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Retirement Value Re: Changes to Imperian

OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
edited July 2018 in General Discussion
@Sarapis and @Jeremy have made it very clear they will not cave on increasing the return on retirement,
or change retirement to allow credits to move to existing players. This was given no satisfactory 
answer in the relevant forum thread and the question was diverted to 'read the forums' and 'e-mail 
me' during the townhall, neither of which demonstrate a sincere willingness to listen to or respond 
to the opinions of the playerbase, especially when several people discussing the problem were banned.

I personally do not believe that they intend to change their decision, but I am also extremely
dissatisfied with the blanketed response of 'Imperian isn't closing' to justify circumventing the 
conversation in a public setting and dodge the opinions of those who do not frequent the forums. I 
made this thread to open up the conversation among us without diverting attention from those with 
more optimistic questions and opinions.

I speak for myself in stating that I feel these changes reduce the value of my character greatly,
especially since I personally do not want to participate in the transition of the game and would 
expect to see more than 50% of my current value placed elsewhere in the company in light of these 
changes. I am confused about the administration's unwillingness to allow me to make that choice and 
especially their locking of retirement value well before anything but enthusiasm and optimism have 
been offered in response.
 You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."

Comments

  • OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    I am posting this for @Sarrius, since he has been banned from the forums;

    Sarrius-Today at 4:55 PM

    can someone tag Sarapis
    and ask him for a thought out reply asking why they have not yet considered a change in policy for how Retirement can be distributed?
    Just be kind and state you would like to know for no other reason than to understand why you are in a predicament where you feel screwed
    and be clear that you don't care about the kissing of boo boos and all that ****
    you just want to know why IRE is so tight fisred[sic] about something that ultimately would make happier players
     You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 169 ✭✭✭
    MKO was given full value because it closed down completely.

    Imperian is keeping its 50% value because it's not closing down, so you're not actually losing anything. Jeremy's already stated he was looking into adding promotional items to retirement value, since that's really the only monetary investment you'd be losing out on. Not really sure there's anything else to add to the matter.

    This may sound aggressive to ask, but I am genuinely curious... Why do you think they should increase the amounts? Your comment about 'decreasing the character's value' isn't actually true.
    image
    Wyll
  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    All the IREs have experienced massive change at one point or another, and yet in none of those cases were players given 100% refund even if they did not agree with the change. This is no different.

    Achaea closed off a whole city, guilds, organizations. Even ones which seemed so necessary for the Achaea story. No one was given full refunds.

    Aetolia was the same, particularly during that time people have pointed out in the other thread, when the game seemed so hopeless. Things were shaken up, changed, and no one was given a full refund even if they didn't like the change.

    The only case of full refund was MKO, and that's because it closed down, completely. This is not the case with Imperian. Your investments are not made less; in fact, they're worth more. You had the opporunity to beef up your characters by whipping out a wallet. Everyone else from this point can only grind to catch up.


    currently tentatively active
    (may vanish for periods of time)
    Sarapis
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    I'd like to point to my post on ToS in the other thread, which dicusses what -reasonable- negotiations about a major customer concern might look like (and also does allow that, of course, customers can be genuinely unreasonable sometimes).  

    I hope that people have long memories about what's happened here.  I think I will, even though I am a pretty forgetful person.

    What IRE is doing right now is rational within the context of their experience though.  Take those snark-posts from Aysari, and multiply and amplify them across the number of people who dare speak on an IRE game forum, and that's what the discussion we've had over the last day or so -would- have looked like.  We'd have been crushed under the weight of posts by people who... drink some sort of Koolaid I guess we just had less of here, somehow. Just the fact that a good number of us aren't accepting whatever reply is given and saying "thank you, benevolent master", is somehow akin to blasphemy to a certain portion of IRE players, and allows IRE to not only do the sort of thing they're doing right now - but they'd generally also be congratulated for doing it.   

    That something else has happened this time, is fairly amazing, and a huge exception to the rule.  

