I'm sorry but lol. Have you ever played deathknight? In 1v1 vs anyone with half a brain, its basically timebomb or bust. Saying "tablet aside" totally flips the script on what a toxin offense is between the two for 1v1. The point is not, "Lolskillsets different", it's that EVEN WITHOUT TABLETS OR OTHER SKILLS pure sabrework with proper toxins will be able to lock down a Hunter while forwarding your kill.
Vs DK, my answer is the same as apparently close to the one people use for outriders. Learn to parry. Second, learn to cure what takes just a mending instead of going blindly by resto to legs. If, somehow, they managed to quad break, see the first answer.
Magick has barely room to talk about timebomb classes with bards, anyway.
Okay, my point seems to be going over everyone's head.
The point is not what deathknight can or can't do. The point is not what Runeguard can or can't do. The point is not what Druid can or can't do.
The point is that any profession can make it very, very hard, if not nearly impossible for Hunter to pull off a kill if they know Hunter's weaknesses and attack patterns while still furthering their own kill method. The only profession that I can think of that can't really do this might be priest, and that's really only because I'm not at all quite sure what priest does nowadays.
Not everyone has entangles on demand. By the way, priest does.
Saying that DK's limb mechanics work toward hindering a Hunter's setup is wow.
And YOU are missing the point. Remember that the point is not only to survive your opponent's mechanic, but kill him. Thing that, usually, by going for an entangle to avoid burst affs, you are stopping working toward.
Also, Runeguard is probably one of the professions that could probably ignore brainmelt altogether and keep hacking at you.
Toxins used by DK while going for a limb break shuts down Hunter. Just saying. Actually, certain salve stacks would make it literally impossible for me to attack, and hitting limbs during that goes towards killing.
Every post I say that they can hinder while going for the kill. Entangles are not the only way to stop a Hunter from attacking, as everyone seems to think, and there are many, many, manyways that you can throw a Hunter's game off. One hiccup during the trigger sets and you're home free. During bloodbaths and freeforalls where it's all chaotic and no one knows what they're doing, people often manage to do these things to me and I'll be unable to pull off anything close to a brainmelt kill, but when it's 1v1 people somehow don't do these things anymore. I don't understand it.
A) Watch for what triggers they're going for, and plan accordingly. This isn't the most viable of solutions, but by highlighting it, you can get a very good sense of when Hunter momentum ramps to full.
Stop using tree tattoo. Everyone's still making that mistake.
C) Watch for opening attacks, like deaden, shock, hemotoxin. These things have very short windows of opportunities to take advantage of-- If we miss it, that means missing much of our crafted momentum with trigger.
D) Watch for when triggers go off, and look for certain afflictions. If you know certain afflictions are coming, then you know when it's safe to cure some afflictions versus others.
E) Learn to prioritize afflictions. Hunter is not a profession you can just use standard curing against. It was made when Garrynbot was here, and thus is good at taking care of standard Garrynbot. If you use standard curing, I can easily predict your exact curing pattern and gut you. If you use a custom one which prioritizes properly via triggers, then I will have a ridiculous time trying to kill you.
F) Stop going into a fight against a Hunter like any other profession. Assassins should be dropping affs that slow/disable as often as possible when the Hunter begins the snowball. Same with sabreknights. Noctu should hangedman, since they do that anyway. Predators can do a quick twinshot(you're going for timebomb limbs anyway), wardens can shortshot net or use toxins or trip, monks can hide confusion or eq slow, wardancers can just... Keep doing what they do.
That's just off the top of my head. Because of the nature of trigger, it means you will be getting those afflictions when you cure-- But because I've designed those triggers to need to go off during a specific time to fulfill a specific purpose, hindering me for even two seconds with paralyze means an extra herb in there that could set off a trigger at a really bad time for me. Or, worst comes to worst, a single shield done at the right time will make me throw my hands up in disgust and have to reset from the top.
A) Watch for what triggers they're going for, and plan accordingly. This isn't the most viable of solutions, but by highlighting it, you can get a very good sense of when Hunter momentum ramps to full. Good idea. Wait, no it isn't. You can't do anything if you're stupid. You HAVE to cure it. Same with peace. Same with impatience. You shouldn't be punished for curing these.
Stop using tree tattoo. Everyone's still making that mistake. You -have- to use a tree tattoo when a newb is button mashing peace and you -have- to cure it to hit back. That's an instant 2 mental afflictions. This is the same for stupidity.
