Oh I am not. And thank you, but I definitely wasn't trying to put down myself and other PK-ers that sit in a certain spot (roughly, a spot where you're still not a true theorycrafter when it comes to PK, but you've definitely put in the work and it shows). I get very discouraged some days, but this isn't really one of those (it certainly makes it easier when you're working on a self-paced coding course). There is just a very powerful "who truly gets primary consideration in a game and why" thing at work, that I think I really do get, and I wanted to point it out as starkly as possible.
EDIT: also, I am nicer, but "come with me if you want to live" - Owyn (alternatively "come with me if you want to lift" - Browyn).
My only big ask is that if Imperian does not shut down, Iron Realms hears the pleading of their players that have taken their leave before Retirement existed.
I would like retirement to change in such a fashion that I can either get my retire value on a non-newbie or get a portion of it via an additional penalty. I feel this is a completely acceptable ask.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
The first big wave of retirements happened when there hadn't been an actual player kill in over a real life month. I took a 6 month break when that happened, and the came back with Septus. It took less than a month for people to refuse almost every attempt to fight. At a certain point I decided to take a weekend break and do other things. I literally logged into Cyr once after that break, which was to retire confirm. I've never regretted the decision to retire. I went to Achaea, and it wasn't just that there were people there, or that combat balance was better. (Both of those things are generally speaking true) It was that the vast majority of the fight didn't care if you just liked to fight and showed up to fight all the time and cause trouble, and that the story was well done and alive and moving. (Believe it or not, even for a guy that's pretty lolpk, that's a big deal) So take from that what you will.
Having a Septus and a Dyun or Khizan (and a Cyr who is no slouch himself) around unfortunately requires having at least an Owyn and say... a Sevhn around, with some solid third teammate. The Owyn and Sevhn team will be able to retool strategies quickly enough that they don't need to actually quit playing for long periods (either because they're demoralized, or because they're going to need to relearn everything from the ground up, or both). They are capable of losing a fight, or series of fights, and coming up with something that at least makes sense and is worth trying within a day, or a few days. That team might -eventually- get frustrated too, as many brilliant (but not brilliant enough) team captains eventually did before them, but not in a month.
I mean, I guess the real question is, Achaea had a power glut in Ashtan for a very, very long time. Usually, power gluts just move around (which is also bad), but in this case, a few really capable players consistently attracted a lot of the game's talent. How did that juggernaut finally get broken? Imperian starting to die in earnest (and original A-Team members being too busy to lead as much as they did in days of yore), seemed to really help flesh out other factions in Achaea in a way that made things a lot more equal and robust. That is an outsiders view, but it makes an awful lot of sense to me. It had the effect of something I've been talking about for years, and that Owyn brought up in his post. Top tier fighters from Imperian (and probably other games, too) had the effect of a forced redistribution of PK-ers (along with less A-Team availability).
"It was that the vast majority of the fight didn't care if you just liked to fight and showed up to fight all the time and cause trouble, and that the story was well done and alive and moving".
These are very big plusses. Having a larger population to begin with puts less pressure on people to show up (or not show up). In a big game I am guessing you don't constantly worry about having exactly the right team comp and size, and to some degree you actually can't afford to (because they might just show up with an army anyway), which takes a lot of pressure off too. I think Imperian could have limped along a good bit longer if PK factions had been more balanced, but absolutely, story helps a lot, and even has some uses that are pretty directly linked to PK. But even in general, we play partly to be part of a good story. And if you won't let Antioch write that story, you'd better be writing it yourself.
EDIT: Still, even if you could do your best at sorting players, forced redistribution would be very, very upsetting to friend groups that want to play (and win) together. Very few players are willing to self shuffle (even if orgs weren't permanently closed off to some players as they are now), and I doubt they'd take kindly to forced shuffling. That alone is a big barrier to treating an IRE game more like a MOBA when it comes to shuffling PK assets. And even if your sorting system were somehow near perfect, even "big" IRE games would still have balance issues because not enough players, and huge skill differences. It might just be the kind of problem that only gets solved (at least for a good while) when another game drops a bunch of artifacted, capable PK-ers from the sky.
