Shrines, Religion and other Mumbo Jumbo

Iniar · June 2015

I couldn't find a shrine-related thread so... Here's what I know so far:

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 2 L: 2

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 2 L: 2

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 3 L: 3

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Conquest idol Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Conquest shrine Faith: 85 Relic C: 3 L: 3

Altar (Conquest) Faith: - Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 2 L: 2

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Conquest idol Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 2

a Conquest shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Conquest shrine Faith: 95 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Leechwood shrine Faith: 84 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Leechwood shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Leechwood idol Faith: 55 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Leechwood shrine Faith: 85 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Leechwood shrine Faith: 55 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Leechwood shrine Faith: 75 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Leechwood shrine Faith: 50 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Primal shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 3 L: 3

a Primal shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Primal shrine Faith: 70 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Primal shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Primal shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 2 L: 2

a Primal shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 3 L: 3

a Primal shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Arcanus idol Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 2

a Arcanus shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Arcanus shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Arcanus shrine Faith: - Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Rashirmir shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Rashirmir shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Rashirmir shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 2 L: 2

a Rashirmir shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Unspeakable shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

Altar (Unspeakable) Faith: - Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Demonology shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

Altar (Storms) Faith: - Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Storms shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 3 L: 3

a Storms shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

a Enigma shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 1 L: 1

a Enigma shrine Faith: 100 Relic C: 0 L: 0

I guess my personal main take away is that, I get that Conquest wants to win, cool, I am not going to (nor can I) schedule my life around 5 hour fights.

My concern is that now when infrequent players (which I will become, unfortunately) log in and want to take part in a little skirmish, say for example, a monolith battle... there is an uphill battle against entrenched shrines. I don't want to turn people away when they want to fight, but if going into a monolith fight means going against a shrine with powers like Torture, Summer, Lethargic... I don't think that's an enjoyable scenario.

Shou · June 2015

Not that it matters, but Torture does like 30 damage and lethargic affects everyone, not just non-sect members. Just saying.

What does the L: mean? And... is the number of shrines really relevant to 'winning'? I understand you mean with the defiling and whatnot, but why was it necessary to post all the shrines you've seen to make that point?

Iniar · June 2015

L: is for cumulative level

Mereis · June 2015

Number of shrines could be indirectly relevant, since according to @Baelor, shrine density makes shrines harder to defile, which means if Monolith Z is in Area A and shrines for sect are in areas A, B, and C, freeing A from the shrine's effects may mean dealing with B and C, too.

or something i dunno

Khizan · June 2015

I just want to point out that the PvP-useful abilities of the shrines have absolutely nothing to do with the amount of shrines we have. We have a boatload of shrines in Demon's Pass because Shou and Ultrix and Karyn want the PvE bonuses; it is just coincidental that there's a monolith in that area.

One of the more effective ways to limit shrines on monoliths might just be moving monoliths out of bashing areas so that sects can't double-dip that way.

Iniar · June 2015

Conquest has shrines in monolith only areas (non-bashing areas). I know this!

Aakrin · June 2015

I don't think shrine density should have any relevance at all on sanctifying/defiling. You could set it up so that you have to work from the outside in to defile shrines in an area, but that's about the only thing I can see as okay. The current system just offers a ton of #Unfun.

The current system is also going to hugely punish any new people who build a new sect and try to get any shrines out at all. We need to work on expanding diversity, not squashing it.

Shou · June 2015

Iniar said:

Conquest has shrines in monolith only areas (non-bashing areas). I know this!

The only non-bashing areas we have shrines in are ik'taru (the first shrine septus built), areish (the second shrine we built, area which also houses our altar), shaahri because why not, and aoash, which is truthfully the only area we've built in to make our way towards a monolith.

Iniar · June 2015

@Dec

When I destroyed an unmanned Demonology shrine, I netted 400k faith:

2015/06/25 03:32:02 - Iniar spent 40000 belief on a shrine at A barren wasteland (defile)

2015/06/25 03:38:02 - 404800 belief gained from Iniar's XP gains.

When I destroyed a Storms shrine, I netted 0 faith:

2015/06/28 17:29:15 - Iniar spent 40000 belief on a shrine at A broad clearing (defile)

Help.

Is it a once-off reward with the achievement or am I doing something wrong?

Khizan · June 2015

The achievement gives you a giant wad of quest experience, and that experience gives you faith. When I got that achievement I had virtue conversion set to 100% and I got something like 170 virtuedrops out of it.