C) Watch for opening attacks, like deaden, shock, hemotoxin. These things have very short windows of opportunities to take advantage of-- If we miss it, that means missing much of our crafted momentum with trigger. These don't matter. It's trigger that's killing people. Namely, triggering high priority afflictions you can't ignore. Peace, stupid, impatience, recklessnes.
D) Watch for when triggers go off, and look for certain afflictions. If you know certain afflictions are coming, then you know when it's safe to cure some afflictions versus others. Good idea. Wait, no it isn't. You can't do anything if you're stupid. You HAVE to cure it. Same with peace. Same with impatience. You shouldn't be punished for curing these.
E) Learn to prioritize afflictions. Hunter is not a profession you can just use standard curing against. It was made when Garrynbot was here, and thus is good at taking care of standard Garrynbot. If you use standard curing, I can easily predict your exact curing pattern and gut you. If you use a custom one which prioritizes properly via triggers, then I will have a ridiculous time trying to kill you. This is as bad of a point as A. Peace/Stupidity have to be high priority or else you can't hit back. Hitting back is the key to killing people.
F) Stop going into a fight against a Hunter like any other profession. Assassins should be dropping affs that slow/disable as often as possible when the Hunter begins the snowball. Same with sabreknights. Noctu should hangedman, since they do that anyway. Predators can do a quick twinshot(you're going for timebomb limbs anyway), wardens can shortshot net or use toxins or trip, monks can hide confusion or eq slow, wardancers can just... Keep doing what they do
This demonstrates the lack of combat understand more than A through E combined. If they can't hit you, they cannot hit you. It doesn't matter if I have transfix, hangedman and joust.
Fast knights aren't the affliction juggernaughts you think they are. Judging by how you couldn't succeed with nairat/loshre, I think it's safe to assume you don't know knight. Knights can't really disable all that well (RG's can) because of the ciguatoxin timer and the lack of shutting down outrift. If you're getting hindered by a knight, you did something wrong. Twinshot? Yeah..twinshot is like a slow knight that does no damage.. Everything else you listed doesn't progress the fight or get the hunter anywhere closer to dying. I can go afk and web you, but you're not going to die. If that's the only answer to dealing with a hunter...well..that's silly.
The reason I died to you was because I had to cure peace to 'omghindergurn' which gave me two more afflictions (from a list of stupidly useful afflictions). The next trigger was stupidity, which I had to cure if I wanted to do anything reasonable. Whelp, there's two more afflictions. Oh look, I now have four afflictions to make sure I could attack. How am I going to cure them all? *hmm* I guess I should use my tree, wait, oops. Oh look, I'm peaced again.
Every 5s. Hunter spams peace again. --This gives you two predetermined afflictions
Insert maidenhair spam here
Every other 5s. Hunter spams aconite again. - Two more predetermined afflictions
Insert maidenhair spam here
Oh shi...I wanted to fight, so I cured! I have four afflictions! Touch shield OH SHI....-two more predetermined afflictions.
The problem with hunter right now is that there's no 'good' option. If you're peaced or stupid the entire fight, you may as well not fight. If curing these afflictions is going to end up killing you, you may as well not fight. I think it's a cool mechanic, but I think all the high priority afflictions need to be removed from the triggerable list. Peace, Impatience, Stupidity. etc.
New peace is probably a little excessive - but at least on galingale it's easy to track and cure.
However there's also a 400 credit artifact that gives the affliction on a 2.x second balance - I wonder how silly that could get if you gave it to a Hunter.
I think you're missing Gurn's point entirely. Hunter combat is ridiculously fragile. If I'm not being hindered, I've stacked anywhere from 6-8 mental afflictions with hemo in around 23 seconds, 6 being enough to get a kill. That's all well and good until someone touches shield once, webs me, or starts spamming metrazol. Regardless of how good of a Hunter someone is, there's only so long(not a long time) they can keep Peace and Heroism both up. If you shield or hit me with a writhe one time, you're curing 2-3 afflictions in the time I'm iceblasting or writhing. That's enough to ruin a brainmelt. Say you shield/web at the start of the combo after the first trigger has gone off, I have the option of continuing the entire stack and hoping that I get really lucky, or I have to clear the stack and start over. You don't have to constantly hinder a Hunter, you just have to throw them off for the 2-3 seconds it takes to ruin their melt. Yes, being forced to hinder someone to prevent them from killing you is annoying, but Hunter is far from the only time-bomb class, and they're one of the few that is broken from just one or two hinders.
