Fix mages

Abigail

Mage is a legacy profession that in its decade of existence in Imperian has been paid very little attention to in terms of combat viability. The profession is only useful for niche roles assisting large groups and has absolutely zero solo offensive capability unless you embed retardation (which is boring and annoying for everyone stuck in it, mage included) or invest 5000 credits in a diadem, collar and sash so you can spam staffcast/holobomb everyone to death like Galt or Ruga.

A mage's ranged attack ability has been heavily nerfed by rendering erode useless and necessitating meteor arrows that are time-consuming and expensive to create in order to break shields (implying they are even outdoors; Mages are the only ranged-capable profession that cannot attack indoors enemies.)

Their setup time is disproportionately longer than other professions (20s+ to embed vibes plus 4s per exit icewalled plus 4s to flood the ground) and even then any profession that can dish out a decent amount of damage (i.e. everything except other mages) will easily steamroll them one-on-one. Exacerbating this issue is that they have no ability to pull anyone into their room-based setup apart from a passive vibration that is stopped by mass application.

Every ability in their primary skillset relies on constant connections to elemental channels that can be easily broken via toxin and are consumed by their single instakill ability (which is essentially a version of behead that is a hundred times more difficult to successfully pull off.)

Their secondary skillset requires drops obtained from mobs that exist in any reasonable amount in only two places in the world, far outside the borders of their org and, in some instances (sodiaur cavern, analeith cavern) guarded by multiple aggressive mobs. Other professions with unique energy sources (like kai or essence) either passively regenerate it over time or can easily obtain it with no risk to themselves.

Their tertiary skillset requires access to an org ritual chamber as well as a myriad of commodities, some of which are unable to be purchased from commshops. Contrast to knights, whose smithing only requires a forge (found in multiple non-org places around the world) and ingots (available from commshops or other players.)

The fact that intelligence-focused statpacks have a sip malus and comparatively low constitution to physical statpacks combined with a mage's primary utility being AoE hindering and damage support makes them a priority target in team combat that is quickly demolished in two or three claymore DSLs.

Their bashing ability is mediocre at best. As a tri-trans mage with the Intelligent statpack, when I staffcast horripilation in Aquais form I deal 105 damage per 3.8 seconds, equating to 27.6 DPS which is 8% less than the baseline of 30 DPS stated as the ideal for PVE combat at Transcendent for all professions. Staffcasting in Terrais (which is required as it is one of the few ways a Mage can mitigate physical damage) or without an elemental form deals 96 damage per 3.8 seconds. Elemental forms put an immense drain on willpower, even with trans Philosophy, and Mages will exhaust their supply far more quickly than any other profession will.

While Stormhammer functions well for multiple targets (and is probably the best bashing DPS in the game) a normal Mage does not have the damage resistance or health to fight three enemies at once (unless they are unquestionably weak and thus worth no experience,) rendering this attack more as a convenience for oyster hunting or mobs that are already aggressive to begin with. Stormhammer's mob targeting has also been catastrophically bugged for at least since December (making it impossible to target multiple types of enemies) and nothing has been done about it.

In summary, mages are in desperate need of not just a rebalancing but a complete redesign to render them more than a utility/crafting profession in today's Imperian. I cannot imagine a single benefit that a mage can provide in groups apart from a select few Crystalism abilities that another profession cannot do equally well or better.

Cadeyrn

Abigail said:

Mage is a legacy profession that in its near-decade of existence in Imperian has been paid very little attention to in terms of combat viability. The profession is only useful for niche roles assisting large groups and has no primary offensive capability unless you embed retardation (which is boring and annoying for everyone stuck in it, mage included) or invest 5000 credits in a diadem, collar and sash so you can spam staffcast/holobomb everyone to death like Galt or Ruga. 

Their ranged attack ability has been heavily nerfed by rendering erode useless and necessitating meteor arrows that are time-consuming and expensive to create in order to break shields (implying they are even outdoors; Mages are the only ranged-capable profession that cannot attack indoors enemies.)

Rangers also have skills that do not allow attacks against indoor enemies, plus targets that are "blocked" from them by means of walls and doors.

Their setup time is disproportionately longer than other professions (20s+ to embed vibes plus 4s per exit icewalled plus 4s to flood the ground) and even then any profession that can dish out a decent amount of damage (i.e. everything except other mages) will easily steamroll them one-on-one.

Templar "set up" as capable and diadem is 13.6 seconds, without the option to flood and wall as class abilities.

Their entire secondary skillset requires drops obtained from mobs that exist in any reasonable amount in only two places in the world.

