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GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 305 ✭✭✭
Engineer isn't what I expected it to be. It feels like it could be a fun class, but right now it feels awkward and underpowered. Perhaps the problem is just one of balance, and changing some numbers would help, but I'm not sure. Ballistics feels pretty solid as an offensive skillset, aside from the aforementioned lack of clout, but focus and inventing both miss the mark somehow.

In the case of focus, nearly every skill in it depends on having focus to use, but focus generation still feels too slow and it means you get a few fancy focus shots per fight, if that. This is especially awkward because the class is so untanky compared to others that you end up dead before you even get enough focus to do much. Admittedly, I haven't tested recently. 

Inventing is the big 'miss' for me, though: Whilst it has some fun ideas and neat things, a third of the skill is taken up by chems and parts of it feel lackluster. Personally, I was expecting more from this skill in particular: More utility, some defensive stuff, and interesting gadgets to use during fights. The biggest surprise is the complete lack of explosives or any evolution of ideas from AB ENGINEERING, followed by the lack of pets and bigger inventions. Yes, inventing allows for a custom clockwork familiar, but it doesn't interact with the class in any special way and behaves like an ordinary familiar. 

My suggestions: 

 - Focus: Make it gain much quicker, and rebalance the focus shots to account for this. 
 - Focus: Or instead of the above, flip focus entirely and make it a resource you start the fight with and use up as the fight goes on.
 - Ballistics: This skill feels like it tickles, even with artifacts. Fixing focus might help this, but it could probably do with rebalancing itself.
 - Inventing: Cut down on the number of chems. Some of them are too niche, some of them would only help allies marginally and the Engineer not at all.
 - Inventing: Add more utility/PVE stuff to inventing in place of the removed chems. 
 - Inventing: Change the familiar so it's more Engineer specific and have it interact with the professions other skills more. Have the skill to make the familiar/pet at the midpoint of AB INVENTING, with a few skills that utilise it higher up.

I've started this thread because I'm curious how other people feel about the profession and the above suggestions. I did submit a few classleads to add to inventing and the gyrocopter in particular, but those were rejected. 


  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The issue is the attachment to Focus and Chemicals remaining in the model in the design doc. They are counterproductive to one another. The class needed to scrap one concept and change the other radically. There's too many moving pieces, the class doesn't have a lot of interesting things going for it unless you like being a kingmaker, etc. It was billed as an easy class and that ease means it has nothing really interesting to DO.

    If you recall, we both insisted that something was wrong during the beta and that Focus needed a change. That specific model, however, was held to and we worked within the lines dictated.

    There's some changes I could see working out. Do one of the following major things:

    1. Buff survivability so an Engineer can turtle to high Focus. I don't like this personally but it seems to be a common idea pitched to me when I discussed the class with those that had hope for it. I don't love the idea of a class that turtles forever in the hopes of charging its laser.

    2. Add Focus Generation (i.e focus gain) to certain Ballistics shots. Make the shot generate focus over time instead of in one big chunk, which means you steadily ramp up. I think this is a good fix because it puts agency in the hands of the Engineer player.

    Make the following minor changes:

    1. Change Dig Out Shot to deal damage based on the time it took to take the shot out.

    2. Change Hotshot to a different effect.

    Personally, I think Engineer is viable, but just barely. It is way better in teams and I don't see enough people properly taking advantage of that. A good Engineer will make the other people in your team way, way more miserable to deal with. The issue is team combat has fallen by the wayside, which is funny considering Engineer was billed as a team king.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • SarriusSarrius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also, double post, but Engineer has one style that works against most any player that does not own a Darrinic Robe. You just have to be able to survive to the point where it will reach critical mass. In teams, this style also makes Priests, Druids, and Diabolists fairly terrifying to deal with.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>****, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • DimitriDimitri Somewhere coldMember Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    My thoughts:

    Blunderbuss - It's fun to shotgun someone from the next room, but it's inaccurate (which it's supposed to be, it's the grandpappy of shotguns) and really only feels of any use as an irritant. It has its use as a sniper, sure but that's really niche and you're incredibly vulnerable while flying to vortexing for example as it will just drag you out of the sky. (i think? i've never actually done it and when I did see an option to do it, I was informed -not- to fly up as I'd get ripped out of the sky by a nearby vortex, so... unconfirmed?) I already have enough guns to juggle just with one (or two) flintlocks, the blunderbuss AND the belcher. 