You suggested taking away high-priority triggers. That makes triggers pretty much useless. Hunter combat isn't throwing around random afflictions and hoping stuff goes off in the way you want. It's about knowing what order your enemy is going to be curing everything in and making sure your triggers are going off when you want them to. If you're using low-priority cures for triggers, it means the only time that trigger is going to go off is if you're cured everything important, and have caught up with my afflicting enough that low priority cures are actually coming up. The beauty of being able to trigger on high priority afflictions is that I can hit with aconite/recklessness and trigger off of the recklessness, then hit with hemotoxin/impatience and trigger of the impatience, knowing that you'll cure the recklessness first, then stupidity, then impatience in that exact order. You're not going to put off curing those things to cure heroism or masochism, and the triggers won't fire close enough together for the cooldown to prevent one of them from going off. That consistency is necessary for a Hunter to get a kill.
As far as Heroism goes, simply making it higher priority when fighting a Hunter should mostly nullify it. And I'm pretty sure that Bulwark ignores Heroism for those classes that have that option.
Regarding spamming Metrazol/Peace/etc, the entire point of a stack is to get to that magic number 6 as fast as you can then brainmelt. People try to come up with the shortest possible stack they can craft to do that, because long stacks give the enemy more time to kill you, and they also limit how much control you have over when things happen. I can tell you exactly what order you'll cure a 4 round(bal/eq) stack, but when it gets into 6-10 rounds, I have no way of knowing exactly where you will be in curing, so I can't control when triggers/etc will go off. That means that if these rounds get slowed or put off by writhing/shielding, the enemy will have cured any high-priority afflictions, and will be curing the filler afflictions that are what actually push you to getting your 6 afflictions for a melt.
Gurn's point is that few classes are as fragile as Hunters. Limb-break counters aren't reset everytime you have to raze. Health and mana don't go back up nearly as fast as afflictions are cured. And other afflictions classes can usually afflict faster than Hunters, after that initial burst is over. If you break a Hunter's first burst, they almost always have to start from scratch, since adding a trigger means they're not afflicting twice that round, toxic shock has a long cooldown, and each use of instability/insanity requires another single affliction round. Fighting Hunters isn't nearly as hard as you think, ask Ozreas how effective spamming metrazol every dsl is.
And we keep saying that not all professions have hinders on demand, specially if the first trigger includes stupidity. The attempt to use DK as an example was laughably bad. Even worse, by trying to hinder the hunter so the brainmelt is less painful, several professions also RESET their own momentum. So, it looks win-win for the Hunter either way.
How many times/languages/styles must be used so you both (users of the profession and not really in the wrong side of the profession) get it?
Also, the repeated use of noctec/startle is plain infuriating. You know who are we talking about. We might as well remove the cooldown in ciguatoxin.
Finally, triggers aren't resettable, as in, I can't remove them, like the rest of curing hindering abilities of hunter. I don't see that much of a difference with limb break. I mention it as I've been the one in two different rounds that had to ASK that they get removed eventually, instead of just in death, things that I would have expected to be addressed in the beta.
New peace is probably a little excessive - but at least on galingale it's easy to track and cure.
However there's also a 400 credit artifact that gives the affliction on a 2.x second balance - I wonder how silly that could get if you gave it to a Hunter.
You're the biggest proponent of exploit it in the wild. My bad, balance it in the wild. The kinks will work themselves out, right?
Additionally, peace has a cooldown which should be on par with ciguatoxin.
Oh, I don't terribly mind. It will be interesting to see how people reshape their priorities against wytchen and hunters. It is easy to cure, because there isn't another galingale affliction to properly get in the way of it - and with the inability to trigger an affliction off of itself, you're guaranteed at least a short pause after an herb balance to attack.
That said, if it doesn't work out it just changes the combat dynamics for a few months to a year before someone steps in and fixes it. It would not be the first nor will it be the last time that someone got balancing slightly wrong.
Finally, triggers aren't resettable, as in, I can't remove them, like the rest of curing hindering abilities of hunter. I don't see that much of a difference with limb break. I mention it as I've been the one in two different rounds that had to ASK that they get removed eventually, instead of just in death, things that I would have expected to be addressed in the beta.
