But I found the typo that caused the bug. I verified that it was why the guards were hitting too hard and that fixing it made them hit not so hard. It should work now like it was supposed to.
Sorry for speaking asteriskese, but the NPC buff makes it that important/froth-inducing.
There are a number of other relics that can be immensely problematic once the Defiance relics get replaced. I probably wouldn't mind seeing relics deactivated during raids unless there are defiling attempts instead of going through a few rounds of "Well, they can't feasibly raid cause of X relic. Time to nerf!" for shrinking, lockdown, banish, mayhem/wraith with incoming ranged, etc.
Aside from Defiance, better than 2:1 odds with inhumes for main targets and an enlighten bot seemed to be just about enough.
The NPC objective actually angers me as implemented, because there are only two possible reasons it got put in as is, and by that, I mean, it is so obviously the sort of thing that is fairly ridiculous as a semi-perma debuff.
Reason 1: Not considered/(gross) oversight and or negligence. Followed by failure to be at all responsive to more subtle/cordial remarks about how problematic it is.
Reason 2: it really is in there to piss us off. It's intentional, and is there as an attempt to get players truly frothed up.
Both anger me greatly and feel DEEPLY disrespectful to players. They feel like absolute proof of everything I have felt over the past year or so. This certainly isn't the "worst" thing that could happen, but looking at it, it's just so clear that there isn't any explanation for WHY things look the way they do here that won't make me very, very angry and insulted.
EDIT: it feels like the sort of thing that (probably?) will eventually get fixed in some way, by the way, but if this isn't an actual, true oversight (which isn't a good thing either), it's exactly the sort of over the top thing you'd do on a rollout and leave in for a bit so that players can worry themselves to death about it. And that does seem to be a thing in some types of games, but it is definitely not why I play Imperian. I play Imperian partly to avoid stuff like that.
This is a PvP game and city conflict is the best way to create PvP conflict. Conflict is created from things that feel important. This is one of the ways that things like obelisks fall flat, they are not important enough. City boundaries feel important, mobs in your city feel important, your guards talking to you feel important (although, I am going to make guard chatting a little less often).
Ultimately it does not really matter though, if you do not want to have to deal with PvP conflict, you do not have to participate. Don't do anything with the raiding system.
However, that is not fun.
Are you losing right now. Yes. But that is mainly because you're not really doing a good job organizing. Khandava and Kinsarmar should not have too much of a problem taking back objectives from Antioch if you group together and plan it out a bit more.
There is some talk on resetting the system, but I am going to refrain from that for now. While there have definitely been bugs that have cropped up as we've gone along, they are (as far as we can tell) fixed now. There maybe some design issues with shrines/relics, but both sides are on equal terms there. I don't think resetting things would have much of an impact at this point.
Are you losing right now. Yes. But that is mainly because you're not really doing a good job organizing. Khandava and Kinsarmar should not have too much of a problem taking back objectives from Antioch if you group together and plan it out a bit more.
Okay. I'm about to get ill when you're going to throw that out there literally after a bug ruined a likely successful raid, disregarding every other problem.
100% not going to participate any more off the last two responses.
E: And I don't agree with Swale that the debuff is a bad idea, just bad in an open beta test. But whatever.
To be super clear, as I stated on the last page, the NPC debuff is fine as an effect that doesn't feel like it could drag on... for a very, very long time. I take issue with it being something it could take orgs a very, very long time to get out from under, and then, they really do need to be able to successfully hang onto the item for a bit or people are just going to go "you know what, this isn't fun at all, and it's not worth it".
So, it's a very strong effect, and packs plenty of punch without being something that could easily take a very, very long time for an org to get out from under. As well, if say, a smallish circle has to build in the odds Gjarrus just laid out to have a good shot at winning, what happens when Antioch turns around and brings their full force?
By the way, I personally care a lot less about whiny city guards. The way I see it, give me that over a mechanical debuff every time. Then again, it does matter to some people, and it's exactly the sort of thing that is funny, and maybe even motivating for a little bit. And then, if it drags on too long, it probably won't be.
I also said a few pages ago or so that I really, really wished we'd been turned loose on the test server for this, because hooo boy...
EDIT: basically, I was really excited about the kind of raiding we're doing/discussing here when I still (very, very naively) believed it was possible to have pretty evenly matched factions in an IRE game. Instead, if anything, let's say demonic or magick becomes the new heavy (just so people won't get overly focused on Antioch rather than the larger point I am getting at). That faction would be the heavy and would tend to smash the other factions. That faction will do most of the offensive raids. Certainly most of the offensive raids that succeed. The point is, there is almost always -A- heavy, and they're usually more than just a little bit dominant. That's especially true in a system like we've got right now, that doesn't take that sort of thing into consideration. And with raiding, I think that's so important.
Well, except between 2 or 3 cities/councils you have two or three times the number of raids per day against Antioch. They can literally not keep up if you can get organized.
Breaking circle lines should be an exception, not a rule. Even then, that's not a solution. Guard killing isn't an option, and you literally just put in raider number scaling for the debuff. They *can* keep up. If you mean that we'd have more chances to look for weak population points and see if we succeed, see the 80 comments on timezone warrioring <- that way, and Demonic absolutely looks around the clock already.