There are huge amounts of oysters around these days, if you'd only go look for them. You can even train a pet to hunt oysters for you.

The fact that intelligence-focused statpacks have a sip malus and comparatively low constitution to physical statpacks combined with a mage's primary utility being AoE hindering and damage support makes them a priority target in team combat that is quickly demolished in two or three claymore DSLs.

Intelligent statpack was recently changed to go a long way to rectifying this problem.

Their bashing ability is mediocre at best. As a tri-trans mage with the Intelligent statpack, when I staffcast horripilation in Aquais form I deal 105 damage per 3.8 seconds, equating to 27.6 DPS which is 8% less than the baseline of 30 DPS stated as the ideal for PVE combat at Transcendent for all professions. Staffcasting in Terrais (which is required as it is one of the few ways a Mage can mitigate physical damage) or without an elemental form deals 96 damage per 3.8 seconds. Elemental forms put an immense drain on willpower, even with trans Philosophy, and Mages will exhaust their supply far more quickly than any other profession will.

As an athletic templar with a sharpened level 2 sabre (86 damage) and all class buffs I get around 31 DPS. My investment here is larger than yours, yet the DPS is only marginally greater when compared to a non-artifact attack.

While Stormhammer functions well for multiple targets (and is probably the best bashing DPS in the game) a normal Mage does not have the damage resistance or health to fight three enemies at once (unless they are unquestionably weak and thus worth no experience,) rendering this attack more as a convenience for oyster hunting or mobs that are already aggressive to begin with. Stormhammer's mob targeting has also been catastrophically bugged for at least since December (making it impossible to target multiple types of enemies) and nothing has been done about it.

They are in desperate need of not just a rebalancing but a complete redesign to render them more than a utility/crafting profession in today's Imperian. I cannot imagine a single benefit that a mage can provide in groups apart from a select few Crystalism abilities that another profession cannot do equally well or better.

I'm not saying Mage doesn't need tweaking, but I do think there are legacy classes that deserve looking at before we continue work on the circle which has received the largest amount of class redesigns in recent times.

Other people can, I am sure, make a more comprehensive argument to this effect.

Abigail

Rangers have an entire skillset dedicated to line-of-sight ranged combat that functions perfectly regardless of indoor and/or outdoor status.

Templars far outperform mages in not only damage but also afflicting. A mage cannot deal 200 damage per attack plus an additional hit consuming their vibes, nor can they stack afflictions with a sabre. The closest thing they have to that is a pestilence ring that delivers one toxin on a 3s balance and a chance to be destroyed with every use. 

While the intelligent statpack did receive two more points of constitution, the sip malus stays, and they are unable to use any armor other than an artifact shield or a buckler without major EQ penalties.

As an athletic templar, you have class buffs plus blessings plus fullplate+kite/artifact shield, natural cutting/blunt resist, and 2 more points of con. Your DPS may not be that much more than a mage's, but you have far more survivability, which is overwhelmingly more important than DPS in PVE.

Edit: With a diadem, my DPS in non-Terrais form rises to 32.2 (105 at 3.26.) Regardless, I still have horribly low survivability and large willpower drain.

Mages don't need tweaking so much as they need to be rebuilt from the ground up. Sure, it's a big task, and sure, there are other classes that need looked at, but Mages are, by a long shot, the most needy.

Delrayne

I'm going to single in on "Mages are, by a long shot, the most needy." first. As was previously stated, the magic circle has recieved the most class redesigns to date. Take a step back, realise that we all know mages need to be rebuilt, and let the love spread elsewhere for a minute. By my count, Demonic is up for the next redesign with Diabs....that being said, that doesn't mean they can't work on two professions at once. It's been done before.

As far as the DPS goes, I'd say you are right at the perfect margin with 27.6. As an outrider I'm right at 27DPS myself as fast statpack and a level 2 artifact speed spear. As with all the circles there are going to be classes that are on the higher end of the DPS wave and some on the lower end.

Juran

We're not taking turns for class redesigns. As far as I'm aware, Garryn just decides what class to do next and lets us know when he's done.

Mage is weaker than Diabolist, and would be my preferred next choice for restructuring. Alchemy should be removed entirely and the profession redesigned to be less linear. If he wanted to touch up necromancy at some later date to revitalize Malignists and Deathknights, I'd be for that too.

Abigail

Alchemy is a weird case since it is technically a tradeskill but it produces items that are strictly circle-based, some of which are hugely important like resist rings (which replicate the effect of priest blessings) and sigils (which consecration, hazewarding, leather grip, etc. are all based on.)

