We actually had a tiny population going into the event. We just picked up a ton of people as we started winning/people came out of dormancy to see what the fuss was about.
We actually had a tiny population going into the event. We just picked up a ton of people as we started winning/people came out of dormancy to see what the fuss was about.
You have to be reallistic about these things.
You sir, have no right to invoke that hero. Go find a Gorst quote
“We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
We actually had a tiny population going into the event. We just picked up a ton of people as we started winning/people came out of dormancy to see what the fuss was about.
You have to be reallistic about these things.
I'm not claiming otherwise - and that's pretty much how the progression of the event went. The first few plagues were real contentions, and the rest were just communal sighs of exhaustion. Claiming demonic and magick 'choked' is pretty disingenuous because people were trying up until the very end, and just really had no shot at that point. I think Antioch has pretty much every 'aggressive' PKer in their hands now, which makes any counter action besides turtling up pretty unlikely.
If a system is based around having participation on both sides, it might take awhile to see it lift off of the ground, with the current state of things.
I think this is pretty neat, but I'm probably going to opt-out of this whole system just like I do with the Champion bit. I do like killing all of the plague creatures, and I really wish it would give me a quest honors if I manage to kill all of them.
I'll stop making quotes with Eldreth and try to be constructive, I suppose. We shall continue this later, @Eldreth!
Frankly, @Wysrias, we have the aggressive pkers because we take an aggressive stance on everything. I have never known one of the seriously aggressive pk types I presume we're talking about here (which yes, Antioch has most of now) to want to play a purely defensive role. Every time we take the antagonist role in the events, we pick up more pkers. I'm sure some people will disagree, but its been a trend in the last three events unfailingly.
I agree though that champion stuff probably won't take off in the short term. Long term I'm optimistic, personally.
It's completely understandable. It's just important to remember that a) it's a small game and b) nobody plays if they aren't having fun. If you stack the odds in your favor and then grief the other side into oblivion (which yes, logging on during off peak to drain siege for 3 hours a night is pretty much that), people stop playing. And if people aren't playing, those aggressive PK types aren't going to have much choice but to fight amongst themselves for scraps.
It's also worth noting that Antioch is more likely than any other faction to ignore established roleplay in favor of fighting everyone. That's a choice that can be made, but most other orgs are going to be loath to do that.
Not involved in the siege thing, so I'll let people who are comment on it.
But my point was more people gravitate to the org where they think they'll get to fight. That's Am currently because we pick fights with everyone. It'll very probably be someone else in a month or so (slower than ideal, I'm aware).
We'll just see how things go, but we've been through this cycle enough to know how it tends to go.
Being aggressive is fine and expected, but you seriously can't expect 'defenders' to get battered on every front and still want to log in. The bandwagon effect kills PvP just as much as it kills all other types of conflict.
It's not really worth getting worked up about, so you're right, we'll have to just disagree on why so many people jumped sides at the same time.
My point is that you need two sides to fight, and tilting it too far in one direction has always historically resulted in a lag phase where people sit around and wait for the sides to even themselves out. Maybe that's the case this time and maybe it's not, there's a chance we can get midbies to step up, but the precedent has already long since been established.
Either way, we'll have to see what the next stage holds. We have some RP muscles to flex if nothing else!
The Champion thing is exciting, and I think/hope is going to lead to each circle having one or two boneyards at a given time (probably owned by someone like Septus or Eldreth) and team defense/aggression, centered maybe more around the plagues than the boneyards, eventually. I like that idea, a lot. People are certainly going to end up stockpiling bones, and will probably wait until they have 100 bones or more to build, unless they are just making one to test mechanics of a new system, so I am hoping that upkeep of at least one "circle" boneyard, probably held by one of that circle's most capable fighters, will be doable. It does require that you have a team behind you though, I bet, to really shine, so people hopefully buy into that. That is the only thing I could see being a problem, is, a circle not working together to maintain a couple of boneyards (or at least one), and a bunch of individuals trying to do so instead. That probably WILL happen to at least some extent in the beginning, and we will probably tear those apart, I am guessing.
EDIT: I also bet admin will clamp down hard on farming, if needed. And, I admit, we did do a small amount of "farming" so we could have a tiny boneyard to see how things work.