    Trade blunderbuss for additional class focus on the flintlock, granting it the ability to shoot people from adjacent rooms. Sniping is fun, but when most people can easily find your location and it's a weird skill mechanically due to just how new of a concept it is. I don't mind unloading the kitchen sink at someone but the opportunities to use it are slim, and the chances of it succeeding are even slimmer. More likely for it to blow up in my face or miss targets entirely than for me to do anything meaningful with it.

    Familiars - Engineer is hilariously squishy, I'm weaker than an unartied (or even artied) predator and I've even got a few artifacts to boost my resists as it is. I'm still going to get squashed like an ant by anyone who just looks at me, I don't mind being a glass cannon, but I'm not even a cannon. I'm a cap gun.

    Drop the familiar, and give me a 'mech suit' sort of thing, functions resists wise like full-plate. Customisable and turns me into a literal tank? I'm not asking for invulnerability, I'm asking for some survivability here. The familiar is cool, but I've basically got the mechanical equivalent of a Magikarp in Pokemon, as it's only real use outside of an RP prop is for familiar battles and I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that, or even mention doing it on a regular basis (though we could start but no one's really interested in it I think?). I've already had someone assume my clockwork was more of a pet and less of a familiar and attack it to see what happens. They were disappointed that it flees when attacked despite having an assessable strength level and I was annoyed they attacked my robot in the first place. Now my robot hides somewhere (i've completely forgotten where it is) in favour of a normal tameable pet because it's just more useful.

    Chemshots - I think getting shot in certain vital organs would be enough of a problem as is and as much as i love the dystite/incendite combo for the entertainment value, I think a bullet to the gut - for example - is enough problems as is. After futzing around with the class since its release and getting into a couple PVP situations, I do just fine without the chemical shots aside from just not doing a lot of damage to begin with. I've got enough choice with target zones without the chemicals, and I think this was what people were meaning with "too complicated for me thanks" at release. I've got varying effects with different 'normal' shots, PLUS the additional modifiers of chemrounds to offer.

    Nuke the chemshots entirely? They were fun at launch when we were all figuring out what the shiny new bullets do to a body but they just make engineer clunkier and more resource intensive than some people are willing to commit to, and would also probably open the class to a few people who were put off by the surface complexity of the class as engineer basically tries to be two things at once but doesn't really do well at either. Domecap/toadstool balance recovery and choice isn't a bad idea, but it's a vague irritation to people and less of a dilemma. 'I ate a domecap just now and got loaded up with chems, i can handle X amount of seconds with the afflictions, I'll just eat toadstool, for now, NBD' or alternatively 'I sip so high I don't need to worry about toadstool, i'll just nuke the cures with the domecap and completely negate the afflictions ever X seconds for the duration of the fight.'

    Focus Generation - 
    Old focus had its issues, new focus also has its drawbacks. Old focus: couldn't generate enough focus fast enough, long enough, to make use of any of the trick shots or focus shots. The new focus method has a similar problem where my focus 'multiplier' is lost when I make a focus shot of any kind. Basically putting me to zero focus even if I have the focus, to begin with. From what I can tell, most of the shots take ~20% focus (i may be off on it but I do see a drop in that ballpark.

    Third time is the charm, change it again. I've just come up with this as I wrote and would appreciate any fine-tuning from more experienced/seasoned minds than mine but focus generation via 'combos' not sure how else to put it? Functions a bit like the new focus generation but instead of generating over time, you generate via doing certain shots. The logic being you 'zero in' with each successive shot made, each shot acting as a gateway to the next.