The best solution would probably be just to make sigils and meteor arrows more available and cheaper in magick's general stores (and remove access to them for demonic -- give their profs the ability to create similar effects, like hazeward) and let runeguards etch elemental resistance runes on armour. I sincerely doubt icewall rings and waterwalking boots will be missed.

Lionas

Abigail said:

The simplest solution would probably be just to make sigils and meteor arrows more available and cheaper in general stores, and let runeguards etch elemental resistance runes on armour. I sincerely doubt wall rings and waterwalking boots will be missed.

The valid images for armour are:

Sunburst - the wearer will more effectively strike the vitals of targets
Firestorm - imbues a suit of armour with fire resistance
Blizzard - imbues a suit of armour with cold resistance
Rod - imbues a suit of armour with electrical resistance

EDIT: The circle that gets access to resist rings also already gets access to resist etchings. Demonic gets bupkis

Abigail

Yes, but AFAIK you can only etch one of those per special ingot used in the armor, and there's no magick resistance (which alchemy has.) Mage robes only get one etching.

Should alchemy be removed, the resist ring enchants should be able to be replicated by runeguard etchings.

Juran

You'd  want to give Mages a new tertiary skill like bowmanship or trailblazing that has the important Alchemy items baked into it - so you'd be able to make your circle critical sigils and enchants without it tying up an entire skillset.

Ideally, they'd move a lot of the elemancy defenses over to it too and then scrap both elemancy and crystalism for new skillsets. Crystalism is a tired concept from a different game and no form of it should remain at all. Shaping and weaving elemantal magicks is a good direction, but I'd recast it entirely to be a far more active and interesting skillset.

Also augment needs removed asap - it should have been removed years ago.

Ahkan

Mage has some use to it right now. AoE damage, afflictions, flooding, transfix, icewalls. With a competent team (I know, I know) retardation is deadly. AM in retardation --> spasm, twich, die.

At this point, most everyone admits Mage and Malignist are old and busted. Same reasons, different problems. Your best bet is to cook up a few really good classleads for an instant fix. The problem you're going to run to is that the same people who say "Mages need a redesign" will shoot down any good classleads citing "retardation made me pee my pants." The flip side to that, is people will vote up a nerf to retardation and not replace it with anything worthwhile.

The two gimp classes are on the radar. The most anyone can do now is wait and see what happens. If Garryn and company brew up some new magick with the already obvious 'i weave magick as a mage' role, you're probably in for a treat, because Garryn's classes are off the chain and look fun as hell to play. (Outrider, Shaman, Druid).

Khizan

Class revamps are based on which class needs it the most. They're not doled out evenly among the circles. Magick has received the most because Magick had the classes that were most in need of them.

Mages are worse off than Diabolists and should get the first revamp.

My personal priority list would be:

1. Mage
   
2. Diabolist
   
3. Summoner
   
4. DK/Templar
   

Abigail

Ahkan said:

With a competent team (I know, I know) retardation is deadly. AM in retardation --> spasm, twich, die.

I hate using retardation. I feel like a dick every time I do, because I know I'm not having fun and the other person isn't having fun. It's a terrible skill, the mere usage of it alone causes drama (remember cruel lament?) and forcing a class to rely on an unfun skill to be viable in combat is ridiculous.

I've used it once or twice in team combat to turn the tide in my team's favour, but that's about it. Most of the time when it's embedded someone with bowmanship will just escape and broadspam.

Sarrius

Your own personal guilt over using a skill does not qualify as criteria to evaluate strength or viability.

'It is boring' can be said about many effective things in life.

Abigail

If the only way for a profession to reliably succeed in PVP outside a thousand dollars worth of artifacts is to rely on a massively, horrifyingly overpowered ability (to the point where it has universal hatred even amongst those that use it) then maybe, just maybe, that means that the profession needs to be looked at.

Sarrius

You are arguing a point everybody has conceded, but part of your argument hinges on an emotional appeal that is irrelevant to game balance. Retardation is a miserable skill, but if you can win with it, you can win with the class. That is that. Sure, the skill has to go, but you can't say the class has no one-vs-one ability when you have one of the most powerful skills in the game.

Abigail

My argument does not hinge on emotional appeal and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Just because I mention I don't like something doesn't mean that that's the primary reason why I want it gone.

Sarrius

I said part of, not your entire. You cannot include 'it is boring' or 'I feel dirty using it' when discussing the balance of a class, as those things have no bearing on the class - only on you as a player.