I recall bringing this up after @Gurn did a "set up trigger and run" tactic on me during a monolith battle about a month ago. So I'm all for triggers going the way of hypnosis and them being dispelled when your target isn't in the same room as you for a few seconds.
I agree with Ahkan on the need for maybe a cooldown on peace, or maybe it just needs to be a smoke cure so it's not so easily spammed. Also, Noctec/Startle is pretty lame. I didn't expect it to be so effective in shardfalls, and I'm rather tired of using it, so I'm likely to move on to other ways to try and be useful in shardfalls as a class with limited team utility. Don't know if the solution would be to make Startle and other forced balance-drains not get effected by Noctec/Mabarol/Confusion/Lethargy or if instead, it should take effect the frame(can't think of a better word) after you're afflicted with it. I'd prefer the first solution, but y'all can suggest whatever to Jesse. Like trip(that I had spammed against me for several shardfalls before it got fixed), it's something that is probably a little bit unbalanced in team combat. Although, I'm not doing any real damage with it and it doesn't stop curing, so it's not of any real use in 1v1.
Things that I agree with you on aside, you're still missing the point with Hunter combat. Limb breaks and triggers are entirely different. You're not defeated when the triggers go off, and it takes at least three rounds to set them off, then another round to invoke hallucinogen if that's in your stack, and a brainmelt after that. A hinder during that period will render all of those triggers and rounds useless. If you can't make all three triggers go off, then they're of no use. You would think that having the triggers already there would speed up a Hunter getting their kill, but you usually set your cure-blocks at the same time as setting triggers, so it's not that big of a help. As an example. If you had all three triggers on you but weren't afflicted at all when I start the combo, depending on the stack, I haven't wasted your first tree, haven't set instability, haven't stung disease to waste your purge, and haven't stung shock to ensure that hemotoxin sticks for the duration. Without those cure-blocks, you're going to cure too fast for me to brainmelt.
As far as not every class having on demand hinders. I haven't seen a stack that can stick heroism or peace for the entirety of my afflicting. Every class has access to tattoos. A single shield before or after heroism is active and the stack is ruined. One or two webs during the stack and it's ruined. That doesn't happen with limb breaks, so that comparison that you throw around is completely moot. You shield a monk, he hammers then continues. You shield a knight, they raze or hammer and keep going. You shield a pred, they raze/hammer and keep going. The limbs are still as damaged as they were before. Hunters don't have that, you keep curing afflictions while we're dealing with the hinder. Also, saying that our arguments are somehow invalid because we are the hunters, rather than being in a different circle, doesn't make any sense. Does that mean that you know nothing of how to fight against a Diabolist or Wytch or Sab? No. A big part of knowing how to fight, is knowing what your enemies will do against you. I've fought both Azefel and Iluv completely ruin my combat by just shielding once towards the end of my stack. That 4 seconds of balance used to shield broke my offense, but Iluv(as Diabolist) was still able to keep up his combat pretty well because his afflicting is faster long-run than mine. He's not dependent like, a Hunter is, on that first short little burst of afflictions. Whatever class Azefel was at the time (I think Outrider or Templar) was able to keep up a strong offensive regardless of him touching shield just once to ruin my 15+ seconds of work afflicting.
Lastly. I agree that Trigger needs to work like Instability and break after being out of the room for 20 or so seconds. I thought it did. Until they fix that, if you've left the room and have a few seconds to yourself, afflict yourself with whatever you were triggered with. In all reality, it's more annoying to me than productive if you've still got triggers. I actually attempt to cleanse any prior triggers because with the 3 trigger limit and no way to know which triggers you have other than tracking off of curing(which is iffy if you have triggers on same-cure afflictions).
tl;dr: Hunter is burst. Shield, web, force writhe once and burst is ruined, Hunter has to start from scratch(or less than scratch because of Shock cooldown).
Now. Done with this thread jacking. On topic, I love Pioneering. Scout is amazing. Pursue is amazing. Locate is amazing. Haven't played with Gate yet, but I'm sure it's going to be amazing.
I actually attempt to cleanse any prior triggers because with the 3 trigger limit and no way to know which triggers you have other than tracking off of curing(which is iffy if you have triggers on same-cure afflictions).