We'll see how this 'live and let live' relic idea goes, though. Sure it'll be k.
I did not say we are not going to adjust the shrines and relics. I said we were not going to reset the system because of them as both sides have the same options available. We are currently discussing possible changes for while raids happen.
But I found the typo that caused the bug. I verified that it was why the guards were hitting too hard and that fixing it made them hit not so hard. It should work now like it was supposed to.
This is a PvP game and city conflict is the best way to create PvP conflict. Conflict is created from things that feel important. This is one of the ways that things like obelisks fall flat, they are not important enough. City boundaries feel important, mobs in your city feel important, your guards talking to you feel important (although, I am going to make guard chatting a little less often).
Ultimately it does not really matter though, if you do not want to have to deal with PvP conflict, you do not have to participate. Don't do anything with the raiding system.
However, that is not fun.
Are you losing right now. Yes. But that is mainly because you're not really doing a good job organizing. Khandava and Kinsarmar should not have too much of a problem taking back objectives from Antioch if you group together and plan it out a bit more.
Wow, I just.
I am trying so hard to get back into Imperian. I want to like this game. I've invested an awful lot of time, energy, and money here.
This chain of conversation has me seriously wondering why I'd even bother.
Player: "There's a bug that's making successful raiding frustrating/nigh impossible."
Coder: "Why yes, there it is. I have fixed it." <-- This is pretty okay. Honestly, bugs happen. Own it and fix it and move on with life.
Producer: "Suck less, newbs. Don't participate if you don't like it." <-- What the actual.
I don't want to participate in the pvp. It has ALWAYS been my least exciting part of this game. The last 4 years (really, longer, but especially then) have stripped all the enjoyment out of other elements of the game for me. It's hard to RP when other players are just a lot less into it. It's hard to do politics when the game has stripped everything down to a black and white environment. It's hard to bother with crafting when there's no real reward (both monetarily and for RP purposes). Bashing/questing has never been good. Never. What's left IS pvp. If you play and you don't want to mindlessly bash, you participate in raids and other pvp events.
So when I see players producing legit complaints against the current model of pvp, which does need work, and the admin response is lolnewbs, that is just impressively terrible customer service and community management. If you lose the pkers too, what will be left in Imperian?
Conflict is shallow right now because the game is shallow. That's partly but not wholly on the playerbase. It would be stellar if the administration acknowledged that they have a role in creating an environment that IS dynamic, that DOES create objectives that feel important, that helps create a vibrant playerbase that is engaged in the game and it's collective storytelling. You aren't. And this post was a casual backhand to the face of that fact. The only thing that would make it worse is if you decided to pitch another overpriced, pointless trinket in there while you were at it.
Please do better, Jeremy. I wanna get back to being ridiculously excited about Imperian and telling all my friends about it and sending you my hard earned cash.
I'm not sure what you mean. This is a completely optional system. You do not have to participate and you lose nothing if you stay out of it. You do not have to do any PvP.
The system is currently evenly balanced. Both sides have the same advantages and disadvantages.
The relic/shrine system may need to be adjusted, but it is even on both sides. It will be something that we are taking a hard look at right now.
Right now, the main difference is that one side is better organized. This system was purposely designed to allow people to attack at off hours and to team up with other cities in temporary alliances to raid.
@mirela I think we have made it very clear that we do acknowledge the role of making objectives that feel important. If players did not feel these objectives were important, they would not be working so hard to get them. We would not be having most of this conversation. Swale has made that very clear in her posts that she thinks they are very important. We are also working on making obelisks much more important in the game (see my other post)
If I came across as saying 'lolnewbs' I apologize. Trust me, we want to make this as fair as possible for everyone involved. Raiding objectives should be a challenge to get, but not impossible, especially if you time your raids when there are few (or no) defenders.
More important is not always more better. If you really, truly don't get that, and don't get what I've been trying to say, you really are going to fly this jet straight into the ground. None of us want that, by the way, because there isn't a player in this thread that doesn't have ridiculous amounts of time, effort and money invested.
EDIT: trying one more time, because I just... why is this so hard? You are always, always always going to have stronger factions and weaker factions at any given moment. It can shift, but that takes time, and in the moment... you are still always going to have relatively powerful factions, and relatively weaker ones. If you don't have that situation for a shining moment, that's a huge exception. If you do not build a system like raiding taking that into account, it is going to end especially badly.
@Jeremy - The problem is that if you want to PLAY Imperian, right now, you have to engage in the pvp system. There's nothing else to do. When people come to you with complaints and your response is, "If you don't like it, don't participate." That's a problem.
That should never be the response to people saying, "This system isn't working and it's making it not fun to play."
You literally responded to an issue with a bug by telling players not to play if they don't like it and that if they'd just plan better, everything would be fine.
The bug is clearly not the only issue in this, there are other problems inherent in the raiding system that have been discussed. It isn't as simple as better organization. Dismissing concerns with that is really frustrating for players who are already very frustrated.
