This quick attack with a shortsword will, when used against mobiles and other creatures in Imperian, strike with more damage and more accuracy than a standard weapon slash.
With a lightning-quick motion, you slash a black rat with a sturdy shortsword.
Damage dealt: 15
Balance Taken: 3.63s
This skill is a legacy holdover from the days when weapons were wildly inaccurate against mobs and you needed two weapons to DSL. There is zero excuse for Chivalry to still have such a horrifyingly god-awful attack. Even Mages get Firelash as a novice nowadays. Please delete Thrust and just let newbies DSL.
This quick attack with a shortsword will, when used against mobiles and other creatures in Imperian, strike with more damage and more accuracy than a standard weapon slash.
With a lightning-quick motion, you slash a black rat with a sturdy shortsword.
Damage dealt: 15
Balance Taken: 3.63s
This skill is a legacy holdover from the days when weapons were wildly inaccurate against mobs and you needed two weapons to DSL. There is zero excuse for Chivalry to still have such a horrifyingly god-awful attack. Even Mages get Firelash as a novice nowadays. Please delete Thrust and just let newbies DSL.
DSL is awful without lessons into chivalry. You miss all the time. Rats will escape you. Thrust is fine. Also, BOLD.
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
DSL and many other weapon-based attacks were changed so that if you have a weapon above 150 to-hit you're almost guaranteed to hit. I had an amazon that tipslashed with a 147 to-hit javelin and missed one out of maybe every 100 attacks. With 12 strength, she had about 15 DPS on her javelin -- nearly four times that of the Knight with 15 strength.
At Skilled, with a 152/152/138 axe and the Strong statpack, I'm doing 74 damage per DSL at a 5.09s balance -- that's about 14.5 DPS and comparable to the DPS of my Amazon's tipslash. I haven't missed once yet.
Please delete Thrust and move DSL down so novices can use it.
Damage, speed and accuracy for dsl are determined by a mix of weapon stats and chivalry. The 150 ceiling you reference is a a mortal creation. After tons of experience and testing, people finally decided that 150 was the sweat spot for to-hit on weapons (assuming trans chivalry and weaponry). I'm not saying it's a good system here, but it's what we have. Truth be told, I think the way weaponry damage works is probably old and busted (circa 2000?) and silly for a lot of reasons.
tl;dr: DSL sucks if you don't learn a lot of chivalry. Your damage tanks, your to-hit tanks and your speed tanks. That's why they made thrust as a viable alternative. Stick to hating mage and not ruining low-level knight bashing. The thread is called "Improving Imperian" after all.
Hey, you know what would be really awesome? If people would actually pay attention to what I am posting.
Accuracy of weapons versus mobs was changed months if not years ago. My newbie knight with his 150 to-hit weapon and Skilled rank has not missed a single DSL against any NPC since he started using it.
It is extraordinarily simple to infer from this that Thrust has absolutely no advantage over DSL. Its 'improved accuracy' is totally irrelevant and it is barely more effective than kicking things to death. It is a relic of a bygone area and should be treated as such.
The logic, IIRC, was that weapon attacks did damage AND afflictions, and hence deserved a chance to miss, whereas magical attacks did damage OR afflictions, and therefore deserved to hit every time.
Of course, in practice, this meant that any miss chance high enough to matter was enough to be infuriating, as the RNG would occasionally just reach up and slap entire setups out of your hands, just to be a dick.
So we got rid of that over time, as it was absolutely infuriating.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Thrust isn't legacy. DSL used to be the only attack for novice knights, and us Diav's got it easy because we had decay.
E: Thrust is a great fix for lowbies/novices I guess, but on the subject of improving Imperian... why is accuracy a thing anymore? No real reason for it to be. Let clumsy give 50% miss chance or something when afflicted and swinging, and everything else hits.
Thrust exists for players who don't have skilled chivalry yet. Like, characters who can't learn to skilled because they're novices. This hand holding is getting tiring.
Thrust exists for players who don't have skilled chivalry yet. Like, characters who can't learn to skilled because they're novices. This hand holding is getting tiring.