    EDIT:  as well, at some point, if you -don't- shut a game down, because it's "free" to run, and you give your players the choice to "play this game that isn't really very playable, but at least you can log on?" or "lose half the value of your license", how is that somehow better than shutting down from a player perspective?  I don't get that.  
  • OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    The value of my credit purchases has been decreasing for as long as the game has been in decline. Monetary value? Not really, since it costs the same to trans a skill or buy artifacts. But when I no longer want to use the credits to play the game that value does not exist. Up until this point I was able to patiently wait to do trades for credit purchases, thus retaining some worth in staying in Imperian even if I am completely inactive. That option being eliminated absolutely reduces the value of my credits - monetarily and in their perceived worth. The financial investment I made is officially being gated off 1. unless I eat half of my investment ($ and in-game time/promos, etc, not to mention customisation, house purchases, etc) and 2. unless I appropriate that investment in a brand new character in a different game.

    I'm not asking for 100% and as I said in my opening post I really don't expect more than they're already offering. If Imperian closed that would be different, but Imperian isn't doing that and judging by these changes it never will. But it is wildly changing its economic system to something untrusted and untested, and it is perfectly reasonable to allow its customers to buy-out of this new system if they do not want to or intend to participate in it, especially when the majority of people wanting this option are willing to take a loss to do so. And especially considering we are largely people who have stuck around a dead Imperian this long asking for this, it should be a big tell to the company about the inspiration and confidence their playerbase has lost in them. I'd personally be fine with 50% if I could use it on a character I've established and spent money on in a game I trust to be well-managed.

    Equally importantly, the loss I accept will benefit IRE. Me making up for it will benefit IRE. Me playing my Aetolian more will benefit IRE. Her being able to PK instead of me ABSOLUTELY buying the bare minimum will benefit IRE. Me feeling I can trust the company to protect my investment will benefit IRE. IRE loses literally nothing by changing retirement, except to let people who feel trapped in Imperian leave it without feeling like they got played. 
     You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
  • OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Something of this magnitude has never been performed by IRE before. This isn't just 'delete guilds/create houses', this is directly impacting credits that people have directly invested real money into. The terms of service may well address that the value of a credit fluctuates because of the way the game's economy works, but that's not what's happening here. They, the company, are specifically changing the economy of the game's meta and removing the monetary value of credits, all while wildly restricting one's ability to access the paper money that was literally spent. All entirely to their own benefit with no reasonable justification given. 

    Edit: re: @Swale the fact that we are able to be such a vocal majority is also the point. This was literally the first question asked at the townhall, asked by @Wyll who is without a doubt one of Imperian's highest buyers and who doesn't even come on the forums anymore to have these concerns planted in his mind by us. When six people's concerns accounts for so much of your playerbase it speaks directly to the root of the issue. 

    This is me agreeing with you. Nobody would dream of asking this in a different game because that different game isn't in Imperian's position, whether through its numbers, its reputation among its players, or through its necessity to change the entire credit and gold generating process. 
     You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    Agreed, @Oystir, there has never been a situation -quite- like this before, and as we discussed, I think admin is responding the way they are because in general, it absolutely works for them.  It seems strange to us (and -should- be strange within the context of a normal, healthy relationship between client and company), but the thing is, it's always kind of worked.  
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 169 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    There was nothing snarky about what I posted. If you perceived snark, then that's purely on you. The fact you felt the need to insult me only proves my point.

    As for the decreased value, I already said that's false. They're worth just as much as they have been. They can be retired / reused for just as much as they've always been able to. You just won't be able to retire to Imperian. You can still retire your character for the same amount you'd have always been able to. So there's virtually zero change in that regard.