We're not giving up on raids, let's be clear there. And yes, we do have fewer numbers and we are less organized overall as a team. That doesn't keep us from trying again, and again, and again. There were a couple raids where we were really close to succeeding, and then we didn't because of our own errors. And then there were a whole host of them where we were absolutely trying our damnedest to use every advantage (more people, no defenders, dual raids) and just about every one of those times, we were met with some kind of bug that halted our progress when we definitely had a clear path to victory. There were also a couple of bugs that hampered our ability to defend successfully, but it is what it is. We're trying to deal with each setback as well as we can.
As far as coordinating with Kinsarmar goes, they haven't shown a supreme interest in working with us. We can try to redouble our efforts on that front, but to me it feels like a last resort, not a first or even second or third one. We're going to keep doing what we're doing, though, and hope that the literal only thing stopping us is error on our part, and not code that just won't give us a break. It's tiring, and I know the feeling is mutual. We don't mean to sound ungrateful and whiny and terrible. We want to make this cool new system work, too.
I've mostly refrained from chiming in here, but I just want to throw a few quick thoughts out there. These are in no particular order, and likely wont have a ton of coherence. with that said:
I think we have made it very clear that we do acknowledge the role of making objectives that feel important. If players did not feel these objectives were important, they would not be working so hard to get them.
There is only one objective actively worth having and it's the tutor, I personally don't mind the tutor on either end of it, but I'm almost always (if not always) open PK, and as such just used to the idea that someone might walk up and try to kill me. I'd actually prefer not being able to take every objective from a city (limit me to some number greater than 1, but less than the maximum objectives) but there being some choice as to what I want to take, if you were to implement that now, Antioch would hold everyone's tutors, and then only raid because we find it fun, but not actually care if we got the objective.
@Mirela The problem about PvP being the only thing left to do may be valid (personally I know of a number of people that enjoy bashing, and several others who think RP is alive and well out there) but this is probably not the place to discuss it.
There's a lot of talk about bugs and them being dismissed as a problem. I haven't experienced every single bug raiding has to offer, but I would venture to guess that I've been on the receiving end of a vast majority of them. People are getting upset because @Jeremy is saying you're less organized, claiming that the bug in this case was the only reason you failed. That may be true, but the backlash after the bug is the real problem. If the bug was the only reason you failed, and you have now succeeded in organizing as well as AM, show us (and for that matter the world) by doing the same thing tomorrow now that the bug is fixed. If the bug was all that was wrong, you shouldn't have a problem succeeding, otherwise, maybe the suggestion has some merit.
'Organizing' is 90% jargon for having population. That's it. We 'organized' today because I called a raid based on the available numbers. Beyond that, it's 'block forward/wall otherwise, kill defenders, move objective, move to objective, repeat'. I have zero control over who I have available, and that is absolutely the largest determinant in a raid. There is room in that 10% for us to improve, certainly, but 'It's okay guys, just come raid!' is condescending af like we haven't been taking raid opportunities.
E: Oh look at Antioch 'organizing' now because they have a pop advantage. Much strategery, how u do?
You literally responded to an issue with a bug by telling players not to play if they don't like it and that if they'd just plan better, everything would be fine.
I don't think I said that, and if it came across that way, I'm sorry.
I said it is balanced system right now and if you don't like what raiding has to offer, then you do not have to use it. You specifically said you don't like PK, so you really don't need to use it. There are other things you can do.
If there is a bug that is breaking the system, we will fix it and I will not just say, too bad.
'Organizing' is 90% jargon for having population. That's it. We 'organized' today because I called a raid based on the available numbers. Beyond that, it's 'block forward/wall otherwise, kill defenders, move objective, move to objective, repeat'. I have zero control over who I have available, and that is absolutely the largest determinant in a raid. There is room in that 10% for us to improve, certainly, but 'It's okay guys, just come raid!' is condescending af like we haven't been taking raid opportunities.
E: Oh look at Antioch 'organizing' now because they have a pop advantage. Much strategery, how u do?
I see your point on this, and I agree that the system works like that now. That is the case in virtually every PvP system in most games (outside of arenas).
When I say get organized, I mean talk to people in your city (or cities), get other people to help, plan a time of day, meet at that time so that you have the population advantage, and deal some death. It should be possible for 2 or 3 people to get an objective from another city if no players are defending them.
I guess I need to know if you're saying that no matter what, you will never have the numbers or skills to win. Is is just too hard to raid because of the guards and other defenses, or because of the players? If you're always being beat because of guards and defenses and not because of the enemy player, that is something we can continue to adjust and iterate on.
This has been fun to read. I don't have much to say for fixes, but I do want to observe something to the administrators:
The majority of the players who have participated in raids from the beginning are frustrated to the point of apathy. In this thread alone you've had three individuals, who are all people to leap on PvP opportunities, express their frustration to the point of wanting to opt out of the system entirely. All of these people are in Demonic/Magick. In Theophilus' case, I mostly just want to pat him on the back and welcome him to the raiding system, since he joined in quite a while after we'd been bashing our heads against the dozens of bugs that have been uncovered. Maybe things are to a functional point right now. That's an exciting prospect in theory, but the means to that ends has been wearing down the patience and enthusiasm of the people who were eager to pick up this system from the start and play with it.
