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  • AilishAilish Member Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    Right - as soon as my Unlimited No Brainer Packages idea is implemented.
    Iniar
  • ZaveesiZaveesi Member Posts: 20
    edited August 2015
    I am a little amused at the idea that Antioch is the better structured of the two AM organizations. It's more populated, but it's been a pretty consistent clusterahem for awhile. Most major orgs have peaks and lulls. In a decade of playing and almost as many major characters, I've enjoyed time in every city and council. Picking based on who currently sucks is not really a smart way to go about things. Also, guilds and cities/councils have value in the RP they provide to characters. Having different starting 'hooks' can help people figure out how to develop. Even if Imperian is a combat-centric game, it's still an RP game. We haven't become Aardwolf yet. So keeping those built-in hooks is a good thing in my eyes. 

    There was a suggestion brought up awhile ago that could resolve the issue of feeling isolated without eliminating the RP variation that different orgs bring - make an in-character circle channel/org. What we are missing is a feeling of connection to the people in our own sandbox. Destroying things always chases people out of the game. That's the last thing we need. Creating an overarching org that brings together the people who are all on the same side eliminates the necessity for folks to be an in OOC ring to see/feel activity and allows in-game organization of events, combat, socialization, whatever. It costs nothing. You aren't going to see players fleeing en masse because your killed their baby and five years of character development. 

    Smaller events are way more fun than large scale events. I avoid large scale events because then it becomes a competition of who gets to do thing A first and get in the news post. Everyone grandstands and it's noisy and irritating to me. Making the NPCs come alive is a good way to generate more excitement in the game with low cost/effort. Yes, you will get people who don't respond pretty often. But you also will get people who do respond, and you will make their day. 

    I haven't been playing for awhile; else I'd be down to toss ideas towards any celani/god looking to host events. There's too much going on that I missed completely for me to feel comfortable doing that right now. :P 

    As for recruitment - I think it's hard for non-MUD players to understand how playing a text game could be enjoyable compared to the massive assortment of other entertainment options we have open to us. Have you tried pushing for reviews/blog posts/etc. with gamer websites? That seems more likely to draw interest than an ad for a text game. Knowing why MUDs are so engaging that many of us have been playing them for years or even decades. 


    Uh, I think I hit all the points made. 


    Edit: I did miss one! 

    If we do go the route of killing things, kill all the things and let folks rebuild like Khizan was saying. Do it slowly. Do it with LOTS of player input. Do it in a way that actually allows players to drive the story a bit, instead of feeling like absolutely nothing we do actually makes one bit of difference. Reform with fewer orgs but lots of flavor in each org to allow the same options for RP-hooks and play style. 



    AilishDreacorSkye
  • EsmyrsiaEsmyrsia Member, Immortal Posts: 57 mod
    Small events are a lot funner for me too, trust me. However, without input, it's really difficult to plan something. I'm not trying to be nitpicky here, but I do tend to go out of my way to try to give players bits and pieces of roleplay. That involves me trying to find someone who is mildly active, mildly not doing something private I might intrude on, mildly not afkbotting, and who also has something they want to roleplay. 

    When I ask for people give me input, message/email me, it's because I genuinely -want- to do some roleplay with you, but it isn't necessarily easy to do sometimes. So if like.... a couple people drop me a message, I'll gladly look out for you and look forward to initiating something interesting for you and a storyline we can progress with.