How did that juggernaut finally get broken? Imperian starting to die in earnest (and original A-Team members being too busy to lead as much as they did in days of yore), seemed to really help flesh out other factions in Achaea in a way that made things a lot more equal and robust. ... Top tier fighters from Imperian (and probably other games, too) had the effect of a forced redistribution of PK-ers (along with less A-Team availability).
Was not personally around for Ashtan being a juggernaut, by the time I joined it was already in a pretty weak spot, which had relatively little to do with Imperian's players moving. Very few of the Imperian retiree's have had a massive impact on any cities fighting force in Achaea.
@Ryc All of what you're saying is, of course, true. Nevertheless, it is impossible to engage in combat against people in earnest when you yourself don't have a team that is enthusiastic about it. It happens all of the time, every time. It would be inconceivable for you to imagine that people don't fight against Kinsarmar folks anymore (regardless if I'm there or not,) but that is how it is. I had a 5-month gap between the last pk I got and a handful of days ago myself.
It isn't even so much a "skill" issue as much as it is a ratio issue. Kinsarmar now, in terms of available power, is similar to what Antioch used to be. Not because Old Antioch wouldn't beat Kinsarmar now (would, for sure,) but because the amount of players who are capable of meaningfully engaging against it are all but gone.
Antioch had then what Kinsarmar does now, and that's a team that when together pretty much has no match in a single area. Sure, 2 circles could team against Antioch at the time, and the fights would be fun. But they'd still lose in the end (sometimes horribly.) This is ok when it's not a guaranteed outcome (or doesn't appear to be at least.) It's not ok when there simply isn't anything else. People who aren't as into pk just give up. And that leaves people like you and I with nothing to do.
I've begged Septus to come back. I'd love to see you actually come back in earnest at some point. But really, that's not for the game. That's for me. It'd give ME something to do, because I love it and I really don't mind losing a lot. That's what drives me to improve. I'm inherently lazy; if I'm not losing, I don't care if I know better. I'm not making changes. Antioch has been showing an interest in pk recently which is exciting. It's also scary though. I still don't participate MOST of the time, because I want them to continue striving to improve and enjoy doing it. I don't want to just smash them constantly until they give up.
Okay so I've thought about this a bit, and some of these may be bad or half baked, and I know I've mentioned some before. Also, some of these are community things and some of these are admin things and I haven't separated them at all but here goes:
1. PKers are probably the single most valuable commodity in existence in a conflict based game. Not even good ones, just willing ones. No amount of RP will make up for a lack of dudes willing to back it and die for it, you'll just get steamrolled. (don't underestimate the value of RP, has to be something for them to back), therefor think of them that way, people hated the guts of lots of the big names before they retired, but banning them from ever joining your org was very much a cut off your nose to spite your face type of thing.
2. To that end, don't tell people to not fight. You can choose to not engage yourself as you want, but the minute you start discouraging fighting because 'they'll just come back' or something similar is the minute your org starts to die
3. With all due respect, you need to change the storyline somehow, and it might just be better if you let someone come in, retcon a few stories, and then start telling it from there. I doubt you guys can hire more coders or admin in general right now based on budget (I don't know this - just rampant speculation) but maybe look at sending out a call for volunteers for coding/storytelling admin from other games that you can pay with credits to that game (these people likely should not be allowed to play Imperian for reasons that I think are fairly obvious, but if you offer a decent amount of Cr/Month or Cr/thing done, you'd probably get a few volunteers willing to try, I'd suggest you only start paying out when they really get going so they don't do something like start, realize they don't care, and leave. But that'd be your call)
4. As a community. Take losing fights, but set smaller goals. This isn't just to humor the current kings of the hill, this is really as simple as how to learn to fight and win. Obviously some fights you're going to lose. if it's 25v6 don't make the goal to win the event. Make the goal to kill 6 of them before you drop. Or split them and wipe a splinter group. Small steps.