Iniar · June 2015

Thanks @Khizan.

Iniar · July 2015

I have been unable to defile any of these shrines, and there are no nearby shrines? Please clarify @Dec.

Hunt - (s+) # 1102 (the Graytrem hills) f: 100 % r: 1 / 1 up(1306)

Hunt - (s+) # 1118 (the Graytrem hills) f: 100 % r: 2 / 2 up(4320)

Hunt - (s+) # 1115 (the Graytrem hills) f: 100 % r: 0 / 0 up(1310)

Hunt [altar] # 1119 (the Graytrem hills) f: - % r: 0 / 0

Hunt - (s+) # 1103 (the Graytrem hills) f: 100 % r: 0 / 0 up(1307)

Garryn · July 2015

Shrines up to 3 rooms away count towards the immunity limit, with decreasing strength.

Ultrix · July 2015

Iniar said:

I have been unable to defile any of these shrines, and there are no nearby shrines? Please clarify @Dec.

Hunt - (s+) # 1102 (the Graytrem hills) f: 100 % r: 1 / 1 up(1306)
Hunt - (s+) # 1118 (the Graytrem hills) f: 100 % r: 2 / 2 up(4320)
Hunt - (s+) # 1115 (the Graytrem hills) f: 100 % r: 0 / 0 up(1310)
Hunt [altar] # 1119 (the Graytrem hills) f: - % r: 0 / 0
Hunt - (s+) # 1103 (the Graytrem hills) f: 100 % r: 0 / 0 up(1307)

Not sure how busy you have been defiling lately, but keep in mind there is a 3-shrine defiling limit that was mentioned in one of the announce posts.

Iniar · July 2015

Garryn said:

Shrines up to 3 rooms away count towards the immunity limit, with decreasing strength.

Yes but they're all protecting each other? Every one of those shrines gives me an 'immunity' message, and there are no other nearby shrines that are vulnerable. It's like a circular thing

Eldreth · July 2015

From a prior Dec post:

But even in Demon's Pass you can build shrines that cannot be defiled. For example, if a level 4 has two level 4 shrines (of the same cult/sect) 1 room away then that level 4 shrine cannot be defiled. Or 3 level 4 shrines two rooms away. Or some combination thereof. You can build your shrine network so that it has only a few shrines that can be defiled at all, and use relics such as Aegis to make those shrines extremely hard to defile.

So it would seem that based on the geography of how the rooms are connected, you would expect to find an immune block, outside of maybe a straight line and your endpoint is vulnerable (though I think the shrines you refer to are on a straight line?)

Dec · July 2015

It does appear possible to create a network of completely undefileable shrines. I can't say that this was what I had in mind originally, but we are still considering what, if anything, to do about it. Possible options include:

Do nothing
Have a rare consumable object that permits one to defile an otherwise immune shrine
Increase the number of nearby shrines such that only very tiny immune clusters could exist
Create some other mechanic to attack shrines that are immune from defiling

Still working on revising relics. I got distracted by other shiny stuff though.

Khizan · July 2015

I don't like this one because it's too easy to make immune clusters.
Example:
[s]
|
[s]--[s]--[s]

Every one of those shrines has 3 L3 shrines within 2 squares of it. So they're all immune. Any room with 3+ exits can be an immune block, and you can tie two immune blocks together very easily.

[s] [s]--[s]--[s]--[s]
| | |
[s]--[s]--[s]--[s] [s]--[s]--[s]
Every single one of those shrines is immune, and as long as you can build shrines in pairs you could keep building immune shrines off of multiple-exit endpoints.
This sort of removes the entire point of building a defensive network because it would let the enemy pick and choose their shrines, so you couldn't build to defend. I'm also generally opposed to making a rare consumable a necessity for shrine warfare, because the system sucks enough as it is.
A cluster here and a cluster there and I've got a whole lot of unassailable shrines in Demon's Pass.
I'd like to see attacking the cluster just require that you have a shrine in proximity to the shrine you want to attack. This creates a way to attack clusters, but it means that attacking the cluster requires that you have some skin in the game; attacking shrines would require building shrines.
Please to be making shrines less of a "set my alarm and wake up special for shrine warfare" thing because that crap is not sustainable.
Also please to be making faith easier to gain in bulk from things that are not mindless bashing. As it stands the only realistic way to build shrines is to pour far too many player hours into playing whack-a-mole with the undead.