    I'm here, screaming 'hey, let me know you want something to happen, and I'll make sure it happens'
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    Zaveesi said:
    I am a little amused at the idea that Antioch is the better structured of the two AM organizations. It's more populated, but it's been a pretty consistent clusterahem for awhile. Most major orgs have peaks and lulls. In a decade of playing and almost as many major characters, I've enjoyed time in every city and council. Picking based on who currently sucks is not really a smart way to go about things. Also, guilds and cities/councils have value in the RP they provide to characters. Having different starting 'hooks' can help people figure out how to develop. Even if Imperian is a combat-centric game, it's still an RP game. We haven't become Aardwolf yet. So keeping those built-in hooks is a good thing in my eyes.
    You mention that we "haven't become Aardwolf yet" (implying that this is somehow a real danger for us... although, Aardwolf IS full of people).  I tried Aardwolf once.  For 20 minutes?  Nice enough people, but zzzzzz.  Never been back.  I also don't understand why you're saying "I am a little amused at the idea that Antioch is the better structured of the two AM organizations. It's more populated, but it's been a pretty consistent clusterahem for awhile".  When you've been dormant, this is very possibly a wildly inaccurate thing to say.  It is very possible it WAS true at one point (okay this is a MUD, 100% that train wrecked multiple times and everyone died horribly EACH TIME :( ).  But right now?  Or in the past year or so?  Ithaqua seems to have some issues (but your statement seems to imply that you actually consider Ithaqua to be the less "messed up" of the two orgs).  You're based in Antioch and you mention Antioch specifically as the "clusterahem", so I am curious what you mean by that.    
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    Zaveesi said:
    Destroying things always chases people out of the game. That's the last thing we need. Creating an overarching org that brings together the people who are all on the same side eliminates the necessity for folks to be an in OOC ring to see/feel activity and allows in-game organization of events, combat, socialization, whatever. It costs nothing. You aren't going to see players fleeing en masse because your killed their baby and five years of character development. 

    No, no, no. Destroying things -has- to happen. It is helpful. Clearing the old growth is what makes new growth possible. There's a reason so many myths have creation born of destruction and it isn't "We're better off if everything stays same forever because change is bad".

    And, well, lemme put it this way...

    If you are given the chance to completely remake your faction and the face of the game by surviving a world-changing disaster, finding a new homeland, establishing a new city, and watching it grow out of a refugee camp into the heart of a new city-state... if you are given the chance to do something epic and you decide against it because you'd rather have single-citizen cities and a circle-wide IC channel... well, I feel terribly sorry for you and I think that it's a crying shame that you lost your imagination in that car accident, but you still shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for a game that is about having fun and being awesome and doing awesome things. If we lose a couple people, so what? We'll gain more just by doing something so awesome because people will flock to be in on the ground floor of a new organization. 

    @Jules : Please do not mess up a perfectly good thread by going into a pointless discussion about which city is better or how we are or are not turning into Aardwolf. If you do I will be very upset and you will be grounded young lady.

    @EverybodyElse : I can't ground you if you mess up this perfectly good thread but I will make angry faces and be sad if you do it. :(

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    Iniar
  • ZaveesiZaveesi Member Posts: 20
    @Jules - The only reason I mentioned Aardwolf is because it's a combat focused MUD. I picked a name out of a hat. As for Antioch, I'm speaking of an overarching theme and specifically said we shouldn't be looking at the current health of an org because that changes, routinely. I may not have been around for the last half year, but patterns that hold for a decade are pretty stable patterns. Again, you are sidestepping the point of what I was saying.  

    @Khizan - I would agree if not for the fact that the playerbase has shown itself to repeatedly be incapable of handling change without freaking out and leaving in droves, which doesn't really help the situation being discussed in this thread. If there was a history of people taking those moments and turning them into the exciting opportunities they are, I'd be all about crushing everything and starting fresh. It just never, ever seems to work as intended and the game shrinks every time it happens. We don't end up with better, we just end up with less. 


  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    I think the worry about people freaking out and leaving en masse is overblown, for a few reasons:

    - Imperian is supposed to be a dynamic world, and refusing to ever delete anything obsolete gives the opposite impression
    - The RP driving most orgs has completely played out or is no longer relevant because of massive storyline shifts
    - A solution for shops and houses can easily be worked out - and let's be real, most city shops can stand to go since Caanae has become the major shopping hub
    - Political entrenchment has created completely stagnant orgs like Kinsarmar that attempt to play a single-player version of the game while contributing nothing to the world stage
    - For people to leave in droves, there have to be droves of people playing to begin with

    For what it's worth, another IRE game DID delete a major organization, and while there was some uproar when it first happened, the threat of losing other orgs convinced several veterans to return, and the sudden flux of refugees bolstered the other orgs. What was a contentious decision at the time has since been accepted as a pretty good idea in the long run.