5. Centralize. You have too many orgs and not enough players to fill them, some of them are redundant and only tied together because of mechanical restrictions. IMO - either get rid of them: you can keep the circles and potentially multiple cities per circle, but instead of tying effects to a circle overall, tie them to a city, let there be political intrigue and fighting amongst a circle, or delete another 2 cities and as part of your rewrite redo some of Anti-Magick's lore, regardless of what you believe multiple players have advocated that the keeping of AM as a key identity after the death of the gods was kind of lackluster. I'll join them, it might not fit your idea of the story but if the players don't buy into it very much as motivation it's still wasted and useless.
Something to try: "hire", say, minimum 3-4 team captains from other games to try to mix things up in Imperian. Literally do an all call to top group leaders in other games and say "If you think you're a good combat leader, send us an application. Then, if you go moonlight for say... at least a year (or more) over in Imperian, we'll try to make it worth your while. You can keep playing your current game, but of course you need to give Imperian a lot of good prime time hours every week". Maybe absolutely no one (no one qualified that is) will want to, and I think that would definitely be a sign, but at the same time, you don't need many yeses. Give them heavily artied mortal characters to play for the duration. Turn them loose and let them learn the game as though they were any new player (who is also a beast in another IRE). Let them figure the game out. Let them start fighting. Where orgs already have at least one capable leader, that should be taken into consideration beforehand, but since you're just inserting them as "normal" players, they mostly just need to be flexible. By the same token if they are completely wasted in an org that just won't allow conflict (see Cyr's number 2), they move to an org that -will- entertain the idea.
An honest assessment of the relative capabilities of each player should be attempted before the thing starts (they're all going to be great if they were selected, but the standouts probably shouldn't be on one team). There should be an actual plan that everyone has agreed on, and people should be ready to adjust fire on that plan. This plan should involve starting trouble once they get their footing (obviously), and also, importantly, grooming the sort of people Cyr mentions in his first point. Eventually, Imperian would have to once again attract more of the sort of people who can grow into team captains themselves, but I think some breath of life is needed for that to be possible.
Alternatively, you could do an event and formally appoint these people as some sort of "warlords". But that does make it harder for them to spin themselves up (they do still have to adequately master a different IRE, unless they're former Imperian players). It's also less flexible later on.
I've long considered team captain an incredibly important informal GM position (but also one that is hard to make into a formal one like org leader), and one of the few things that might help jumpstart the game (but it does have to be kept running once started). But maybe try literally recruiting "volunteers" who have the "team captain" skillset.
tfw a price point change is the big move they chose
That's failing to see the forest through the trees. We chose a solution that frees up development resources, and we have also recognized that we need to devote more to a story direction. It's a big re-focus in addition to the "price point change".
The price point change is the mountain in front of the forest. "We'll focus more on story and hire a story person" wouldn't have even registered a player login change or half the reactions I've heard.
Comments
EDIT: also, I am nicer, but "come with me if you want to live" - Owyn (alternatively "come with me if you want to lift" - Browyn).
I would like retirement to change in such a fashion that I can either get my retire value on a non-newbie or get a portion of it via an additional penalty. I feel this is a completely acceptable ask.
thoughts, @Jeremy Saunders?
I mean, I guess the real question is, Achaea had a power glut in Ashtan for a very, very long time. Usually, power gluts just move around (which is also bad), but in this case, a few really capable players consistently attracted a lot of the game's talent. How did that juggernaut finally get broken? Imperian starting to die in earnest (and original A-Team members being too busy to lead as much as they did in days of yore), seemed to really help flesh out other factions in Achaea in a way that made things a lot more equal and robust. That is an outsiders view, but it makes an awful lot of sense to me. It had the effect of something I've been talking about for years, and that Owyn brought up in his post. Top tier fighters from Imperian (and probably other games, too) had the effect of a forced redistribution of PK-ers (along with less A-Team availability).
"It was that the vast majority of the fight didn't care if you just liked to fight and showed up to fight all the time and cause trouble, and that the story was well done and alive and moving".