Because letting novices do more than 5 DPS is hand-holding, right? Mages had this exact same problem with Stonefist, which is why Firelash can be learned by novices now.
What exactly is anyone going to lose if Duality gets moved to Adept?
With a 152 to-hit sabre and virtuoso chivalry, still missed about 1/8 to 1/10 of the time. When I did go up to fabled, missed less, but still missed. Not terrible, but definitely not "never miss".
also: pretty sure what he meant was that holding your hand was getting tiring.
Imperian would improve if Abigail wasn't a female Luthyr
With a 152 to-hit sabre and virtuoso chivalry, still missed about 1/8 to 1/10 of the time. When I did go up to fabled, missed less, but still missed. Not terrible, but definitely not "never miss".
Accuracy against mobs was changed a while agoand I have no idea why I need to keep repeating this.
My knight is now level 65 and Expert skill, using a 146 to-hit weapon. I still have yet to miss a single DSL while bashing and have partially missed only twice. If you want you're welcome to come watch me DSL things and not miss.
Yes I am aware it was changed some time ago. I only just finished learning chivalry like, 2 days ago. Up til then it was at virtuoso (with trans weaponry).
The good thing about this is that whether or not you choose to believe it, it's still the fact. And fact is, with the current form of DSL, thrust is better for newbies. So your statement"Its 'improved accuracy' is totally irrelevant"is not accurate because the accuracy is entirely what makes it anywhere remotely useful.
That being said, I'm all for DSL accuracy not sucking at non-trans levels (and/or give shortsword DSL a damage bonus vs mobs... though knights already get a free proficiency for when they are more skilled).
And fact is, with the current form of DSL, thrust is better for newbies. So your statement"Its 'improved accuracy' is totally irrelevant"is not accurate because the accuracy is entirely what makes it anywhere remotely useful.
You are factually incorrect.
It is a one-handed weapon.
Damage: 97 To-hit: 282 Speed: 132
It has been sharpened and holds a razor edge.
It is in perfect shape.
It is of very good quality.
A sturdy shortsword is made completely of stehl.
A sturdy shortsword has no toxins or effects on it.
Thrust:
You swing a sturdy shortsword at a giant millipede with a powerful strike.
Damage dealt: 18
Adrenaline flows in your veins and your wounds hurt less.
Health Gain: 1
Balance Taken: 3.85s
DSL:
You swing a sturdy shortsword at a giant millipede with a powerful strike.
Damage dealt: 31
Adrenaline flows in your veins and your wounds hurt less.
Health Gain: 3
You slash viciously into a giant millipede with a sturdy shortsword.
Damage dealt: 22
The final blow proves too much for a giant millipede, who expires, pitifully.
You have slain a giant millipede.
Balance Taken: 5.07s
This is at Expert, but I guarantee you that you will obtain the same results at any skill level. Even without a shortsword, your miss chance with DSL is less than 1%, unless you have a weapon with freakishly low to-hit (i.e. a claymore made out of sinn.)
Azefel: With a 152to-hit sabre and virtuoso chivalry, still missed about 1/8 to 1/10 of the time.
Abigail: Damage: 97 To-hit: 282 Speed: 132
Your data can't really apply to his data because of the bold part. Your sample size of one and anecdotal proof for everything else isn't really backing up any of your claims. You still haven't addressed the whole 'novice' thing, which has a skill cap of adept, which is too low to access 100%(citation needed) doubleslash. Please stop. It's not that important.
**Also: It's worth mentioning that a low end, sub-adept skill -should- be outclassed by a skilled ability that maxes at transcendent. This could be by design.
What I think the better point is: The weaponry damage/to-hit system needs a sweet visit from the redesign fairy. Into the spaghetti we go?
Overwhelming evidence is not 3 snippits of a log and/or anecdotal story time.
I'm not sure how to explain this in a fashion that you understand. Novice. and. dsl. would. be. bad.
-Your damage would suck. Why? Chiv = Novice.
-Your balance time would suck. Why? Chiv=Novice.
-Your to-hit would suck. Why? Chiv=novice.