I don't want to criticize the administration at all, especially after going through the effort creating and putting out this system that works enough that people care about enough to get angry. That said, I think that we deserve a bit more credit owed to us and our opinions that are exclusive from mechanical functionality. Everyone's gotten mad. Every single circle has failed at least 1 raid because of a bug - and those of us at a disadvantage have fewer opportunities and greater investment in these failures because we can't just log on tomorrow and do over. As you said, @Jeremy, it does require organization and planning. We haven't bothered seriously raiding since Kinsarmar lost 8 v 2 in Antioch - which we planned for downtime hours (still garbage). Yes, we made a few mistakes and Antioch had some very good strategies up their sleeves we did not anticipate or recover from, but at the same time... we lost 8 v 2, at the downtimiest downtime we could manage for people shifting their sleep schedules to wake up early or stay up late etc. It's our fault, fine. It's happened to all of us exclusive from bugs. But to what ends is that continued effort when we'd have to do that consistently to even keep our own objectives? Why should we do more cross-circle mingling, which was fun during the shade event, but with raiding will mean a constant alliance, not an interesting event, but something we will have to stay vigilant with every. single. day.
I'm personally not sore. I don't have any insight further than the contributions I've already made. I do want to say I've enjoyed not being raided and not raiding (edit: over the last couple of weeks. It's been a much needed break from something I was very up close & personal with but have enjoyed very much) because it's been a real headache this entire process. I also want to say that @Swale is exactly the reason I've never hit the point where I want to opt out of raiding, because of her decision TO take things seriously to the point of reading over logs to find ways to improve and strategize. It's like... a good thing?
I understand the attitude the admin have, and I can easily see how our frustration sounds like losers crying and expecting fairness and winsies where fairness and winsies are frankly not possible; but we happy few were genuinely disadvantaged mechanically for quite a while and now we're in a spot where our only recourse to recover from that is to create a 2-circle game indefinitely and still roll the dice at our efficacy? And that is how the system looks like it is going to work forever? And the tone of this news from the admin/@Jeremy isn't exactly inspiring.
But as I said, I don't really have any suggested fixes (edit: and I honestly don't think a reset will help), but I do know that the situation began out of our control mechanically and the aggravation and many of the inherent design disadvantages have not dissipated now that it is more balanced. I think Antioch and admin should keep that in mind. Especially when addressing individuals.
tldr; I have no input for changes but like 1000 words about perspective.
You say, "This is much harder than just being a normal person."
They are possible, excluding some of the more obnoxious defensive things that are lurking for a rainy day.
Because of the timer and guards, you need a squad that can move the objective successfully while handling enemy defenders with minimal pushing downtime; after all, it's just an objective-based team fight. The 2-3 vs none scenario fulfills both conditions there. It's rare that I see no one who would fight in AM even when I go to sleep around 12a PST and wake up at 4:30a + something something timezone warrioring is boring, so I'm going to ignore that scenario and assume defenders exist. Magick will usually have someone who might try, but their fighter coverage is lacking despite the mass of blue always on qw.
Given defenders only have to stall out 10:05 to end a raid assuming the normalized times hit around 10m, it's best if you literally can just stomp them into the dirt if you want to bother raiding. One wipe is pushing the timer into a danger zone, and the respawn differential from defenders not having to bypass entryway guards means you are in an unfavorable war of attrition. A full wipe is disastrous as far as actually completing the objective goes (even with onyx, re-entry requires infiltration, which usually means I have to phase and sukhder). ((With the shard attune changing up, even getting into the raid is going to be prof/arti dependent))
I said it earlier: having better than 2:1 odds and a fast kill seemed like it would be enough, since that's what we needed to reliably advance the objective in a timely manner. It was okay to spend a few seconds killing someone since we lost no time on the push, for the most part. It also afforded us enough leeway to eat a death or two and some separation without a full wipe. Defiant guards were just
I've been in and out as I wrote this and it's a busy time of day for me, but I think that sums it up for me?
@Theophilu, I usually agree with you, but that comment is very harmful to this community. If we want to cultivate an environment where we are welcoming to all types of players we need to understand that some things are more important to certain players than others.
I could give 2 f's about combat, but I'll drop 1K credits on a dumb artifact pet for RP. I have and I'd do it again.
@Swale, from every post I have seen is passionate about raiding. She's into that. So yeah, she's going to feel certain things are important. It isn't bad to have passionate players. It's these types of players that will reach out to newbies and welcome them in, these players who will go that extra mile when it comes to bringing a creative item or RP event to the game, and these types of players that ultimately come back to fill this virtual world we play in.
Slightly OT, so I apologize, but I hate seeing this type of attitude because it really hurts this game.
You say, "Oh crap." You say, "My bottle is empty." Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly. Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
Jeremy - I didn't even chime in yet when you made the comment about not PKing if you don't like to PK. I responded to it. I have not enjoyed PK in the past. I HAVE started to see merit in it in recent years. The player culture around PK has improved and the game has made it a lot more accessible to players who don't thrill to spending hours coding around issues. I'd love to come back and get engaged. I'm really trying. So consider that my perspective should matter in this discussion as someone who is -trying- to love this game again. I'm the audience you want to attract to build Imperian instead of cling to the few remaining steady players.
