics of their own, their fierce determination and faith in the inner potential of each mortal without need of Ichayra drives them to a greatness all of their own. Sole domains: spirituality, engineering-of-some-kind, dampening.
  

Eusto

I think it's very unlikely that the entire lore of the game will be redefined around a side area, no matter how fantastic that area is. It's impractical and irresponsible to attempt to completely retcon our foundational history Artifice-style. All we can do is focus on the future evolution of the circles. But I do want to speak to one part of your post:

That's fine, but it still runs into the problem of not explaining why magick is so great and terrible that it's a danger, while other powers that are just as fantastically magical are not.

Something Imperian did a great job of early on was defining the instability and danger of magick-with-a-k (that is, the magical power that came with the moons and the overall release of magick to the world.). Things like smithing metals being ruined by a rogue mage emphasized the danger of meddling in this new hoodoo. The god-given powers and demonic magics were at that point relatively well-known, if not well-understood, but the moon juice was a wild unknown, much like our spores and shards are now.

Enryk

@Eusto I don't think it would be a retcon of history, just taking advantage of the shakeup from the death of the gods to find a slightly new direction. Replace 'Ichayra energies' with 'Diachaim' if the former is too obscure. The meaning remains much the same either way, I just like the imagery and symbolism that Inequedra adds to it.

Also, in relation to the moon juice, didn't magick come first, and demonic contact after? There was never a time that magick was more strange and new than demonics, which I thought was actually just dark magick - presumably a little bit of moon juice mixed with a shot of demon liquor to make an entirely new brew. :P

Gurn

Okay, no offence, but you're a little hung up on Ichayra. While it's cool and you can definitely make a cool cult/sect about it, and even play it off that it's where you believe magick comes from and all that, everything you've suggested about everything/anything has been about that, and honestly, as mentioned before, basing the entire game around some small part of Imperian added in later isn't really going to work.