Triggers cure in the order they are given, making tracking triggers on the same cure very easy to see. They also stay in order if given new ones without being cured. Ex - Trigger 1,2,3 are on hemo. They cure hemo twice, you put two more triggers on hemo, we'll name then 4 and 5. The new order is - 4,5,3.
Lastly. I agree that Trigger needs to work like Instability and break after being out of the room for 20 or so seconds. I thought it did. Until they fix that, if you've left the room and have a few seconds to yourself, afflict yourself with whatever you were triggered with. In all reality, it's more annoying to me than productive if you've still got triggers. I actually attempt to cleanse any prior triggers because with the 3 trigger limit and no way to know which triggers you have other than tracking off of curing(which is iffy if you have triggers on same-cure afflictions).
Yeah, I will walk out by myself, wait for the... oh, just 60 seconds that will allow to attack myself with... which toxin is that gives peace? Maybe ACTINIUM!
I'm so sorry for your carefully designed offense that has to be restarted. I'm quite more sorry for my own *****, wasted offense.
Care to read the first sentence again, the part where I said I agree that it needs changed? Also, why the hell can't people argue about something without all the attitude. Say why you disagree without all the snarky little jabs. It's not necessary, doesn't help your argument, and it gets old so quick.
Apparently, it helps get the point across to some people. One has to work with the available resources.
Peace is just the easiest case I could use. There are several other afflictions that aren't that common to get by that are triggerable.
No, as we've talked about before, there's no reason for people to be sneering and insulting people during the course of a discussion. That's just being a dick-- it doesn't 'help get the point across'.
Don't be over sensitive when people use colorful in your face examples. As @Labil said, that's the only thing some people can see. If he were to keep a monotone sense of things when counter arguing your points, you would never feel like you were on the wrong side of things. Not saying any one person was right or wrong, just that without colorful anecdotes most discussions will keep repeating the same three to five sentences over and over, and no one wants that.
I love that all of a sudden the Stavenn/Khandavan people could start a conversation about quantum mechanics and moreso astrophyscis. That was amazing. Moar!
Apparently, it helps get the point across to some people. One has to work with the available resources.
Peace is just the easiest case I could use. There are several other afflictions that aren't that common to get by that are triggerable.
No, as we've talked about before, there's no reason for people to be sneering and insulting people during the course of a discussion. That's just being a dick-- it doesn't 'help get the point across'.
Sure it does.
Where do you live where it doesn't?
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
I love that all of a sudden the Stavenn/Khandavan people could start a conversation about quantum mechanics and moreso astrophyscis. That was amazing. Moar!
We also had a literature discussion! We are so well-educated!
Comments
Magick has barely room to talk about timebomb classes with bards, anyway.
The point is not what deathknight can or can't do. The point is not what Runeguard can or can't do. The point is not what Druid can or can't do.
Saying that DK's limb mechanics work toward hindering a Hunter's setup is wow.
And YOU are missing the point. Remember that the point is not only to survive your opponent's mechanic, but kill him. Thing that, usually, by going for an entangle to avoid burst affs, you are stopping working toward.
Also, Runeguard is probably one of the professions that could probably ignore brainmelt altogether and keep hacking at you.
But then, everyone loves theorycrafting.
A) Watch for what triggers they're going for, and plan accordingly. This isn't the most viable of solutions, but by highlighting it, you can get a very good sense of when Hunter momentum ramps to full.
D) Watch for when triggers go off, and look for certain afflictions. If you know certain afflictions are coming, then you know when it's safe to cure some afflictions versus others.
E) Learn to prioritize afflictions. Hunter is not a profession you can just use standard curing against. It was made when Garrynbot was here, and thus is good at taking care of standard Garrynbot. If you use standard curing, I can easily predict your exact curing pattern and gut you. If you use a custom one which prioritizes properly via triggers, then I will have a ridiculous time trying to kill you.
F) Stop going into a fight against a Hunter like any other profession. Assassins should be dropping affs that slow/disable as often as possible when the Hunter begins the snowball. Same with sabreknights. Noctu should hangedman, since they do that anyway. Predators can do a quick twinshot(you're going for timebomb limbs anyway), wardens can shortshot net or use toxins or trip, monks can hide confusion or eq slow, wardancers can just... Keep doing what they do.