    Perceived value, and actual value, are two different things. The former varies wildly from person to person, and largely doesn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things. The latter has been static forever.


    image
  • OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    @Admin why not let us access those retirement credits on established characters? Especially since we'll be moving them to games that will generate direct income for IRE? I genuinely do not see the benefit in keeping unhappy players stuck in a game that you intend to cut off as an investment and a revenue source. The precedent is clearly set in other games not to make exceptions to retirement, but this sort of change is unprecedented, and I'll be more than placated if I can understand the reasoning behind this decision that isn't just doing what works on other MUDs.
     You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
  • OystirOystir Member Posts: 454 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    @Aysari
    My point about credit trades being removed still stands, eliminating a 1:1 (or similar) value across games. There is also the irrefutable fact that 100 credits I bought for 40$ yesterday will be worth 50 bound credits to a different IRE game (that I trust the mechanics of but can only try out for a month!) in three weeks, or some ill-defined time investment to an Imperian-shaped game with a completely unknown economy soonTM. 

    Again, I think it was extremely premature to lock in retirement values before even posting about the volunteer lead position, much less hiring somebody, much less having a plan for Imperian's future, much less doing any work to it. From where I sit, IRE LLC is washing its hands of Imperian and giving it to the volunteers. I sincerely think that's great, I trust volunteers much more than Jeremy at this point, no offense intended to him, but I also sincerely think I am being shoved against a wall with the retirement restrictions when IRE knows it is trying something radical and forcing me to come along for the ride.
     You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 169 ✭✭✭
    But that's exactly how retirement has always functioned.

    I'm legitimately curious as to why you think it should change now. It's not as if they removed the option entirely; they're not forcing anything on you with this change. If you want to leave, you're free to. If you want to stay, you're free to and can still leave with that exact same value later on, if you decide you don't want to stick around after August 15.

    Also they haven't locked values yet. Three weeks is a long time, when it comes to what they're doing.
    image
    Mereis
  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    Oystir said:
    The financial investment I made is officially being gated off 1. unless I eat half of my investment ($ and in-game time/promos, etc, not to mention customisation, house purchases, etc) and 2. unless I appropriate that investment in a brand new character in a different game.

    Your financial investment is not being gated off. You will still have your artifacts and knick knacks. The only thing that will change is instead of money, time (grinding) will be the currency at which others can obtain them (in other words...nothing really changes).


    currently tentatively active
    (may vanish for periods of time)
  • ZophaelZophael Member Posts: 6
    It sounds like this is your first rodeo with regards to "losing" a character in a game. The value behind your character is (or should be) unreplaceable, because of the memories you've made and the friendships you have in the realms. Those these talks about folks losing money are pointless. I've dropped thousands on characters within IRE, including on one in an IRE game I don't play anymore (my choice). I could retire that character, but I'm not going to. His name, and the memories I have in that world, are priceless to me.

    Anyone who has had a character in any game they paid for (subscription services or through micro-transactions) and had that game go under knows what it feels like. When Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa, or City of Heroes closed NC Soft didn't give it's players "funds" they could potentially use in one of their other games. You sucked it up that one of your favorite games was going away, and you enjoyed the memories. 

    IRE is providing us a service they DON'T HAVE TO by allowing us to move some of the monetary value we've put into our game into their games in another form. We should be grateful we at least have this opportunity. The alternative is you get upset with the games new system and you leave, then you're out entirely. 

    If you really want to help the problem, get your friends to play Imperian, or bring other folks into the IRE community. The admins are doing what they can to keep things afloat for us. We need to do our part by sharing the experiences we have and bringing other folks into the realm. Or volunteer in the game. Do something other than complaining, that doesn't fix anything for anyone. 
    SeigSarapis
  • SarapisSarapis Administrator Posts: 28 admin
    edited July 2018
    Mereis said:
    All the IREs have experienced massive change at one point or another, and yet in none of those cases were players given 100% refund even if they did not agree with the change. This is no different.

    Achaea closed off a whole city, guilds, organizations. Even ones which seemed so necessary for the Achaea story. No one was given full refunds.

    Aetolia was the same, particularly during that time people have pointed out in the other thread, when the game seemed so hopeless. Things were shaken up, changed, and no one was given a full refund even if they didn't like the change.

    The only case of full refund was MKO, and that's because it closed down, completely. This is not the case with Imperian. Your investments are not made less; in fact, they're worth more. You had the opporunity to beef up your characters by whipping out a wallet. Everyone else from this point can only grind to catch up.