Dec · July 2015

Khizan said:
I'd like to see attacking the cluster just require that you have a shrine in proximity to the shrine you want to attack. This creates a way to attack clusters, but it means that attacking the cluster requires that you have some skin in the game; attacking shrines would require building shrines.
This is an interesting idea. So basically you are proposing having the shrine unassailable (if it meets the criteria) unless your sect has a nearby shrine.
Please to be making shrines less of a "set my alarm and wake up special for shrine warfare" thing because that crap is not sustainable.
Please to be? Anyway, if you don't have a timer people would have to constantly be around or risk losing several shrines in the off hours. If you set it shorter, you have to have continuous attention to stand a chance to win or lose. If you have it longer you still have the complaints about the time interval interfering with the schedule and you make missing a single instance that much more important. If you set it to random times people will complain that they can't plan around it for fear that the next time will conflict. Not really sure what you're going for here.
Also please to be making faith easier to gain in bulk from things that are not mindless bashing. As it stands the only realistic way to build shrines is to pour far too many player hours into playing whack-a-mole with the undead.
We added faith gain to everything you gain experience for, and did so in such a way that faith gain would go faster overall. If you want a lot of faith quick, get a bunch of your friends, hang out in a shrine room for a while, then have a battle with a large number of an opposing faction in that room. Make sure you're high favoured as that impacts the faith gain you get for pk. You also get more faith the longer each side is in the contested room. You kill everyone from the other side (and not just the same person repeatedly) you should fill your faith meter pretty quickly. One PK can be worth up to 70,000 faith. Ignore everything I said, however, and the player kill will be worth only 2,000 faith.

I'm not adding faith gain for idling at the generator, no matter how much people claim it's more interesting than bashing.

Khizan · July 2015

1) Yeah, that's pretty much what I mean. Proximity to an opposing shrine makes an otherwise immune shrine vulnerable to members of that opposing sect.

2) The problem with this is that it ends up as kind of a race to the bottom. If Septus and I are willing to set our alarms and take care of shrine business at 3am, then any side that isn't willing to do the same thing gives up a huge advantage to us, one that's sizable enough to damn near decide the contest then and there; getting a free sanctify/defile in is huge. It's just not a healthy game dynamic to have.

And it's not even all set-the-alarm stuff. Septus is GMT, so our 3am is his mid-morning. A circle that doesn't have a euro PvPer has to wake up in the middle of the night to counter the attack that's at a totally reasonable time for him. And so, they can either suck it up and get up at godawful hours, or they can lose. It's just a crappy feeling mechanic.

3) I don't expect faith for stuff like sitting at the generator. I would like general PK to be worth more, though, because your scenario there is based upon us sitting on our shrine and their team being willing to charge it. This is not really a viable thing for shardfalls or caravans or monoliths or city fighting or generally any of the common PvP sources. I would happily deal with shrine kills being worth less faith if general issue PvP could be worth more.

If that means that giant cross-faction brawls in Caanae become a better source of belief than bashing, then IMO that just means that you're Doing It Right.

Dec · July 2015

Khizan said:
2) The problem with this is that it ends up as kind of a race to the bottom. If Septus and I are willing to set our alarms and take care of shrine business at 3am, then any side that isn't willing to do the same thing gives up a huge advantage to us, one that's sizable enough to damn near decide the contest then and there; getting a free sanctify/defile in is huge. It's just not a healthy game dynamic to have.
And it's not even all set-the-alarm stuff. Septus is GMT, so our 3am is his mid-morning. A circle that doesn't have a euro PvPer has to wake up in the middle of the night to counter the attack that's at a totally reasonable time for him. And so, they can either suck it up and get up at godawful hours, or they can lose. It's just a crappy feeling mechanic.

This isn't something that I'm unwilling to push to change, but my point is that there isn't a clear winner on what to change it to.

Aakrin · July 2015

Change it to having a declaration system. Sect A can declare war on Sect B. Neither Sect can build shrines during the war. Sect A or Sect B can admit defeat at any time, costing 25% belief and removing their ability to build shrines for one game year. The winner of the war cannot declare war on the loser within five years of beating that sect.

Shrines cannot be defiled unless both sects have X or more members online.

Khizan · July 2015

Aakrin said:

Shrines cannot be defiled unless both sects have X or more members online.

This is an absolutely awful idea because it makes "logging off" into the absolute most effective defense against defiling which is absolutely a thing that you do NOT want to encourage.