It's also pretty laughably ridiculous to suggest that the answer is getting Magic to join up with Demonic, all things considered. Including the built-in systems designed to discourage cross-circle PK. Ya'll have spent literally years coming down on cross-circle interactions and now suddenly we should consider that the sensible option. Pick a position.
(And I'm not going to get into the issues with other areas of the game's play. I could write a dissertation on that subject. I basically have, at various points in the last few years.)
TL;DR - I wanna play. I wanna raid. I wanna see the admin take in commentary about bugs and go, "Yea, I see. We'll handle it. Thanks."
Allllso - I wanna say that I -like- the concept behind the raiding system. I actually had fun engaging in it without the buggy stuff. It's the first time in a long time I've enjoyed group PK. Yanno, wrapping the bad news up in a puppy. There's potential here, just tweak and consider responses.
I definitely care, which is just about the most unfashionable thing to actually show in an IRE game (Gjarrus does too, which I don't consider a bad thing). A lot of people care quite a bit though. I mean, with how much time and effort people put into the game, how can they not?
That also means that while yeah, you want players to feel some kind of sense of urgency in the moment, and a good system strives for that kind of effect, I don't think you need to actually break out the hot irons to get players to jump. In fact, it can backfire. Anyway, thanks Oystir and Wyll, meant a lot to me to see that someone sort of gets how some of us feel about things.
I sympathise with demonic regarding the defiance. I thought they had probably got that objective. We know how it is to fail raids due to bugs: the rage is real.
Magick raided once and it was a disaster. So was everyone elses first raid. I get the impression that people have convinced themselves it just isn't doable. The reality is that Am's first raid was just as bad. So was Demonic's.
@Oystir's points (but universally applicable): No circle is more mechanically disadvantaged than anyone else. Everyone is working with the same tools. I like pretty much everyone in the other circles, but I'm not going to avoid hurting your feelings because you feel Antioch is mean for stealing your toys. Neither is anyone else in Antioch. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, but I imagine noone is surprised so moving on!
Someone should also try raiding with more people online. I hadn't actually thought about this until the last page, but the guard debuff might actually be substantial enough to make raiding vs a small defence group less optimal. Hard to say (and it probably depends on who the defenders are in said larger group). Time FOR SCIENCE.
Cross circle isn't really something that interests me personally, but there's definite pressident if two sides are two outmatched. There was a good six month period of it last year, and at least one major instance the year before. Probably more during events, but those tend to operate under slightly different social rules than normal day to day, so can probably exclude those. I don't honestly think the other two circles are outmatched to that degree though - we've mostly been very lucky with raids (sorry Demonic, my dog woke me up for the 8 AM gmt one and I heard the wardrums as I walked passed the computer to go back to bed).
Agree that relics in the context of raids should be looked at. There is a ton of crazy raid synergy with them, and someone will use it. Using relics I know I could make Antioch 100% unraidable with someone online to activate and probably unraidable with 0 intervention depending on the group.
Comments
E: Can we at least get a reset and/or NPC objectives turned off until the 8080932478917491234 bugs are actually fixed?
to this:
is ow.
But I found the typo that caused the bug. I verified that it was why the guards were hitting too hard and that fixing it made them hit not so hard. It should work now like it was supposed to.
There are a number of other relics that can be immensely problematic once the Defiance relics get replaced. I probably wouldn't mind seeing relics deactivated during raids unless there are defiling attempts instead of going through a few rounds of "Well, they can't feasibly raid cause of X relic. Time to nerf!" for shrinking, lockdown, banish, mayhem/wraith with incoming ranged, etc.
Aside from Defiance, better than 2:1 odds with inhumes for main targets and an enlighten bot seemed to be just about enough.
Reason 1: Not considered/(gross) oversight and or negligence. Followed by failure to be at all responsive to more subtle/cordial remarks about how problematic it is.
Reason 2: it really is in there to piss us off. It's intentional, and is there as an attempt to get players truly frothed up.
Both anger me greatly and feel DEEPLY disrespectful to players. They feel like absolute proof of everything I have felt over the past year or so. This certainly isn't the "worst" thing that could happen, but looking at it, it's just so clear that there isn't any explanation for WHY things look the way they do here that won't make me very, very angry and insulted.
EDIT: it feels like the sort of thing that (probably?) will eventually get fixed in some way, by the way, but if this isn't an actual, true oversight (which isn't a good thing either), it's exactly the sort of over the top thing you'd do on a rollout and leave in for a bit so that players can worry themselves to death about it. And that does seem to be a thing in some types of games, but it is definitely not why I play Imperian. I play Imperian partly to avoid stuff like that.
Ultimately it does not really matter though, if you do not want to have to deal with PvP conflict, you do not have to participate. Don't do anything with the raiding system.
However, that is not fun.
Are you losing right now. Yes. But that is mainly because you're not really doing a good job organizing. Khandava and Kinsarmar should not have too much of a problem taking back objectives from Antioch if you group together and plan it out a bit more.