    Exactly this. Just because someone doesn't like big changes on a game doesn't entitle them to special treatment. We've never promised or even told you that you'd like everything that happens in any of our games. No publisher/developer can say that, as there's no such thing as a change everyone likes. You think some people weren't extremely pissed when autoguilding went away in Achaea? People were furious AND they had no option to retire, as retirement didn't go in for over 10 years later. That's life. When you play a game-as-a-service (like MUDs), you're not in control of what happens to the world, nor should you have any expectation that you'll be dictating to the publisher/developer what to do. That's just not how it works.

    You guys have -exactly- what you had before. You have exactly the same characters and exactly the same items in what is currently very close to exactly the same world (I say very close because possibly some typos or bugs have been fixed in the last couple days, I'm unsure offhand). You even have Dec and Eoghan continuing to take the world forward, and you can now earn -more- things in the world faster without paying than before.

    One note: not a refund in MKO's case, but 100% retirement, which also isn't at all the same thing as "you get to transfer the value you spent to another game" since what you spent is only one factor in your retirement value.
  • SarapisSarapis Administrator Posts: 28 admin
    Oystir said:
    @Admin why not let us access those retirement credits on established characters? Especially since we'll be moving them to games that will generate direct income for IRE? I genuinely do not see the benefit in keeping unhappy players stuck in a game that you intend to cut off as an investment and a revenue source. The precedent is clearly set in other games not to make exceptions to retirement, but this sort of change is unprecedented, and I'll be more than placated if I can understand the reasoning behind this decision that isn't just doing what works on other MUDs.
    Because we're not going to set a precedent that simply because some people are unhappy, they get 100% retirement. There are always people unhappy. Swale here, for instance, has never been happy in her existence on any of our games, as far as I can tell. One person's reason for being unhappy isn't any better or worse than another person's either. 

    It'd be one thing if we were taking something away, like we did with MKO. We were literally taking away everything they had paid for. Here, we're taking away nothing that people paid for and are hoping the world will actually become more lively (if even less financially viable) with the lower barrier to entry to play.

  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Zophael said:


    ... I've dropped thousands on characters within IRE...

    ...subscription services or through micro-transactions...

    If you really want to help the problem, get your friends to play Imperian, or bring other folks into the IRE community. The admins are doing what they can to keep things afloat for us. We need to do our part by sharing the experiences we have and bringing other folks into the realm. Or volunteer in the game. Do something other than complaining, that doesn't fix anything for anyone. 

    The difference is pretty much those thousands, yeah.  Thousands, and the decision not truly being ours.  This isn't a "got to play that one out real good" situation.  Imperian isn't a game we got tired of, it's a game that starved to death while the horses on the other side of the fence got plenty of hay.     

    I mean, the game is in permanent maintenance mode, my man, that's pretty clear.  No more paid staff (and was already very lightly staffed).  That's a pretty strong signal don't you think?

    That's not a "game change", that's "this poor dead horse is still alive, -technically-".  What are the players who stuck it out till the bitter end really supposed to do and think after several years of trying to hang on and make it work?

    EDIT:  in what weird world is this the "rebirth" of Imperian or something?  I mean, what?  We all just talked at length about sunsetting, and having to cut staff (to no staff!)... but now it's just a "game change" and players are somehow being sassy and unreasonable about it?   
  • SarapisSarapis Administrator Posts: 28 admin
    Swale said:

    The difference is pretty much those thousands, yeah.  Thousands, and the decision not truly being ours.  This isn't a "got to play that one out real good" situation.  Imperian isn't a game we got tired of, it's a game that starved to death while the horses on the other side of the fence got plenty of hay.     