These are very big plusses. Having a larger population to begin with puts less pressure on people to show up (or not show up). In a big game I am guessing you don't constantly worry about having exactly the right team comp and size, and to some degree you actually can't afford to (because they might just show up with an army anyway), which takes a lot of pressure off too. I think Imperian could have limped along a good bit longer if PK factions had been more balanced, but absolutely, story helps a lot, and even has some uses that are pretty directly linked to PK. But even in general, we play partly to be part of a good story. And if you won't let Antioch write that story, you'd better be writing it yourself.
EDIT: Still, even if you could do your best at sorting players, forced redistribution would be very, very upsetting to friend groups that want to play (and win) together. Very few players are willing to self shuffle (even if orgs weren't permanently closed off to some players as they are now), and I doubt they'd take kindly to forced shuffling. That alone is a big barrier to treating an IRE game more like a MOBA when it comes to shuffling PK assets. And even if your sorting system were somehow near perfect, even "big" IRE games would still have balance issues because not enough players, and huge skill differences. It might just be the kind of problem that only gets solved (at least for a good while) when another game drops a bunch of artifacted, capable PK-ers from the sky.
1. PKers are probably the single most valuable commodity in existence in a conflict based game. Not even good ones, just willing ones. No amount of RP will make up for a lack of dudes willing to back it and die for it, you'll just get steamrolled. (don't underestimate the value of RP, has to be something for them to back), therefor think of them that way, people hated the guts of lots of the big names before they retired, but banning them from ever joining your org was very much a cut off your nose to spite your face type of thing.
2. To that end, don't tell people to not fight. You can choose to not engage yourself as you want, but the minute you start discouraging fighting because 'they'll just come back' or something similar is the minute your org starts to die
3. With all due respect, you need to change the storyline somehow, and it might just be better if you let someone come in, retcon a few stories, and then start telling it from there. I doubt you guys can hire more coders or admin in general right now based on budget (I don't know this - just rampant speculation) but maybe look at sending out a call for volunteers for coding/storytelling admin from other games that you can pay with credits to that game (these people likely should not be allowed to play Imperian for reasons that I think are fairly obvious, but if you offer a decent amount of Cr/Month or Cr/thing done, you'd probably get a few volunteers willing to try, I'd suggest you only start paying out when they really get going so they don't do something like start, realize they don't care, and leave. But that'd be your call)
4. As a community. Take losing fights, but set smaller goals. This isn't just to humor the current kings of the hill, this is really as simple as how to learn to fight and win. Obviously some fights you're going to lose. if it's 25v6 don't make the goal to win the event. Make the goal to kill 6 of them before you drop. Or split them and wipe a splinter group. Small steps.
5. Centralize. You have too many orgs and not enough players to fill them, some of them are redundant and only tied together because of mechanical restrictions. IMO - either get rid of them: you can keep the circles and potentially multiple cities per circle, but instead of tying effects to a circle overall, tie them to a city, let there be political intrigue and fighting amongst a circle, or delete another 2 cities and as part of your rewrite redo some of Anti-Magick's lore, regardless of what you believe multiple players have advocated that the keeping of AM as a key identity after the death of the gods was kind of lackluster. I'll join them, it might not fit your idea of the story but if the players don't buy into it very much as motivation it's still wasted and useless.
An honest assessment of the relative capabilities of each player should be attempted before the thing starts (they're all going to be great if they were selected, but the standouts probably shouldn't be on one team). There should be an actual plan that everyone has agreed on, and people should be ready to adjust fire on that plan. This plan should involve starting trouble once they get their footing (obviously), and also, importantly, grooming the sort of people Cyr mentions in his first point. Eventually, Imperian would have to once again attract more of the sort of people who can grow into team captains themselves, but I think some breath of life is needed for that to be possible.
Alternatively, you could do an event and formally appoint these people as some sort of "warlords". But that does make it harder for them to spin themselves up (they do still have to adequately master a different IRE, unless they're former Imperian players). It's also less flexible later on.
I've long considered team captain an incredibly important informal GM position (but also one that is hard to make into a formal one like org leader), and one of the few things that might help jumpstart the game (but it does have to be kept running once started). But maybe try literally recruiting "volunteers" who have the "team captain" skillset.