Okay. I'm about to get ill when you're going to throw that out there literally after a bug ruined a likely successful raid, disregarding every other problem.
100% not going to participate any more off the last two responses.
E: And I don't agree with Swale that the debuff is a bad idea, just bad in an open beta test. But whatever.
So, it's a very strong effect, and packs plenty of punch without being something that could easily take a very, very long time for an org to get out from under. As well, if say, a smallish circle has to build in the odds Gjarrus just laid out to have a good shot at winning, what happens when Antioch turns around and brings their full force?
By the way, I personally care a lot less about whiny city guards. The way I see it, give me that over a mechanical debuff every time. Then again, it does matter to some people, and it's exactly the sort of thing that is funny, and maybe even motivating for a little bit. And then, if it drags on too long, it probably won't be.
I also said a few pages ago or so that I really, really wished we'd been turned loose on the test server for this, because hooo boy...
EDIT: basically, I was really excited about the kind of raiding we're doing/discussing here when I still (very, very naively) believed it was possible to have pretty evenly matched factions in an IRE game. Instead, if anything, let's say demonic or magick becomes the new heavy (just so people won't get overly focused on Antioch rather than the larger point I am getting at). That faction would be the heavy and would tend to smash the other factions. That faction will do most of the offensive raids. Certainly most of the offensive raids that succeed. The point is, there is almost always -A- heavy, and they're usually more than just a little bit dominant. That's especially true in a system like we've got right now, that doesn't take that sort of thing into consideration. And with raiding, I think that's so important.
If you mean that we'd have more chances to look for weak population points and see if we succeed, see the 80 comments on timezone warrioring <- that way, and Demonic absolutely looks around the clock already.
We'll see how this 'live and let live' relic idea goes, though. Sure it'll be k.
I am trying so hard to get back into Imperian. I want to like this game. I've invested an awful lot of time, energy, and money here.
This chain of conversation has me seriously wondering why I'd even bother.
Player: "There's a bug that's making successful raiding frustrating/nigh impossible."
Coder: "Why yes, there it is. I have fixed it." <-- This is pretty okay. Honestly, bugs happen. Own it and fix it and move on with life.
Producer: "Suck less, newbs. Don't participate if you don't like it." <-- What the actual.
I don't want to participate in the pvp. It has ALWAYS been my least exciting part of this game. The last 4 years (really, longer, but especially then) have stripped all the enjoyment out of other elements of the game for me. It's hard to RP when other players are just a lot less into it. It's hard to do politics when the game has stripped everything down to a black and white environment. It's hard to bother with crafting when there's no real reward (both monetarily and for RP purposes). Bashing/questing has never been good. Never. What's left IS pvp. If you play and you don't want to mindlessly bash, you participate in raids and other pvp events.
So when I see players producing legit complaints against the current model of pvp, which does need work, and the admin response is lolnewbs, that is just impressively terrible customer service and community management. If you lose the pkers too, what will be left in Imperian?
Conflict is shallow right now because the game is shallow. That's partly but not wholly on the playerbase. It would be stellar if the administration acknowledged that they have a role in creating an environment that IS dynamic, that DOES create objectives that feel important, that helps create a vibrant playerbase that is engaged in the game and it's collective storytelling. You aren't. And this post was a casual backhand to the face of that fact. The only thing that would make it worse is if you decided to pitch another overpriced, pointless trinket in there while you were at it.
Please do better, Jeremy. I wanna get back to being ridiculously excited about Imperian and telling all my friends about it and sending you my hard earned cash.
The system is currently evenly balanced. Both sides have the same advantages and disadvantages.
The relic/shrine system may need to be adjusted, but it is even on both sides. It will be something that we are taking a hard look at right now.
Right now, the main difference is that one side is better organized. This system was purposely designed to allow people to attack at off hours and to team up with other cities in temporary alliances to raid.
@mirela I think we have made it very clear that we do acknowledge the role of making objectives that feel important. If players did not feel these objectives were important, they would not be working so hard to get them. We would not be having most of this conversation. Swale has made that very clear in her posts that she thinks they are very important. We are also working on making obelisks much more important in the game (see my other post)
If I came across as saying 'lolnewbs' I apologize. Trust me, we want to make this as fair as possible for everyone involved. Raiding objectives should be a challenge to get, but not impossible, especially if you time your raids when there are few (or no) defenders.
EDIT: trying one more time, because I just... why is this so hard? You are always, always always going to have stronger factions and weaker factions at any given moment. It can shift, but that takes time, and in the moment... you are still always going to have relatively powerful factions, and relatively weaker ones. If you don't have that situation for a shining moment, that's a huge exception. If you do not build a system like raiding taking that into account, it is going to end especially badly.
That should never be the response to people saying, "This system isn't working and it's making it not fun to play."
You literally responded to an issue with a bug by telling players not to play if they don't like it and that if they'd just plan better, everything would be fine.
The bug is clearly not the only issue in this, there are other problems inherent in the raiding system that have been discussed. It isn't as simple as better organization. Dismissing concerns with that is really frustrating for players who are already very frustrated.