    You start off with your normal shots with whichever ammo type you prefer - ammo type does NOT impact your focus generation positively or negatively - this generates you enough focus over a few shots to get the 'low-tier' skillshots like the miscellaneous large organs (lungs, liver, gut) and limbs (arm, leg, calf). After a certain point, you don't generate anymore focus with normal shots but can maintain that low level by popping off normal shots alternating with the focused shots.  From that point forward, you need the focus shot skill. Focus shot stops doing additional damage and is now your second tier focus generator opening up vitals (spleen, heart, throat, wounding) and the head (face, head).
    Instead of snapshot giving you a 'free' chemshot/regular shot, randomly hits an organ that you have focus for but does NOT burn any focus for doing so.

    Veinshot would probably go, as it's only really used for chemshots. Maybe repurpose it for a different effect altogether, like a group fighting shot that relapses an affliction or afflict black blood for temporary DoT?

  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    IRE combat in general is based on both sides being able to hit one another, so hard no to the range combat ideas. It would just be ridiculous -- engineer keeps moving to hit target, target keeps chasing engineer to hit back.
    currently tentatively active
    (may vanish for periods of time)
  • GaltGalt Member, Beta Testers Posts: 305 ✭✭✭
    I don't mind how sniping works, though perhaps flying and vortex interaction needs a look.

    As for the blunderbuss, my one gripe with that is that it costs as much as a main class weapon despite being a secondary weapon. That doesn't happen for other class secondary weapons, which generally cost significantly less than the blunderbuss. The bows for example cost 250/550/1000, dartsheaths 200/400/800. As the blunderbuss is only used for a handful of skills, I feel like the pricing for it should be in line with other secondary class weapons.

    And as drastic as the "remove chems" idea is, that would free up significant space in inventing for new stuff and allow ballistics and focus to be made more coherent. 

  • DimitriDimitri Somewhere coldMember Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Mereis said:
    IRE combat in general is based on both sides being able to hit one another, so hard no to the range combat ideas. It would just be ridiculous -- engineer keeps moving to hit target, target keeps chasing engineer to hit back.
    Rangers: Strafeshot, Longshot, the bowmanship ability.
    Monks: Kai choke, most if not all telepathy skills
    (This is just what i have experience with, and is by no means a comprehensive list of ranged attacks)

    I may have worded it wrong, but I'm wanting just my regular 'shoot <target>' to be appended with 'shoot <target> <direction> which i can already do with the blunderbuss, sure. But the blunderbuss can do eight (?) rooms whereas i'm only asking for adjacent. Since everyone's got alertness up at all times it's a bit moot as a means of kiting an opponent, especially when I lose balance for somewhere in the neighborhood of two seconds. If you can't find me in the next room when i fire my popgun at you within that time frame, you have other problems methinks.

  • HyperionusHyperionus Member Posts: 41
    edited October 2018
    I absolutely love the Engineer class, insofar as it is a solid support class.  We are squishy as all get out, which is fine, because we provide decent damage.  The chems are a cheesy way to deal damage (which I like), trickshots have some potential for combos and targeting multiple people. Focus shots provide a good way to support any strategy your team come up with.  It doesn't have any permanence, though.  If you have domecaps and know how to use them, chems are a toothless threat.  Focus shots can all be cured simultaneously - I can shoot you in eight different body parts, tie your hands behind your back, and you can still dig out all the shots at the same time.  That point is relatively moot, though, because by the time I've gathered enough focus to do a second focus shot the first one is almost out.  Ironite would provide a nice fix for this, if chems weren't so easy to cure.  It leaves Engineers with the exact opposite strategy from toxin-based combat: lay on as few chems as you can, in the hopes of not triggering the opponent's autocuring.  Needless to say, that only works on someone once.

