Split Discussion: Improving Imperian - Theft

Eoghan

This discussion was created from comments split from: Improving Imperian.

Jules

You really don't see much (or any) theft in Imperian.  In fact, it's just good manners to return gold here, for example (some of the other games definitely do NOT do that, and if they do return someone's gold, they want a trophy for being such a nice guy).  We have plenty of fun beating the tar out of each other without trying to take some poor guy's stuff (and it really is usually some poor guy).  It's also really not necessarily AFK-ers - which is a lot of why theft was allowed in the first place.    

But... it's still perfectly legit in the rulebook.  I'd love to see theft yanked from the game entirely, if not in mechanics, from the rule book.  The player culture is such that theft really doesn't exist here, but all it would take is some bored players from one of the other IRE games to come on over and wreck our S&%! What worries me more than the havoc that would wreak in the short term though, is that it could somehow become legitimized - especially since it IS technically legitimate as things stand right now.  It would be especially problematic in Imperian, exactly because death isn't much of a consequence (not that thief players tend to care much about death anyway), while the losses to the players who are stolen from would probably have real significance.  

Khizan

Jules said:

You really don't see much (or any) theft in Imperian.  In fact, it's just good manners to return gold here, for example (some of the other games definitely do NOT do that, and if they do return someone's gold, they want a trophy for being such a nice guy).  We have plenty of fun beating the tar out of each other without trying to take some poor guy's stuff (and it really is usually some poor guy).  It's also really not necessarily AFK-ers - which is a lot of why theft was allowed in the first place.    

You are no daughter of mine.

You take that gold and then you mock them about it. Do you understand me, young lady? 

Iniar

Jules said:

You really don't see much (or any) theft in Imperian.  In fact, it's just good manners to return gold here, for example (some of the other games definitely do NOT do that, and if they do return someone's gold, they want a trophy for being such a nice guy).  We have plenty of fun beating the tar out of each other without trying to take some poor guy's stuff (and it really is usually some poor guy).  It's also really not necessarily AFK-ers - which is a lot of why theft was allowed in the first place.    

But... it's still perfectly legit in the rulebook.  I'd love to see theft yanked from the game entirely, if not in mechanics, from the rule book.  The player culture is such that theft really doesn't exist here, but all it would take is some bored players from one of the other IRE games to come on over and wreck our S&%! What worries me more than the havoc that would wreak in the short term though, is that it could somehow become legitimized - especially since it IS technically legitimate as things stand right now.  It would be especially problematic in Imperian, exactly because death isn't much of a consequence (not that thief players tend to care much about death anyway), while the losses to the players who are stolen from would probably have real significance.  

Did something happen?

Jules

No, not at all.  I just don't want to see a good thing messed with, and yeah, as things stand it's pretty much enshrined in HELP PK - it's even discussed in COMBATPRINCIPLES.

Also, just for clarity, dropped gold is more gray (I mean, assuming you didn't force them to take it out or something).  It's definitely not theft per se.  A lot of people do seem to try to return it here, and I think that's a nice player culture thing I'd hate to see go away - but it's also probably damned near impossible to enforce as an actual standard if people decided to stop doing it.  I just mentioned it as a way of showing how our current player base behaves vs. other games where theft is very much a part of the accepted norms.  Anyway, I do mean actively stealing from people.  

Kryss

If someone drops their gold, I'll keep it. If I have PK on someone and have the chance to pilfer their belongings via forced commands, I'll do it. I expect the same things to happen to me and take measures to prevent them since it's not exactly hard to secure your gold and inventory.

Iniar

I think for me it depends who dropped the gold if say, @Jules dropped it, I ain't returning it :O :P

Eldreth

There was a phase there where if you needed a major loan you were better off just killing Shou for the pinata candy.

Shou

That happened at most... maybe a bunch of times.

Jules

Also, everyone go hide your gold/sentimental items under the mattress now that we're having this little chat  

Theophilus

Anyone who keeps dropped gold is terrible imho.

Shou

I keep gold if said person has stolen from Shou before. I keep gold if I ask my enemies whose gold it was and get no response (what am I supposed to do, leave it there and hope only the owner notices it?). I keep gold if you threaten Shou or Shou's wife. I also keep it if it's like.. under 10k.

It's as simple as that, really.

*edit: No amount kept from novices, don't know if I need to say that.

Khizan

Shou said:

I keep gold if said person has stolen from Shou before.

Shou is going to keep all the gold I drop forever

My personal policy is that I keep all the gold unless I'm feeling particularly nice that day, in which case I will return ~2/3rds of the gold.

Shou

Khizan said:

Shou said:

I keep gold if said person has stolen from Shou before.

Shou is going to keep all the gold I drop forever

My personal policy is that I keep all the gold unless I'm feeling particularly nice that day, in which case I will return ~2/3rds of the gold.

I dream about that bag all the time. It haunts me.

Dreacor

Gladly there is a lot of players who will return the dropped gold. I personally tend to return the dropped gold if I'm facing someone who holding their gold in their hands.

And as many has said, there is situations where you just keep the gold.

But about actual stealing; I have never experienced theft where someone forced me to hand my gold or belonging to the enemy. As Kryss earlier mentioned that we need to take responsibility to secure our own items and try to prevent the theft, I fully agree. After all, this is one more thing to do in Imperian, even in PK. I personally don't like if the theft mechanics would be removed. Well, that could be limited to Newbies, where you can't steal anything from them except items which hurts affinity?

Rasca

My official policy on the matter is:

What gold?