Chivalry dictates all these things. These three things are. Speed. To-hit. Damage. (I addedcolorbecausemaybeyou'rea visuallearner)
Novice has a level cap of adept.Adept is very low on the skillrank hierarchy. (I just realized that you could be red/green color blind, so this may not work.)
Also. There's no way to guarantee people get high quality (Tohit=150) weapons. Some of your crappy players are out there peddling 100% sinn weapons. Novices also don't know how to look for to-hit. They've got a million other things going on.
DSL is mid-ranged in skillset to artificially make people think "Hey, I've gone from one slash at a time to being a two slash laser sword." It's an artificial mechanism to make it feel like you're improving (you are.) It works that way. It's better than your unnecessary fix. The 1% miss (I think anything that's not 100% accurate is terrible and should be replaced) could cause a text-tornado (chaos theory, sup) and kill us all. That is simply a risk I'm not willing to take based on fuzzy 'data' to fix a problem that's not there. I would argue for a decay-like skill in devotion and rg-runelore before I ever argued for deleting thrust.
Here is my conclusion: Being accurate with DSL does not require a significant lesson investment and it would be appropriate to use as a novice hunting ability.
Yes. Only accuracy has been decoupled from the skill rank.
Right now, newbie knights are forced to use an attack that is only about twice as effective as kicking things to death. There is no excuse for this when literally every other profession either gets their standard bashing attack at novicehood, or at least a "semi-effective" ability like firelash or decay. Either lower DSL to Adept, or make Thrust deal more damage.
Also. There's no way to guarantee people get high quality (Tohit=150) weapons. Some of your crappy players are out there peddling 100% sinn weapons. Novices also don't know how to look for to-hit. They've got a million other things going on.
So use shortswords, which are universally guaranteed to have over 150 tohit and should not cost any more than 600 gold.
A shortsword DSL is a little less than three times the DPS of a shortsword thrust (at Expert, I recorded 12.2 as opposed to 4.6) and if you can manage to miss a shortsword DSL, then you are doing something incredibly wrong.
The lion's share of newbie bashing attacks start at around a baseline of 10-15 DPS. If you make a newbie of any profession, reach Adept in your primary skill, you will probably do somewhere in the realm of 10 DPS, if not more.
What reason is there for Thrust to do half the damage of other novice bashing attacks? Its sole advantage has been nullified completely by recent changes. Stonefist, at least, offers a defensive benefit (it's like mage limb armor.)
Comments
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
the claims are stated - it's the world I've created
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
also: pretty sure what he meant was that holding your hand was getting tiring.
Imperian would improve if Abigail wasn't a female Luthyr
The good thing about this is that whether or not you choose to believe it, it's still the fact. And fact is, with the current form of DSL, thrust is better for newbies. So your statement "Its 'improved accuracy' is totally irrelevant" is not accurate because the accuracy is entirely what makes it anywhere remotely useful.
That being said, I'm all for DSL accuracy not sucking at non-trans levels (and/or give shortsword DSL a damage bonus vs mobs... though knights already get a free proficiency for when they are more skilled).
Abigail: Damage: 97 To-hit: 282 Speed: 132
Your data can't really apply to his data because of the bold part. Your sample size of one and anecdotal proof for everything else isn't really backing up any of your claims. You still haven't addressed the whole 'novice' thing, which has a skill cap of adept, which is too low to access 100%(citation needed) doubleslash. Please stop. It's not that important.
Novice has a level cap of adept. Adept is very low on the skillrank hierarchy. (I just realized that you could be red/green color blind, so this may not work.)
And to clarify: weapon accuracy against -mobs- is not affected by your skill rank anymore. Weapon accuracy against -players- still is.
Balance-time and damage-output are still chivalry? (and the bonus from weaponry to damage?)
Newbie summoners use decay, which doesn't do terrific damage at low levels of noctu. Thrust is fine to get someone to skilled.
What reason is there for Thrust to do half the damage of other novice bashing attacks? Its sole advantage has been nullified completely by recent changes. Stonefist, at least, offers a defensive benefit (it's like mage limb armor.)