    Flat out nonsense. As I've stated clearly,  we were spending more on Imperian to try to save it than we've ever spent on any game but Achaea. More than we've ever spent on Lusternia, more than on Aetolia, and more than on MKO. When it was clear that wasn't going to make a difference, we stopped. 
    Aysari
  • SarapisSarapis Administrator Posts: 28 admin
    Swale said:

    EDIT:  in what weird world is this the "rebirth" of Imperian or something?  I mean, what?  We all just talked at length about sunsetting, and having to cut staff (to no staff!)... but now it's just a "game change" and players are somehow being sassy and unreasonable about it?   
    We talked at length about how other companies sunset their products by killing them and how that's not what we're going to do with Imperian. We're going to give it a chance to thrive as the game with by far the lowest barrier-to-entry of all of our games. It may not thrive, but now it has a chance, whereas the alternative - shutting it down - gives it no chance and destroys the world you claim to care about so much.

  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    Setting everything else aside for a moment, let's just say that new Imperian is wildly successful, in all of the ways you'd expect of an IRE (this seems legitimately... rather unlikely without a paid staff, but let's suspend disbelief).  It's a PK powerhouse, it's got the RPs, it's got it all.  And a good chunk of players in paying games are going "hellz yeah".  I mean, how does that work for the paid games?  How could a wildly successful free Imperian -actually- co-exist with the paid IRE games if it actually came to be?  That alone gives me pause.  
  • SarapisSarapis Administrator Posts: 28 admin
    Swale said:
    Setting everything else aside for a moment, let's just say that new Imperian is wildly successful, in all of the ways you'd expect of an IRE (this seems legitimately... rather unlikely without a paid staff, but let's suspend disbelief).  It's a PK powerhouse, it's got the RPs, it's got it all.  And a good chunk of players in paying games are going "hellz yeah".  I mean, how does that work for the paid games?  How could a wildly successful free Imperian -actually- co-exist with the paid IRE games if it actually came to be?  That alone gives me pause.  
    As I've said, if Imperian became more popular, we'd look to find ways to make money off it again and if feasible paying the people running it. Most MUDs run without any paid staff, including those with larger player numbers than Achaea. I don't think not having staff is in itself an advantage by any means, but having to make money to pay staff is a disadvantage when attracting and keeping people, so maybe it's a wash, I don't know.
    AysariMereis
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Sarapis said:
    Because we're not going to set a precedent that simply because some people are unhappy, they get 100% retirement. There are always people unhappy. Swale here, for instance, has never been happy in her existence on any of our games, as far as I can tell. One person's reason for being unhappy isn't any better or worse than another person's either. 


    "having to make money to pay staff is a disadvantage when attracting and keeping people, so maybe it's a wash, I don't know".

    Well.  Sarapis.  I had to consider carefully how and if I should address this off-hander in your reply to Oystir.  I suppose the reason that people like me, and Owyn, and Tyden, and Oystir not only played, but spent... real wads of money in your games, is because you do one thing right.  You do hire some -excellent- staff at times, and, at least for a period of time, those people are the face of your games.  Not you.  Even if they're not people I ever have "face-time" with, sometimes their work just shows itself.  Sometimes you even get a bright-eyed volunteer, for free. Man, this comment from you was an absolute gem:  

    "Will development be slower? Maybe? It mostly depends on how many other community volunteers can and want to productively help I think, and don't just bail when they realize that running a MUD is hard work".  

    Non-existent as yet volunteer, already gets run over by bus (hey, there's a position open, guys).  Poor bastard.  And I mean, I don't think it's a great thing to ask an unpaid person to do the fulltime job of at least 2-3 people.  And it's equally not great to ask players to not expect that level of product support.  But I am sure we will be blamed for "being mean to volunteers" if we're not totally happy with what a guy who is working on stuff after his real job can produce.  For free. 

    Also, some people I really like play some of your games.  So there is that.  I sort of dropped that almost too casually, but some of the people you get to know are a big part of the draw.

    As for the other point, I guess we will see.  But I think an important difference is that having to pay staff might be a hindrance to attracting "people", but you certainly haven't ditched that model with Starmourn, and I think paid staff is what allows you to build and maintain the kind of game that has the elements I mentioned.  I guess an example of something that is NOT that, but has people, is something like Aardwolf, maybe.  Aardwolf had a lot of people, but they didn't seem to be doing much.  
    Post edited by Swale on
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    I don't really understand being motivated to retire post these changes. IMO, IRE's business model is a toxic sauce on a delicious mess of a burrito. Getting away from that just makes me more likely to stay when I was really one foot out before.