Everybody has conceded that Mages need some form of attention. I don't really see why this thread was necessary when we all generally accept this fact - did you want to highlight that desperate plight of your class again for the X00th time? We all know Mages are a problem, in both extremes. We all know retardation is a miserable skill. We all know Crystalism has zero ground in Magick and Alchemy is paired with Smithing as 'skills that should have been axed 5 years ago'. However, your claims that the class lacks viability is wrong - it merely lacks viability because you do not use retardation as you have some qualm with doing so. The class has access to - in your own words - 'a massively horrifyingly overpowered ability'.. which you know must count for quite a bit, considering your a lobbying for its death in an indirect or even direct fashion.

The class will go on the chopping block after other classes that need it, or perhaps next. Or perhaps never. Classleads will come and go and people who write serious reports might finally succeed in putting down the retardation dog, as well as handing the class some new toys to replace it. I really liked Juran's ideas for a retardation replacement.

Abigail

Please stop being a pedant. Yes, it is mechanically viable. No, it is not practically viable in practice because everyone hates it and it causes more harm than it does good.

Sarrius

Enfeeble/Absolve doesn't actually work - I am relatively sure we classled that out, like all 'heinously powerful skills' (or interactions, in this case) should be.

Abigail

Not the point, and I edited that out seconds before you posted.

Sarrius

Abigail said:

Yes, it is mechanically viable. No, it is not practically viable in practice because everyone hates it and it causes more harm than it does good.

You just contradicted yourself. Is it viable or not? When we discuss class balance, we discuss mechanical viability. The annoyance or hatred of other players should not be a factor. The class is viable in one on one because retardation is (too) powerful. To claim that everybody hates it being the reason why a class isn't powerful is, honestly, ludicrous. As I have continued to state, just because you have misgiving about hitting the enter key with EMBED RETARDATION in your command prompt (and just because it would inspire ire or hatred in your opponent) does not mean that the class is not viable. You are merely hamstringing yourself because you are not using an ability that lets you win. If you refuse to use a hammer, eventually you will run in to problems putting nails in a structure.

EDIT: I would also say I am not being a pedant. I am pointing out an absurd flaw in your argument and you are continuing to use that flaw as a defense with absolutely nothing else to back it up.

Abigail

Sarrius said:

If you refuse to use a hammer, eventually you will run in to problems putting nails in a structure.

If the hammer yelled out racial slurs every time I hit something with it, I would not use it.

Sarrius

Abigail said:

Sarrius said:

If you refuse to use a hammer, eventually you will run in to problems putting nails in a structure.

If the hammer yelled out racial slurs every time I hit something with it, I would not use it.

Irrelevant to the argument. Just because you are too sensitive to hear a few bad words or too stubborn to use the SNUB command (or, heavens forbid, the ISSUE command) does not mean that the hammer shouldn't be used. If you want to build the structure (kill dudes), you have to eventually use the hammer (retardation). That's that.

Abigail

Sarrius said:

Irrelevant to the argument. Just because you are too sensitive to hear a few bad words or too stubborn to use the SNUB command (or, heavens forbid, the ISSUE command) does not mean that the hammer shouldn't be used. If you want to build the structure (kill dudes), you have to eventually use the hammer (retardation). That's that.

If using a tool has a catastrophic side-effect, I will not use it.

Since it is not possible to remove the side-effect, the only other option is to use a different tool.

If there is no other tool available, then I will not build the structure until new tools are available.

Sarrius

Abigail said:

Sarrius said:

Irrelevant to the argument. Just because you are too sensitive to hear a few bad words or too stubborn to use the SNUB command (or, heavens forbid, the ISSUE command) does not mean that the hammer shouldn't be used. If you want to build the structure (kill dudes), you have to eventually use the hammer (retardation). That's that.

If using a tool has a side-effect that I do not desire, I will not use it.

And that is your fault. The side-effect has no mechanical bearing, it is merely a personal objection or intolerance. To further dilute or abuse this metaphor - you refuse to use the hammer because you don't like the sounds it make, and you won't put in earplugs. These are all personal problems, and none of them have bearing or credibility in your argument for mechanical balance. The rest of your argument (while in some places exaggerated) in sound, but there's really nothing else you need to state about it unless your desire is to transition this thread in to a 'Mage Classlead General Thinktank' - which actually ain't a bad idea.

Abigail

I think "using this skill makes everyone hate you in a game where social interaction is one of the most important requirements for being able to do anything" is a valid reason to change the skill.

Sarrius

I think exaggerating is a bad way to get your point across. Plenty of Mages have used retardation without any of the problems you explain. I think if you experience anything like that, it is for a different reason entirely.

Eusto

This thread is going nowhere. We'd all love to remake Mage. Hopefully it happens soon. Hugs and kisses to you and your families.