I would note that I have way more fun killing these plagues than I would creating them. It'd be neat if you had to be a Champion to kill the Plague, even though I feel that it might discourage people because of the open PVP aspect in a PvE environment, but it would give those of us on the 'opposite' side a reason to join in, I guess.
Then again, maybe members of the magick and demonic circle might want to raise a boneyard of their own, but after the stances taken in the event I don't think it's too lightly.
Shout out to @Olorina, and @Assunta for assisting on the Plagues. Olorina stole all of my kills.
- baseline % chance of becoming a champion while bashing, or
- baseline % chance of becoming champion while killing mob bosses; people who don't want champion could turn over their champion status to other champions (assumedly in their own circle)
- not quite sure how admin considers mitigating self-farming
event feedback:
- turn-in quest for bones was stifled for Tomas in part because AM players camped out the turn-in room
- consider:
- allowing a percentage of turn-ins to bypass this step, to mitigate a hard camp on the turn-in room
- alternatively, offer an alternative syntax out-of-room at a poorer conversion rate; simultaneously flagging the person for PK for a window of time
I don't think some of these people want to be flagged for PK though (especially that), not even "for a little while", which, I still have very mixed feelings about having player groups with such polarized wants, but, we need those players. The only reason our "camping" worked anyway, under the event's rules/mechanics, was mostly because those people really really really didn't want to get PK-ed... Let the bashers bash, I guess, is what I am thinking. Just let them bash... sometimes.
And we really are about to get a bloodfest for the more PK oriented, or at least the Champions are, and I do think other people interested in PK will also get to play, even if they aren't Champions per se. I definitely don't plan on holding Champion, though, for example - because the only two outcomes are "pretty sure this can't possibly be legal" epic scale killfarming, or providing lots of bones for demonic. That's the other side of that farming question, by the way - no conscientious/not complete idiot org member who understands they're not top tier is going to hold Champion, exactly because they know they'll be nothing but a source of bones for the other side.
For what it's worth, I think it'd be much better for all player corpses to have bones. There's the incentive-not-to-hold-champion issue, and how champion bodies are innately hard to come by (only people who can fend for themselves anyway take it). That also fixes the problem where an (apprentice) champion can't get bones because they steal champion on starburst and create no champion corpses, and relatedly how, if you want to generate maximal bones, no-one on your side should have champion, to avoid taking it from the other team.
This is all assuming that bone farming doesn't become the optimal (or only) route, preferably because the administrators will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who does it. (Relatedly: are you guys watching for that, or will we need to issue if it's going on?)
I like it, but we've already seen a lot of gank squads lately, jumping all sorts of people because reasons, including our newer recruits who barely have aliases for their new profs... A lot of instances similar to when someone from magick joined us to capture a mono recently, specifically because they'd just been jumped by a very large demonic group when they were solo (while bashing). And this would probably incentivize more of that. It's the first suggestion I see that solves some of the basic problems, though, and I guess we could just always do stuff with a "battle buddy" for a bit.
EDIT: of course, that might mostly cover us, but not necessarily random magickers. In theory, PK rules protect them, I hope/think, but they'd have to be far more willing to issue than most of us are, while not being so eager to issue they lose all credibility with admin.
I am considering some of the things mentioned here.
How do we feel about champion status only lost/gained on a real death. Which means it would no longer be lost/gained on starburst. This means a corpse would be dropped from a champion.
I like the idea that everyone creates bones. I wouldn't be too concerned about the ganking issue being an ongoing problem. There tends to be an equilibrium with these things.
I like the cross circle requirement.
If we went this route, I'd be a bit concerned with both the KB requirement and the actual bone evocation process, given how we know most of these bones will realistically be collected (in mass scrums). The RNG factor of some non-Champion KBs and body grabs will be a mess.
How about something that incorporates the spirit/essence drop mechanic a bit, in that the bone automatically is assigned to the one who delivers the KB. Have four colors, each with increasing value based on the hierarchy: non-champ KB non-champ, Champ KB non-champ, non-champ KB Champ (guess you could interchange these two), Champ KB Champ. Bones can be shared, can't be inrifted and drop on death. Boneyard maintenance, including the plague stuff, is a full Champion responsibility. This allows full participation. Somehow tying additional, non-PK benefits to a boneyard might seal the deal. Magic isn't going to go out of their way to grab bones to unleash a plague like the other sides will. But they turn into crazy people at caravan time by example.
“We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
I am considering some of the things mentioned here.