    I'm not advocating the same thing here, but I DO think that shaking things up is absolutely essential to keeping people interested, even if it does run the risk of upsetting the status quo.


    MenochKhizanDicene
  • ZaveesiZaveesi Member Posts: 20
    edited August 2015
    Everytime Imperian has done something similar, the game has shrunk. That's what I'm basing my assumption of folks leaving on. If our average max pop is 40, that's very little wiggle room for player loss. 

    I think alternative solutions would be more attractive, particularly since Jeremy is apparently adamantly against killing orgs. Like I said already, if I thought the player base would not respond with a knee-jerk emotional reaction and treat it as an opportunity to do something new and interesting, I would be completely on board. I don't see that happening, and since the entire thing seems highly unlikely, I'd personally rather focus on ideas that might help resolve the issues of a low population. A circle-wide organization for in-game event planning and chatter, for example. Recruitment plans to boost the population. Small events, player-run or admin-assisted. 

    Edit - There's also more than one way to shake things up. You don't have to delete an org to do so. 
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    For the record I am pro blowing thing up. I mean, I am certainly for retooling and consolidating our orgs in a way that includes all of us in AM starting fresh with no rank, position, etc... Like Ultrix, though, I don't want to consolidate too much and leave people without options, even though having an extra org can feel horribly inefficient (and in some cases IS inefficient). If we look at how Achaea got rid of their old Houses and got new ones, that went really well in some cases (as a model, I mean, whether we totally get rid of guilds or not). Also I am incredibly confused by the nuances of these conversations and I hope I am not grounded :(
  • ZaveesiZaveesi Member Posts: 20
    If we did it, I'd want to see -everything- kaboom and everyone start fresh. I think Imperian has plenty of story hooks to pull that off. 

    We'd need to hash out the 'how we rebuild' prior to that happening with a lot of back and forth to answer questions/alleviate concerns beforehand. 

    I'm not against the idea, I just don't think it'll resolve my concern about the miniature population. :P 

    Settling on that as the only solution seems more than pointless, however. Jeremy seems highly opposed. If you can't have the solution you like, you don't stuff your hands in your pockets and give up on finding alternative methods of fixin' stuff. 
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    Celidon? Ithaqua? Stavenn? I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.

    image

    IniarArioClaudius
  • RascaRasca Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    image
    無駄だ!無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄!ザ・ワールド!時よ止まれ!くらえ!そして、時は動き出す。
    image
    IniarWysriasMenochArio
  • ArioArio Member Posts: 171 ✭✭✭
    As a member of Stavenn: I totally support this idea. If I can't get rid of the circle-program which I've disliked for ages, I'm totally fine with some great earthquake happening and crumbling all of Stavenn's not-so-fine infrastructure.

    As much as I'm enjoying pushing through ideas of this 'new Republic', I would much prefer to have the option to either a) create a new organization, or b) join Khandava and get involved with that sweet, sweet moon rabbit business.

    Ithaqua and Antioch getting nuked and them having to move into the Heartlands or Ik'taru? I'm fine with that too. Mass exodus of people would be amazingly cool to see happen from afar.

  • RascaRasca Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    Big world-changing event that IRE can point to in a newsletter and say, "Hey look, stuff is happening in Imperian!" that maybe draws in some new players and fixes the population problems of a decade plus of accreted orgs? Win win.
    無駄だ!無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄!ザ・ワールド!時よ止まれ!くらえ!そして、時は動き出す。
    image
  • ZaveesiZaveesi Member Posts: 20
    I want to like the above a hundred times. 
  • RagnarRagnar Member Posts: 173 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    I've shared my opinion with a lot of people who no longer play Imperian and all of them agree with me.