As far as coordinating with Kinsarmar goes, they haven't shown a supreme interest in working with us. We can try to redouble our efforts on that front, but to me it feels like a last resort, not a first or even second or third one. We're going to keep doing what we're doing, though, and hope that the literal only thing stopping us is error on our part, and not code that just won't give us a break. It's tiring, and I know the feeling is mutual. We don't mean to sound ungrateful and whiny and terrible. We want to make this cool new system work, too.
There is only one objective actively worth having and it's the tutor, I personally don't mind the tutor on either end of it, but I'm almost always (if not always) open PK, and as such just used to the idea that someone might walk up and try to kill me. I'd actually prefer not being able to take every objective from a city (limit me to some number greater than 1, but less than the maximum objectives) but there being some choice as to what I want to take, if you were to implement that now, Antioch would hold everyone's tutors, and then only raid because we find it fun, but not actually care if we got the objective.
@Mirela The problem about PvP being the only thing left to do may be valid (personally I know of a number of people that enjoy bashing, and several others who think RP is alive and well out there) but this is probably not the place to discuss it.
There's a lot of talk about bugs and them being dismissed as a problem. I haven't experienced every single bug raiding has to offer, but I would venture to guess that I've been on the receiving end of a vast majority of them. People are getting upset because @Jeremy is saying you're less organized, claiming that the bug in this case was the only reason you failed. That may be true, but the backlash after the bug is the real problem. If the bug was the only reason you failed, and you have now succeeded in organizing as well as AM, show us (and for that matter the world) by doing the same thing tomorrow now that the bug is fixed. If the bug was all that was wrong, you shouldn't have a problem succeeding, otherwise, maybe the suggestion has some merit.
E: Oh look at Antioch 'organizing' now because they have a pop advantage. Much strategery, how u do?
Swale thinks -everything- is important.. literally everything. Js.
(Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."
(Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
I said it is balanced system right now and if you don't like what raiding has to offer, then you do not have to use it. You specifically said you don't like PK, so you really don't need to use it. There are other things you can do.
If there is a bug that is breaking the system, we will fix it and I will not just say, too bad.
I see your point on this, and I agree that the system works like that now. That is the case in virtually every PvP system in most games (outside of arenas).
When I say get organized, I mean talk to people in your city (or cities), get other people to help, plan a time of day, meet at that time so that you have the population advantage, and deal some death. It should be possible for 2 or 3 people to get an objective from another city if no players are defending them.
I guess I need to know if you're saying that no matter what, you will never have the numbers or skills to win. Is is just too hard to raid because of the guards and other defenses, or because of the players? If you're always being beat because of guards and defenses and not because of the enemy player, that is something we can continue to adjust and iterate on.
The majority of the players who have participated in raids from the beginning are frustrated to the point of apathy. In this thread alone you've had three individuals, who are all people to leap on PvP opportunities, express their frustration to the point of wanting to opt out of the system entirely. All of these people are in Demonic/Magick. In Theophilus' case, I mostly just want to pat him on the back and welcome him to the raiding system, since he joined in quite a while after we'd been bashing our heads against the dozens of bugs that have been uncovered. Maybe things are to a functional point right now. That's an exciting prospect in theory, but the means to that ends has been wearing down the patience and enthusiasm of the people who were eager to pick up this system from the start and play with it.
I don't want to criticize the administration at all, especially after going through the effort creating and putting out this system that works enough that people care about enough to get angry. That said, I think that we deserve a bit more credit owed to us and our opinions that are exclusive from mechanical functionality. Everyone's gotten mad. Every single circle has failed at least 1 raid because of a bug - and those of us at a disadvantage have fewer opportunities and greater investment in these failures because we can't just log on tomorrow and do over. As you said, @Jeremy, it does require organization and planning. We haven't bothered seriously raiding since Kinsarmar lost 8 v 2 in Antioch - which we planned for downtime hours (still garbage). Yes, we made a few mistakes and Antioch had some very good strategies up their sleeves we did not anticipate or recover from, but at the same time... we lost 8 v 2, at the downtimiest downtime we could manage for people shifting their sleep schedules to wake up early or stay up late etc. It's our fault, fine. It's happened to all of us exclusive from bugs. But to what ends is that continued effort when we'd have to do that consistently to even keep our own objectives? Why should we do more cross-circle mingling, which was fun during the shade event, but with raiding will mean a constant alliance, not an interesting event, but something we will have to stay vigilant with every. single. day.
I'm personally not sore. I don't have any insight further than the contributions I've already made. I do want to say I've enjoyed not being raided and not raiding (edit: over the last couple of weeks. It's been a much needed break from something I was very up close & personal with but have enjoyed very much) because it's been a real headache this entire process. I also want to say that @Swale is exactly the reason I've never hit the point where I want to opt out of raiding, because of her decision TO take things seriously to the point of reading over logs to find ways to improve and strategize. It's like... a good thing?
I understand the attitude the admin have, and I can easily see how our frustration sounds like losers crying and expecting fairness and winsies where fairness and winsies are frankly not possible; but we happy few were genuinely disadvantaged mechanically for quite a while and now we're in a spot where our only recourse to recover from that is to create a 2-circle game indefinitely and still roll the dice at our efficacy? And that is how the system looks like it is going to work forever? And the tone of this news from the admin/@Jeremy isn't exactly inspiring.