How do we feel about champion status only lost/gained on a real death. Which means it would no longer be lost/gained on starburst. This means a corpse would be dropped from a champion.
Thoughts?
My base attack time usually hovers around 1.3-2.3 seconds. I added a queue take body command the other night (didn't realize I had lost mine), and upon log review Septus lost at least 5 corpses he normally grabs just based on base prof attack speed. Understanding most of these bones will be harvested not in sterile white knight environments but in clusters, this needs to be considered.
“We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
The plagues, as they are now, are doomed to fail, honestly. There's just not enough Champions to run it without resorting to blatant farming. Extra bashing experience isn't enough to convince people to go free PK, because, well, they're jumping into the deep end of a pool filled with sharks. If you want it to work, you're going to have to change Champion status, because right now there's just not enough Champions. Without some kind of teamfarming, how do you expect an AM champion to gather bones from 10 different Champions?
Some ideas I had:
Champion status no longer depends on bashing or has an apprentice system; when you sacrifice/enter root you become a full Champion immediately. Champion still grants an EXP bonus, though.
Champion is no longer removed when you're killed by a Champion. Instead, your Champion kill streaks are reset and your Champion status is suppressed for 60 minutes, or until you make a champion kill. While suppressed, you're not free PK and you can't use Boneyards or whatnot, and you still get the experience bonus.
Champions are only free PK for other Champions. If you want to take the kills, you need to have some skin in the game, IMO.
The idea here is that making Champion status a permanent thing should result in more Champions, because people won't just forget about picking it up after deaths and the like. Suppressing Champion status after a death while keeping the experience bonus means that you might get more non-combatant Champions, because after a death they'll get an hour of peace to bash while still getting the bashing benefits. One death an hour for a major bashing bonus is a big benefit that would still be worth taking for a lot of people. A bashing bonus for 30 seconds before Septus launches an orbital strike at you is "why bother?".
And that last part is really the big problem with the Champion system as it is now. Bashers, lowbies, and general non-combatants have no reason to even consider the Champion system because it draws a ton of fire and then you lose all the benefits immediately. If you want to make the Champion system workable, that's the problem you're going to have to rectify.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I don't know about the no-champion-stealing-on-burst thing.
I basically only bother with getting champion (or, rather, getting apprentice) to steal it from the other team, so that the *next* kill on them generates precious, precious PK XP. As it is, most of the time, even when we *do* manage to kill Septus somehow, unless me or Eldreth or Ahkan land the killing blow, the only reward is the kill credit—which might not even count if the fighting's been going on for a while—and maybe removing him from the fight for a little bit. Assuming it wasn't a starburst. And he's generally the last target anyway, so unless it's an obelisk battle, he can take all the time he wants to get alive again and re-organise his team. Given all these things, I think there's already a problem with the champion system leading to un-rewarding fights in groups—and we don't need to make that worse by having champion harder to lose.
Is PK XP actually precious? Beyond bragging rights for the top 20 or so? If so, that is kind of a problem in and of itself. If PK XP is actually worth worrying about (or seen to be), that's not a good thing in the first place.
Champion is no longer removed when you're killed by a Champion. Instead, your Champion kill streaks are reset and your Champion status is suppressed for 60 minutes, or until you make a champion kill. While suppressed, you're not free PK and you can't use Boneyards or whatnot, and you still get the experience bonus.
after a death they'll get an hour of peace to bash while still getting the bashing benefits. One death an hour for a major bashing bonus is a big benefit that would still be worth taking for a lot of people.
I think making Champion a permanent choice is going to see very few adopters - the idea proposed equates theoretically to the person being open-PK'd once an hour and cannot be undone. While the effective death rate may be lower than that, I fear that the perceived 'risk' will mean people will simply shun the system altogether.
I don't think it should be permanent, I meant to include that you could QUIT CHAMPION or RENOUNCE CHAMPION or whatever, I just forgot to include it in the post.
Basically, I just think that having to reacquire it after every death is dumb and leads to people just failing to re-up their champion status.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Comments
We actually had a tiny population going into the event. We just picked up a ton of people as we started winning/people came out of dormancy to see what the fuss was about.
You have to be reallistic about these things.
You sir, have no right to invoke that hero. Go find a Gorst quote
If a system is based around having participation on both sides, it might take awhile to see it lift off of the ground, with the current state of things.