    My opinion is that Imperian's population has dropped because the game shifted focus away from the individual and put it on the group.

    Before you used to be tempted to come in and be this big badass, whether it be an evil dude in Stavenn or a righteous chick in Antioch or a wise and powerful Magicker. Now, with combat devolved into nothing but large groups of people mashing damage combos and all the other group mechanics that have been implemented, the spotlight is no longer on the person.

    I feel like the administration has catered to a select group of people that have been here for a very long time, who had their time in the spotlight and grew bored with it and so wanted something different.

    No doubt they'll reply to my post and state something about white knighting or how 1v1 is nothing more than waiting for the other person to make a mistake and thus boring. Well I don't care what you think. This is my opinion, and a lot of people share it.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    If we're sort of talking about attracting players from other IRE who would very possibly benefit from a game switch (and it really does seem like a huge number of our newbies come from Achaea, including me) - there are players that are positively miserable in those other games (or simply bored), who would love this one.  This game is unique in IRE and offers very specific, very appealing things (to the right player).  That player just needs to A) know Imperian is here and what it offers and B) be able to switch (which not everyone can/will if they've got a char that's super decked out).  

    Better yet, it's too bad some of these people don't discover Imperian first.  It's like, "we don't get the people, because we don't have the people".  If we just had that critical mass, I think we'd be fine, and this game would take off, and then we could have the wonderful problem of needing to add resources for that population (because no, I don't consider squabbling over the "good" bashing areas fun).  

    This game does have a pretty serious AFK problem, though.  And not like, "I ran downstairs to grab my coffee".  I am not sure why people don't just log off or journal, but they often don't, and I'm not sure how to encourage them to do that without the sort of petty rules that I feel are worse than dealing with the AFK.  And yes, as Aquil said, officiously telling newbies "Please read blah scroll" over GNT right off the bat is so crappy.  But people love doing that.  Makes them feel important or something.  And to be fair, in some of the games, the people get a bazillion newbies.  Still one of my pet peeves.  We're small enough we don't have to do that here.  So we mostly don't!  It's good.  I feel like that sort of thing is a good marker for the sort of attitude people have here, too, and that attitude is a huge part of why I stick around.  It would be great if we could grow just the right amount.  We don't need to be huge, and we probably can't be.  If we could cover all the bases but still be a nice, small community, that would be perfect.  
  • RaliRali Member Posts: 7
    There seems to be sort of a catch-22 happening here.  When you listen to the introductions that happen on the newbie channel you can see that there are some people finding their way into the game. To me the problem  then becomes how do you retain these new people. As I stated previously and I think another fairly new person stated as well, engagement is vital for a new player.

     When a new player comes into the game they come to play with other liked minded people, we know nothing about how unbalanced skills, or that the current theme of the game (meaning Circles) may have been taken as far as they can go, or that some are annoyed that all the gods they once followed are now dead.  All we see is "shinny new stuff to learn and play with", unfortunately, that quickly fades when you find yourself playing by yourself most of the time.  

    I say this to simple say that retention is not only the responsibility of those hosting the game, meaning the admins, but also the responsibility of those playing the game.  Even in a perfect game where everything went right, it would still be a boring game if people didn't have others to play with, and the only way to keep having people to play with is to actually play with them. 

    Maybe retention would pick up if we all made a conscious effort to be present and engaging in the game. Of course, I am not trying to say that there are not those that do try to engage newer players because those people do exists.  However,  it does seem like those willing to do so, are not the majority of the player base.
    EsmyrsiaZaveesi
  • EsmyrsiaEsmyrsia Member, Immortal Posts: 57 mod
    As a former player, and when I try other muds, I can promise you the single most important thing in keeping my attention is having one on one interaction with another player, in person, that wants to show me the ropes. Reading help files makes me want to QQ.