That's just off the top of my head. Because of the nature of trigger, it means you will be getting those afflictions when you cure-- But because I've designed those triggers to need to go off during a specific time to fulfill a specific purpose, hindering me for even two seconds with paralyze means an extra herb in there that could set off a trigger at a really bad time for me. Or, worst comes to worst, a single shield done at the right time will make me throw my hands up in disgust and have to reset from the top.
Good idea. Wait, no it isn't. You can't do anything if you're stupid. You HAVE to cure it. Same with peace. Same with impatience. You shouldn't be punished for curing these.
You -have- to use a tree tattoo when a newb is button mashing peace and you -have- to cure it to hit back. That's an instant 2 mental afflictions. This is the same for stupidity.
These don't matter. It's trigger that's killing people. Namely, triggering high priority afflictions you can't ignore. Peace, stupid, impatience, recklessnes.
D) Watch for when triggers go off, and look for certain afflictions. If you know certain afflictions are coming, then you know when it's safe to cure some afflictions versus others.
Good idea. Wait, no it isn't. You can't do anything if you're stupid. You HAVE to cure it. Same with peace. Same with impatience. You shouldn't be punished for curing these.
E) Learn to prioritize afflictions. Hunter is not a profession you can just use standard curing against. It was made when Garrynbot was here, and thus is good at taking care of standard Garrynbot. If you use standard curing, I can easily predict your exact curing pattern and gut you. If you use a custom one which prioritizes properly via triggers, then I will have a ridiculous time trying to kill you.
This is as bad of a point as A. Peace/Stupidity have to be high priority or else you can't hit back. Hitting back is the key to killing people.
F) Stop going into a fight against a Hunter like any other profession. Assassins should be dropping affs that slow/disable as often as possible when the Hunter begins the snowball. Same with sabreknights. Noctu should hangedman, since they do that anyway. Predators can do a quick twinshot(you're going for timebomb limbs anyway), wardens can shortshot net or use toxins or trip, monks can hide confusion or eq slow, wardancers can just... Keep doing what they do
Fast knights aren't the affliction juggernaughts you think they are. Judging by how you couldn't succeed with nairat/loshre, I think it's safe to assume you don't know knight. Knights can't really disable all that well (RG's can) because of the ciguatoxin timer and the lack of shutting down outrift. If you're getting hindered by a knight, you did something wrong. Twinshot? Yeah..twinshot is like a slow knight that does no damage.. Everything else you listed doesn't progress the fight or get the hunter anywhere closer to dying. I can go afk and web you, but you're not going to die. If that's the only answer to dealing with a hunter...well..that's silly.
Every 5s. Hunter spams peace again. --This gives you two predetermined afflictions
Ahkan addressed most points. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
You suggested taking away high-priority triggers. That makes triggers pretty much useless. Hunter combat isn't throwing around random afflictions and hoping stuff goes off in the way you want. It's about knowing what order your enemy is going to be curing everything in and making sure your triggers are going off when you want them to. If you're using low-priority cures for triggers, it means the only time that trigger is going to go off is if you're cured everything important, and have caught up with my afflicting enough that low priority cures are actually coming up. The beauty of being able to trigger on high priority afflictions is that I can hit with aconite/recklessness and trigger off of the recklessness, then hit with hemotoxin/impatience and trigger of the impatience, knowing that you'll cure the recklessness first, then stupidity, then impatience in that exact order. You're not going to put off curing those things to cure heroism or masochism, and the triggers won't fire close enough together for the cooldown to prevent one of them from going off. That consistency is necessary for a Hunter to get a kill.
As far as Heroism goes, simply making it higher priority when fighting a Hunter should mostly nullify it. And I'm pretty sure that Bulwark ignores Heroism for those classes that have that option.
Regarding spamming Metrazol/Peace/etc, the entire point of a stack is to get to that magic number 6 as fast as you can then brainmelt. People try to come up with the shortest possible stack they can craft to do that, because long stacks give the enemy more time to kill you, and they also limit how much control you have over when things happen. I can tell you exactly what order you'll cure a 4 round(bal/eq) stack, but when it gets into 6-10 rounds, I have no way of knowing exactly where you will be in curing, so I can't control when triggers/etc will go off. That means that if these rounds get slowed or put off by writhing/shielding, the enemy will have cured any high-priority afflictions, and will be curing the filler afflictions that are what actually push you to getting your 6 afflictions for a melt.