I'll stop making quotes with Eldreth and try to be constructive, I suppose. We shall continue this later, @Eldreth!
Frankly, @Wysrias, we have the aggressive pkers because we take an aggressive stance on everything. I have never known one of the seriously aggressive pk types I presume we're talking about here (which yes, Antioch has most of now) to want to play a purely defensive role. Every time we take the antagonist role in the events, we pick up more pkers. I'm sure some people will disagree, but its been a trend in the last three events unfailingly.
I agree though that champion stuff probably won't take off in the short term. Long term I'm optimistic, personally.
It's also worth noting that Antioch is more likely than any other faction to ignore established roleplay in favor of fighting everyone. That's a choice that can be made, but most other orgs are going to be loath to do that.
Not involved in the siege thing, so I'll let people who are comment on it.
But my point was more people gravitate to the org where they think they'll get to fight. That's Am currently because we pick fights with everyone. It'll very probably be someone else in a month or so (slower than ideal, I'm aware).
Being aggressive is fine and expected, but you seriously can't expect 'defenders' to get battered on every front and still want to log in. The bandwagon effect kills PvP just as much as it kills all other types of conflict.
My point is that you need two sides to fight, and tilting it too far in one direction has always historically resulted in a lag phase where people sit around and wait for the sides to even themselves out. Maybe that's the case this time and maybe it's not, there's a chance we can get midbies to step up, but the precedent has already long since been established.
Either way, we'll have to see what the next stage holds. We have some RP muscles to flex if nothing else!
This is all assuming that bone farming doesn't become the optimal (or only) route, preferably because the administrators will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who does it. (Relatedly: are you guys watching for that, or will we need to issue if it's going on?)
I'd just change it to only generate bones on corpses of those killed by a champion, and only if that champion is in a different circle.
Two birds with one stone for the most part.
I like the cross circle requirement.
If we went this route, I'd be a bit concerned with both the KB requirement and the actual bone evocation process, given how we know most of these bones will realistically be collected (in mass scrums). The RNG factor of some non-Champion KBs and body grabs will be a mess.
How about something that incorporates the spirit/essence drop mechanic a bit, in that the bone automatically is assigned to the one who delivers the KB. Have four colors, each with increasing value based on the hierarchy: non-champ KB non-champ, Champ KB non-champ, non-champ KB Champ (guess you could interchange these two), Champ KB Champ. Bones can be shared, can't be inrifted and drop on death. Boneyard maintenance, including the plague stuff, is a full Champion responsibility. This allows full participation. Somehow tying additional, non-PK benefits to a boneyard might seal the deal. Magic isn't going to go out of their way to grab bones to unleash a plague like the other sides will. But they turn into crazy people at caravan time by example.
Some ideas I had:
The idea here is that making Champion status a permanent thing should result in more Champions, because people won't just forget about picking it up after deaths and the like. Suppressing Champion status after a death while keeping the experience bonus means that you might get more non-combatant Champions, because after a death they'll get an hour of peace to bash while still getting the bashing benefits. One death an hour for a major bashing bonus is a big benefit that would still be worth taking for a lot of people. A bashing bonus for 30 seconds before Septus launches an orbital strike at you is "why bother?".
And that last part is really the big problem with the Champion system as it is now. Bashers, lowbies, and general non-combatants have no reason to even consider the Champion system because it draws a ton of fire and then you lose all the benefits immediately. If you want to make the Champion system workable, that's the problem you're going to have to rectify.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I basically only bother with getting champion (or, rather, getting apprentice) to steal it from the other team, so that the *next* kill on them generates precious, precious PK XP. As it is, most of the time, even when we *do* manage to kill Septus somehow, unless me or Eldreth or Ahkan land the killing blow, the only reward is the kill credit—which might not even count if the fighting's been going on for a while—and maybe removing him from the fight for a little bit. Assuming it wasn't a starburst. And he's generally the last target anyway, so unless it's an obelisk battle, he can take all the time he wants to get alive again and re-organise his team. Given all these things, I think there's already a problem with the champion system leading to un-rewarding fights in groups—and we don't need to make that worse by having champion harder to lose.
I don't think it should be permanent, I meant to include that you could QUIT CHAMPION or RENOUNCE CHAMPION or whatever, I just forgot to include it in the post.
Basically, I just think that having to reacquire it after every death is dumb and leads to people just failing to re-up their champion status.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."