    Zaveesi
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    Ragnar said:
    I've shared my opinion with a lot of people who no longer play Imperian and all of them agree with me.

    My opinion is that Imperian's population has dropped because the game shifted focus away from the individual and put it on the group.

    Before you used to be tempted to come in and be this big badass, whether it be an evil dude in Stavenn or a righteous chick in Antioch or a wise and powerful Magicker. Now, with combat devolved into nothing but large groups of people mashing damage combos and all the other group mechanics that have been implemented, the spotlight is no longer on the person.

    I feel like the administration has catered to a select group of people that have been here for a very long time, who had their time in the spotlight and grew bored with it and so wanted something different.

    No doubt they'll reply to my post and state something about white knighting or how 1v1 is nothing more than waiting for the other person to make a mistake and thus boring. Well I don't care what you think. This is my opinion, and a lot of people share it.
    There is lots of 1v1. Well, not as much as there used to be but I still think a character can be renowned for prowess in single combat. As someone who's always enjoyed it I find there's plenty of oppourtunity for anyone who wants to make the effort.

  • KristosKristos Member Posts: 44 ✭✭
    I agree and disagree with that Kryss. The only time I can assume its 1v1 is either against Mathiaus or in the arena. Anyone from magick or demonic is calling for help or already bringing multiple people.
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    Does the arena not count as proper 1v1? Nothing wrong with being known for being skilled there. And you know, maybe the whole thing about someone being all known is the very reason why no one wants to fight. After all, once you have a reputation for being good at something, people are far less likely to challenge you on it.

  • KristosKristos Member Posts: 44 ✭✭
    Could very well be true and yes the arena counts but honestly it is the same 4-6 people in the arena which can get boring.
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    While I don't 1 v.1, I'd just like to say I very much dislike the arena.  Or, more accurately, I think the arena is a great tool, but I absolutely don't enjoy using it.  If someone wants to test something (and the generator just won't do) or there's a team thing, sure, but while I would never, ever say it's not "proper", it does almost always feel awkward and artificial to me, and I have a feeling I'm not entirely alone there - which possibly has a bit to do with why it's "the same 4-6 people".  It's actually one of the many things I like about playing here - I don't really have to bother with the arena.  If I really really want wytch Kryss to come wreck me so I can see if my new tweak marginally improved my survivability, I will just go try to capture a monolith or something.  Not sure what could be done about it, but if I were big on 1 v.1, having arena be my main dish would make me sad.  I bet it might make those guys super happy if mono capturing limited team size or something, but I wouldn't dare actually suggest that (and I am not suggesting it).  I bet some kind of mechanism that allows those guys to make 1 v. 1 fights happen a bit more organically might be something they'd really like, though.
    Post edited by Jules on
  • ZaveesiZaveesi Member Posts: 20
    I wish the focus didn't seem to be wholly on combat for freaking everything. 

    I just wanted to add my voice to the 'go talk to newbs directly' thing. I know I have gotten kind of jaded about this over the years, but it's really vital for retention. Even someone who's an old hand at text-gaming or Imperian specifically gets an opportunity to make a connection in a new faction -and- you  might know something they didn't know. 
    LaaryetSkye
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2015
    I've no problem with the arena. It's somewhere you can fight it out without having to think about anything else and as an added bonus, no resources are consumed. As such, it's not only great for learning but also for competetive duels and such that you're unlikely to get outside of it.

  • TatumTatum Member Posts: 17 ✭✭
    There's nothing like a good zombie apocalypse to kill off civilization. Rebuild from there! Talking about attracting the masses...:P
  • RascaRasca Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    ImperianZ. Bring on the permadeath!
    無駄だ!無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄無駄!ザ・ワールド!時よ止まれ!くらえ!そして、時は動き出す。
    image
  • MereisMereis Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    The woodlings better goddamn survive the Khandava nuking.
    currently tentatively active
    (may vanish for periods of time)
    Caelya
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