But as I said, I don't really have any suggested fixes (edit: and I honestly don't think a reset will help), but I do know that the situation began out of our control mechanically and the aggravation and many of the inherent design disadvantages have not dissipated now that it is more balanced. I think Antioch and admin should keep that in mind. Especially when addressing individuals.
tldr; I have no input for changes but like 1000 words about perspective.
Because of the timer and guards, you need a squad that can move the objective successfully while handling enemy defenders with minimal pushing downtime; after all, it's just an objective-based team fight. The 2-3 vs none scenario fulfills both conditions there. It's rare that I see no one who would fight in AM even when I go to sleep around 12a PST and wake up at 4:30a + something something timezone warrioring is boring, so I'm going to ignore that scenario and assume defenders exist. Magick will usually have someone who might try, but their fighter coverage is lacking despite the mass of blue always on qw.
Given defenders only have to stall out 10:05 to end a raid assuming the normalized times hit around 10m, it's best if you literally can just stomp them into the dirt if you want to bother raiding. One wipe is pushing the timer into a danger zone, and the respawn differential from defenders not having to bypass entryway guards means you are in an unfavorable war of attrition. A full wipe is disastrous as far as actually completing the objective goes (even with onyx, re-entry requires infiltration, which usually means I have to phase and sukhder). ((With the shard attune changing up, even getting into the raid is going to be prof/arti dependent))
I said it earlier: having better than 2:1 odds and a fast kill seemed like it would be enough, since that's what we needed to reliably advance the objective in a timely manner. It was okay to spend a few seconds killing someone since we lost no time on the push, for the most part. It also afforded us enough leeway to eat a death or two and some separation without a full wipe. Defiant guards were just
I've been in and out as I wrote this and it's a busy time of day for me, but I think that sums it up for me?
I could give 2 f's about combat, but I'll drop 1K credits on a dumb artifact pet for RP. I have and I'd do it again.
@Swale, from every post I have seen is passionate about raiding. She's into that. So yeah, she's going to feel certain things are important. It isn't bad to have passionate players. It's these types of players that will reach out to newbies and welcome them in, these players who will go that extra mile when it comes to bringing a creative item or RP event to the game, and these types of players that ultimately come back to fill this virtual world we play in.
Slightly OT, so I apologize, but I hate seeing this type of attitude because it really hurts this game.
You say, "My bottle is empty."
Jeremy raises an eyebrow questioningly.
Jeremy slaps you on the cheek.
It's also pretty laughably ridiculous to suggest that the answer is getting Magic to join up with Demonic, all things considered. Including the built-in systems designed to discourage cross-circle PK. Ya'll have spent literally years coming down on cross-circle interactions and now suddenly we should consider that the sensible option. Pick a position.
(And I'm not going to get into the issues with other areas of the game's play. I could write a dissertation on that subject. I basically have, at various points in the last few years.)
TL;DR - I wanna play. I wanna raid. I wanna see the admin take in commentary about bugs and go, "Yea, I see. We'll handle it. Thanks."
That also means that while yeah, you want players to feel some kind of sense of urgency in the moment, and a good system strives for that kind of effect, I don't think you need to actually break out the hot irons to get players to jump. In fact, it can backfire. Anyway, thanks Oystir and Wyll, meant a lot to me to see that someone sort of gets how some of us feel about things.
So, going to chip in here.
I sympathise with demonic regarding the defiance. I thought they had probably got that objective. We know how it is to fail raids due to bugs: the rage is real.
Magick raided once and it was a disaster. So was everyone elses first raid. I get the impression that people have convinced themselves it just isn't doable. The reality is that Am's first raid was just as bad. So was Demonic's.
@Oystir's points (but universally applicable): No circle is more mechanically disadvantaged than anyone else. Everyone is working with the same tools. I like pretty much everyone in the other circles, but I'm not going to avoid hurting your feelings because you feel Antioch is mean for stealing your toys. Neither is anyone else in Antioch. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, but I imagine noone is surprised so moving on!
Someone should also try raiding with more people online. I hadn't actually thought about this until the last page, but the guard debuff might actually be substantial enough to make raiding vs a small defence group less optimal. Hard to say (and it probably depends on who the defenders are in said larger group). Time FOR SCIENCE.
Cross circle isn't really something that interests me personally, but there's definite pressident if two sides are two outmatched. There was a good six month period of it last year, and at least one major instance the year before. Probably more during events, but those tend to operate under slightly different social rules than normal day to day, so can probably exclude those. I don't honestly think the other two circles are outmatched to that degree though - we've mostly been very lucky with raids (sorry Demonic, my dog woke me up for the 8 AM gmt one and I heard the wardrums as I walked passed the computer to go back to bed).
Agree that relics in the context of raids should be looked at. There is a ton of crazy raid synergy with them, and someone will use it. Using relics I know I could make Antioch 100% unraidable with someone online to activate and probably unraidable with 0 intervention depending on the group.