       I would like to see Engineers provide either a focus in focus like they do in shooting/damage, or a more affordable focus shot (costing a combination of focus and the otherwise useless mana, perhaps?). Or, see domecaps revised so they just cure one level of every chem in your system, to encourage stacking and tactics that revolve around timing.  Having said this, I'm an unartied non-aspect Engi and have only been with ire for a few months, so I still have a lot to learn. :)
  • DecDec Member, Immortal Posts: 216 mod
    There are so many things that can be improved with engineers (and many other classes).  The devil, as they say, is in the details.  I encourage everyone with ideas about specific changes to think them through and submit classleads.  Or add a comment to an existing classlead.  
  • GjarrusGjarrus Member, Beta Testers Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭
    Literally felt like too much to classlead for me. Here is my old assessment. Just add 'dystite is bugged ho boi, autocuring domecap 1 or die'

    Key issues
    The whole thing feels like 2.3 gun skillsets.
    Focus is on a geological time scale.
    Explosives - Not one explosives skill is downright awful.
    No travel or mobility really. The utility overall is meh.
    Limited battlefield engineering and the .. particular uses of Inventing gadgets leaves you not doing much but pew pew outside of the forge/lab.
    Might as well rename it Gunner (have I reinforced this point enough?)

    Inventing - Goodish, but between having to support offensive mechanics and pulling the weight for everything else, it feels kinda ... I dunno, haphazard and pointless in a lot of cases.
    Gyro - Fly is a 5s channel, and you can't even bypass it if you fly/call copter since it goes to ground. I'm never going to fly in that if I'm not using sniper, ever. Some more high-impact aerial moves would have to make the gating worth it (like maybe a BOMBING RUN?)
    Toggle - I'm torn because of its high variability in effectiveness (rip anyone with a 0 resist somewhere), but (and?) ~400g a use isn't a negligible use cost.
    BrassScope - Smart usage would be good QoL
    Spec/mono - I have these, Tomast, and unseen lol. I have Yi goggles at this point, and there are gem goggles now 
    Silence - I like this one, mostly.
    Familiar - Great
    Pocketwatch - I like this one in theory, but I haven't tested it much.
    Lodestone - 4s balance disarm with failure chance for a one-use item? Come on.
    CircularGlass - Could add something extra here given the 2g use cost, even if it's low, compared to farsee/other clones. Something like no cost on tag targets or something. 
    Chems - There are some weird bugs currently, but I like most of them? There are some things you can do with timing windows via throat and veinshot that are fun. I still wouldn't have minded just loading toxins into hollows (especially when you add neuroite, methite eat passive, snapshot, and gutshots).

    Ballistics - Overall good? Number passes definitely needed given my 25ish dps from straight damage routes as agile with +2 dex, meaning you really need to use chems now to have a chance.
    Prone - Dive/shot/kipup needs fixed in the plxno way.
    Fastload - This should be a nub skill.
    Sniper - I liked this until I saw how awful gyro fly is. I still do, but ugh.
    Buckler - Can I please use my arti shield even if the resist value doesn't go up from a buckler? :<
    Belcher skills - move to set 3
    Focus - Ballistics 2 lol. Condense them all to focus, passives, skillshot, and trickshot then put them in ballistics ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    NEWplx - Slideshot - Shoot and move to target, bypassing obstacles. Given the timebomb (potentially), escapes should still be limited but chase skills at least keep things active.
    NEWplx - Mortar - Ranged bomb delivery a la a meteor with instant detonation on impact
    Passives - I like the flat impact more than the heavy focus scaling from beta
    Dualshot - Awful investment. Almost 10s with normalshot/not shooting focus. 4.7s for dual light in shooting.
    Tagshot - This is great.

    New Skillset - Improvisation - Focused on battlefield control.
    (Boil, Scorch, Cremate)
    Trench - directional rubble (as opposed to multiple randoms a la Tower)
    Makeshift cover - blocks one ranged attack from the direction it's built towards
    Sap - Faster sapping charge use on walls
    Minefield - Chance of damage/prone on normal entry and exit
    Canal - Flood a room from an adjacent water room. (Restricted flooding is nice given aqualite and boil)
    Can'topy - Make a room temporarily outdoors
    Battle tempo - Transfer a portion of focus to your next target, higher value after a kill/assist than if they run
    Barricade - Stonewall

    I think that's enough to get the idea across? As it stands, the offense is meh aside from a couple chem strats, and everything else feels .. on the right path but incomplete?
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