    What I do think is that giving a higher percentage of imaginoBucks to people who have spent thousands on one servergame would just be better all around. People who keep that weight in Imperian are going to be less likely to buy in real_IRE (example: me). It literally costs nothing except (overly) projected gains to reward those players for supporting IRE while the company was managing the servergame, and it gets those players back into a place where they might purchase creds again (I could spend 20k and still have stuff I'd want to buy). A higher retirement return will likely get more weight out of Imperian for the transition, and the people who remain will be ones who are really invested. The receiving serversgames get people with fresh faces and loads of credits to be roleplay and pk props for the other players already there (which even Achaea can use more of now with pops at half or lower of what they were when I played), and Imperian being free means those same people might try again here anyway.

    It just feels spiteful to not at least throw a cookie to the people who are expressing interest in sidegrading (whether by bending the rules or increasing the ratio), since it seems like it'd be the smart thing to do for milking them more, anyway. But nah, flex away on the disgruntled players like Imperian hasn't been sapping money and energy from them for years. You've got the market to replace them. https://hastebin.com/eqimihohul.makefile
    WyllSeig
  • WyllWyll Member Posts: 347 ✭✭✭
    Take this how you want @Sarapis and @Jeremy Saunders, because I'm ride or die with Imperian, but I'm still going to get my **** together because I really don't know what new Imperian will bring.

    However, you guys have to realize that there is a population of your playerbase that will never spend money on your games. Those are the people who are upvoting your posts and liking them and some of them have even admitted to loving this change because they could not either afford to or didn't want to spend.

    What does it cost you to give people full retirement value to move to a game where income generation for IRE is a possibility and goal? What is the damage there? Your goods are virtual and cost you nothing to reproduce past the initial labor/time to spend coding and designing the content.

    You are giving whales an opportunity to move and possibly spend elsewhere, because spending will not be an option in Imperian past Aug. 1st.

    Who are you guys trying to court at the end of the day as a commercial gaming company? People who freely admit to not spending money on your games and upvoting and agreeing with your posts or people who spend and are rightfully peeved at the lackluster responses you guys are giving?

    You guys throw this on us and initially gave us until Aug. 1st to get our **** together while not even having ironed out how we will be generating credits going forward or retirement values for promotional items, or tons of other things that were glossed over. That townhall meeting was a huge eyeopener, because it seemed like you guys haven't really worked out much at all yet. I went to it to ask questions and was directed to the forums(which I don't really follow much anymore) and or to email Jeremy.

    Remember that time you guys banned me for 'abusing the wheel'? Then reversed that decision and made a customer service oriented decision? Then remember how over the course of the following months I dropped what is essentially the monetary value of a gently used Honda on your game? I did that because you guys became my favorite gaming company by giving me the benefit of the doubt. And during the following months I saw how @Jeremy Saunders treated the playerbase and while I didn't agree with some of his decisions, he's a good producer.

    And please don't hit us back with the 'promotional items are added value bull' for retirement value, because you guys know we bought those credit packages that came with x, y, z because we wanted x, y, z and not the actual credits. The credits at that point become the added value item.

    Promotional items have a PROMO TRADEIN value to them, but not a value attached to them in ARTIFACT LIST OWNED. Yes, we can trade in the items before the cut off, but some of us actually want to keep the items because we are sticking around. We still want the retire value out of our characters should we ever make that decision to move. Normally this isn't an issue, but we have a cut off date now.

    Now real questions about retirement value below:

    1. Do you need a list of promo items that have a giant value on them but no attached value? Level 1 Artifact token for example.
    2. Will there be a value attached to the artifact items that have increasing levels? Apple bags, scepters, goggles, and amulets for example.
    You say, "Oh crap."
    You say, "My bottle is empty."
    Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
    Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
    OhmRokasMyrcellaAlvetta
  • SwaleSwale Member Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    "This change already provoked hours and hours of complaining that IRE was stealing away people's "investments" (as if it was ever a good idea in the first place to consider credit purchases or artifacts as "investments")".