Aakrin · July 2015

....if they log off after you defile, then the defile goes through and you win that round.

Khizan · July 2015

You look at the thing and go "Oh crap, we're above defile numbers, people need to log off before they hit us".

That's clearly optimal and clearly awful.

Shou · July 2015

While it's certainly a fresh change from 'this is bad but I have no idea how to make it better', I disagree with your idea, @Aakrin. I would foresee a lot of stalemates with that system in addition to the methods in place right now.

First of all: 25% is a pittance for losing a war. The real punishment and issue is being unable to build. Continued in #2.

Secondly: shrine building is essential in a close defiling match. Shrine placement and proximity affects defiling damage, which can be HARSHLY reduced by even a single aegis relic.

Third: it would be extremely easy to IMMEDIATELY cut any losses at all. Sect A declares war on Sect B. Sect B feels its shrines are more important than any possible gains. Sect B surrenders before any damage can be dealt. 25% belief (Again, nothing at all) and a 12 day restriction on shrine building for a 60 day immunity to defiling? Sign me up.

Fourth: (nvm, khizan sniped me because I'm slow)

If something like this were to be implemented, some values/events would need to be looked at. If I'm unable to build a shrine close to my target to increase the effectiveness of defiles (which, as a reminder, is the sole reason nearby shrines affect the value of defile), I could be doing less than 15% damage to an unaegis'd shrine. Significantly less. As an example since iniar chose a terrible shrine, with 6% defiles, we could ignore two full attempts and get back to 100%. With a single aegis, we can ignore 5.

I would instead propose that declaring war cost belief, with added significant monthly costs for both sides to avoid permanent stalemates.

Since I can't find an alternative for having a certain amount of people online, how about changing how shrine % works (let's call it shrine integrity for now)?

Have defiling require making the shrine 'vulnerable'. Activated by a short channel, this action will alert the sect and take effect 1 minute after starting. After completing, the shrine will be open to defilement for 10 minutes. A player can only defile once, but multiple people will be allowed to do it. These will be worth less (I'm throwing out a 10% faith, 1% integrity value as a guess). The cooldown period will be reduced back to hourly. This reduces the occurrence of late night 1-man armies dealing the same damage as a 5v5 prime time battle.

Every month, a shrine regenerates a certain amount of integrity based on the level. Increase the essence values for level upgrading so not every single shrine in existence is level 4. Make a level 1 shrine require 100 essence points to function but allow it to house relics. Level 2 shrines can be used as a stepping point to build from (currently the level 3 perk). Level 3 and 4 would just make defiling less effective.

As for how much a shrine should recover, I haven't thought of that number yet. Ideally, it would be high enough to make shrines semi-difficult to destroy, while being low enough to allow dedicated effort to not be completely undone, even at level 4. Since shrines would generate their own integrity, sanctifying should either be removed or made less valuable as well, only available after being defiled and requiring a similar 'vulnerable' state, alerting the opposing sect.

*edit: some clarification on defiling amounts. Changed 'too easy to destroy' to 'semi-difficult to destroy', like I intended.

Khizan · July 2015

My biggest concern about something like you mentioned is that it makes numbers into a huge factor; this encourages participation but at some level it all becomes a numbers game. This utterly guts the ability of a small sect to fight against a larger sect; even when you win your fights the wins the wins will be less meaningful.

Shou · July 2015

Even at 1% per person? What if it was every 2 hours? What if you could 'stabilize' a shrine before the timer was up, to undo or halve any actions done to it? I threw out an idea without really thinking too far into it. Any suggestion is a good one.

Iniar · July 2015

My shrine choice was meant to be stealthy.

clearly I have no idea how this whole thing works!

Khizan · July 2015

Shou said:

Even at 1% per person? What if it was every 2 hours? What if you could 'stabilize' a shrine before the timer was up, to undo or halve any actions done to it? I threw out an idea without really thinking too far into it. Any suggestion is a good one.

Yeah.

The thing is, working like that the actual numbers are sort of immaterial. No matter how much each sanctify/defile does and no matter what interval it's at, the six man team will always have twice the impact of the 3 man team.

Kristos · July 2015

The 1% per person would be awful for a sect like Storms. Even if everyone who is willing to fight is around it only leaves us at 5-6 people and the odds of all of us being around at the same time is slim to none.

Shrines, Religion and other Mumbo Jumbo

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