Gurn's point is that few classes are as fragile as Hunters. Limb-break counters aren't reset everytime you have to raze. Health and mana don't go back up nearly as fast as afflictions are cured. And other afflictions classes can usually afflict faster than Hunters, after that initial burst is over. If you break a Hunter's first burst, they almost always have to start from scratch, since adding a trigger means they're not afflicting twice that round, toxic shock has a long cooldown, and each use of instability/insanity requires another single affliction round. Fighting Hunters isn't nearly as hard as you think, ask Ozreas how effective spamming metrazol every dsl is.
How many times/languages/styles must be used so you both (users of the profession and not really in the wrong side of the profession) get it?
Also, the repeated use of noctec/startle is plain infuriating. You know who are we talking about. We might as well remove the cooldown in ciguatoxin.
Finally, triggers aren't resettable, as in, I can't remove them, like the rest of curing hindering abilities of hunter. I don't see that much of a difference with limb break. I mention it as I've been the one in two different rounds that had to ASK that they get removed eventually, instead of just in death, things that I would have expected to be addressed in the beta.
Additionally, peace has a cooldown which should be on par with ciguatoxin.
Things that I agree with you on aside, you're still missing the point with Hunter combat. Limb breaks and triggers are entirely different. You're not defeated when the triggers go off, and it takes at least three rounds to set them off, then another round to invoke hallucinogen if that's in your stack, and a brainmelt after that. A hinder during that period will render all of those triggers and rounds useless. If you can't make all three triggers go off, then they're of no use. You would think that having the triggers already there would speed up a Hunter getting their kill, but you usually set your cure-blocks at the same time as setting triggers, so it's not that big of a help. As an example. If you had all three triggers on you but weren't afflicted at all when I start the combo, depending on the stack, I haven't wasted your first tree, haven't set instability, haven't stung disease to waste your purge, and haven't stung shock to ensure that hemotoxin sticks for the duration. Without those cure-blocks, you're going to cure too fast for me to brainmelt.
As far as not every class having on demand hinders. I haven't seen a stack that can stick heroism or peace for the entirety of my afflicting. Every class has access to tattoos. A single shield before or after heroism is active and the stack is ruined. One or two webs during the stack and it's ruined. That doesn't happen with limb breaks, so that comparison that you throw around is completely moot. You shield a monk, he hammers then continues. You shield a knight, they raze or hammer and keep going. You shield a pred, they raze/hammer and keep going. The limbs are still as damaged as they were before. Hunters don't have that, you keep curing afflictions while we're dealing with the hinder. Also, saying that our arguments are somehow invalid because we are the hunters, rather than being in a different circle, doesn't make any sense. Does that mean that you know nothing of how to fight against a Diabolist or Wytch or Sab? No. A big part of knowing how to fight, is knowing what your enemies will do against you. I've fought both Azefel and Iluv completely ruin my combat by just shielding once towards the end of my stack. That 4 seconds of balance used to shield broke my offense, but Iluv(as Diabolist) was still able to keep up his combat pretty well because his afflicting is faster long-run than mine. He's not dependent like, a Hunter is, on that first short little burst of afflictions. Whatever class Azefel was at the time (I think Outrider or Templar) was able to keep up a strong offensive regardless of him touching shield just once to ruin my 15+ seconds of work afflicting.
Lastly. I agree that Trigger needs to work like Instability and break after being out of the room for 20 or so seconds. I thought it did. Until they fix that, if you've left the room and have a few seconds to yourself, afflict yourself with whatever you were triggered with. In all reality, it's more annoying to me than productive if you've still got triggers. I actually attempt to cleanse any prior triggers because with the 3 trigger limit and no way to know which triggers you have other than tracking off of curing(which is iffy if you have triggers on same-cure afflictions).
tl;dr: Hunter is burst. Shield, web, force writhe once and burst is ruined, Hunter has to start from scratch(or less than scratch because of Shock cooldown).
Now. Done with this thread jacking. On topic, I love Pioneering. Scout is amazing. Pursue is amazing. Locate is amazing. Haven't played with Gate yet, but I'm sure it's going to be amazing.
I'm so sorry for your carefully designed offense that has to be restarted. I'm quite more sorry for my own *****, wasted offense.
Brilliant.
Peace is just the easiest case I could use. There are several other afflictions that aren't that common to get by that are triggerable.
Also, doing an assignment an hour before (because I forgot) and acing it completely. I really heart that.
Where do you live where it doesn't?
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”