    Heh...  There hasn't been THAT much of this, as I said somewhere earlier in this thread, but it's definitely there.  

    Honestly?  Since the people with low character values seem fine with losing over 50% of it and on the whole seem to think that the people who bought in big are just a little bit benighted for doing so in the first place (how silly of those "whales" to do the very thing that keeps IRE as a whole afloat, and to figure that IRE, at the end of the day, would take care of business), just take people with a minimum overall (not "retirement") "value" (say 5000 credits or something), and offer them a better deal.  

    I mean, they won't - which is why, if anyone buys big in the future, knowing what went down in Imperian, you really can say that the players should have known better.  Of course that does assume that news will trickle out sufficiently.  Hopefully it will.  If people still want to buy big, that's fine, but they should go in with eyes fully open.  It should ideally mean that IRE is forced to do the very thing it's repeatedly said it can't ever do - rely on much smaller purchases per person by having a much larger audience (and I actually agree with them on that point, I really do think their market is quite niche).  

    If your gaming company treats you like a "casual", you should keep that in mind when you spend money with them.  That's a "spare change" relationship, not a "decent car still under warranty" relationship.  That is also a legitimate relationship, but it means that actually spending serious money on an IRE starts to seem like a genuinely nutty idea (even nuttier than before, when it was just something you didn't tell people, but were secretly pretty okay with).    

    Some people being more fine with losing their investment makes a certain amount of sense - I mean, if my value were a lot less it would definitely just be a game that didn't work out you know?  I get it.  I am not going to cry when my first ever mmo (probably) closes, and I still probably dropped more cash than lots of people do in those games (maybe a couple hundred bucks, something like that).  I am more sad that it probably will close, because I think the devs did a really good job.  But anyway, even if I were a low value guy here in Imperian, I WOULD STILL TOTALLY GET WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT FINE.

    I'm also not really serious that they should stiff some guy who's only got a 500 credit retire value and give me teh 100% retirements (and/or other options that people mentioned) plz, but the amount of shade, just damn.  What the hell is wrong with people?
    Post edited by Swale on
    Rokas
  • RokasRokas Member Posts: 142 ✭✭✭
    I won't be investing in IRE again. I didn't mind being a whale because I intended to focus on the game more than I have been. Combat was an eventual goal, and even if it didn't work out, it wasn't like I wanted to go play another IRE mud. If Imperian did die and shut down, I trusted IRE to be kind and give some sort of MKO treatment with a better retirement deal as an apology. The other alternative was that I decide to retire on my own time and have as long as a time period as I wanted to sell off items, some of which are easily worth 100s of credits. 

    I should be thankful that they're not closing down the game while ALSO denying me an exit on the terms they've previously set? It's ludicrous people are upset at those of us that are unhappy with the development.

    I agree with @Gjarrus. IRE already has my money, and if they want to bet that having less imaginoBucks to take elsewhere will mean I spend more money elsewhere.... Well, they're welcome to do it, I guess. It's not like they don't have the data.
    Swale
  • SarapisSarapis Administrator Posts: 28 admin
    Rokas said:
     IRE already has my money, and if they want to bet that having less imaginoBucks to take elsewhere will mean I spend more money elsewhere....
    It's more that we're not going to set a precedent that because people are unhappy with something in a game they are entitled to get something more in another of our games. People have been unhappy with things in all of our games since the day they launched, and will be forever. That's the nature of games.

    Generally, unless we're taking something away from you, we're not going to compensate you, because you didn't lose anything.




  • AysariAysari Member Posts: 169 ✭✭✭
    Are you trying to guilt Matt into changing his mind?

    Do you like... Know Matt?
    image
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,247 admin
    Alright, I think this conversation is over with that.

    Gjarrus
This discussion has been closed.