Assiminik

Kryss said:

If someone drops their gold, I'll keep it. If I have PK on someone and have the chance to pilfer their belongings via forced commands, I'll do it. I expect the same things to happen to me and take measures to prevent them since it's not exactly hard to secure your gold and inventory.

Liar! (In a good way... she returned my gold when I dropped it.)

Jules

I don't know if people realize how vulnerable our population probably is if even one real thief from another game came over.  I mean, we have people carrying large sums of gold in their HANDS (athough again, while I love that we have a sort of player tradition of returning it, keeping dropped gold that someone forgot to put away is not what I am talking about when I say "theft").  I am scarred for life being born and raised in old Achaea and always put mine away :P but I'm actually glad people feel carefree enough about things that they sometimes forget to put their gold away before charging in to battle, because it means they feel freed to focus on fighting without worrying about being robbed.  Almost no one keeps selfishness up here because it's inconvenient in battle.  I kept it up for the longest time until I was told to not bother.  And to deal with a real thief you do need someone who really understands their techniques to help you set up some triggers.  As well, those triggers usually assume they don't have actual "PK" on you, because that allows them to use much more effective tactics.  

But yeah, our player base would be like shearing lambs for a real thief, I think - and, of course, they could start teaching other thieves.  And while I absolutely LOVE that dying doesn't really hurt in Imperian, that makes things even more problematic with theft, since thieves tend to just not care about death anyway, and would have even less reason to care here.  They can take something of real value, you can... send them to Dis for a few minutes.  Maybe.    

Almost everything in Imperian is built around lots of fun conflict with very little in the way of actual losses, and that frees people to walk into situations where the odds really are against them, because why not?  A real thief could change all of that.  Especially since we almost always have "PK" on one another.  And with our emphasis on group combat, thieves might be able to come up with techniques that take full advantage of hinder/blackout/force skills (and probably more I'm not knowledgeable enough to think of).  I think it could be pretty bad, and we're just lucky it hasn't happened.  Yet.  We have a really good game here that is lots of fun, and I feel super protective of it, basically.  

EDIT:  To sum up how I always feel about things like this, and why Imperian has a huge leg up on all of the other IRE games:  conflict is the most fun and most inclusive when there is plenty of perceived risk/danger, but very little (or even no) risk of losing actual time/RL money. 

Rasca

Theft (or the potential for theft) sells artifact/token packs and coin purses. Between bank accounts, clarity and all the other tools available to players to prevent serious loss/theft, this is sort of a strange discussion to have, isn't it?

Jules

Well, yeah.  With banks, one of the other games (which does have a lot of theft) significantly lowered their bank fees, which really does mean that using banks makes complete sense.  It was a really good change.  And, Jules, for example, could definitely make it so she'd pretty much never have to worry about any significant theft.  Ever.  Using her existing array of credit whore items.  It would be somewhat annoying and inconvenient, but very doable for her.  It seems to always be far more difficult for players who don't buy credits in 5K increments to deal with theft in games where it is a big thing.  But yeah, at the moment, we already don't have any significant theft in Imperian.  I just want to make sure it stays that way.  

Kryss

Assiminik said:

Kryss said:

If someone drops their gold, I'll keep it. If I have PK on someone and have the chance to pilfer their belongings via forced commands, I'll do it. I expect the same things to happen to me and take measures to prevent them since it's not exactly hard to secure your gold and inventory.

Liar! (In a good way... she returned my gold when I dropped it.)

Just tell everyone why don't you. =[

Iniar

I think the only person I know that -repeatedly- has gold out in her hands is that @Celestine.

Celestine

Iniar said:

I think the only person I know that -repeatedly- has gold out in her hands is that @Celestine.

I was waiting for you to mention something to do with 'Pinata Princess', since you know, Ahkan isn't around right now.

Selthis

She can't be bothered to take the plastic coating off of electronics, why would you think she would take the time to put her gold in her pack. 

Celestine

Selthis said:

She can't be bothered to take the plastic coating off of electronics, why would you think she would take the time to put her gold in her pack. 

I just wanted to protect my laptop longer, especially considering I have a three year old! I can never have nice things. BTW - The plastic coating is still on the outside emblems and around my keyboard, Just thought you would want to know.

Dicene

I think this sort of thing might be a good purchase then, @Celestine:

http://www.amazon.com/Speck-Products-SeeThru-13-Inch-SPK-A2831/dp/B007VSDKCO/ref=pd_sim_sbs_147_1/177-6508740-0552537?ie=UTF8&refRID=02FJX9P4DYHB37EQSGJN

http://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-Ultra-Clear-Keyboard-Macbook/dp/B007FL6100/ref=pd_sim_147_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1AY48CD9FTXE4RVHK5A9

Selthis

Celestine said:

I just wanted to protect my laptop longer, especially considering I have a three year old! I can never have nice things. BTW - The plastic coating is still on the outside emblems and around my keyboard, Just thought you would want to know.

Monster!

Jules

I was going to judge at first, but she had REASONS!  I hear 3 year olds can sense weakness.  

Celestine

Dicene said:

I think this sort of thing might be a good purchase then, @Celestine:

http://www.amazon.com/Speck-Products-SeeThru-13-Inch-SPK-A2831/dp/B007VSDKCO/ref=pd_sim_sbs_147_1/177-6508740-0552537?ie=UTF8&refRID=02FJX9P4DYHB37EQSGJN

http://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-Ultra-Clear-Keyboard-Macbook/dp/B007FL6100/ref=pd_sim_147_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1AY48CD9FTXE4RVHK5A9

There is one problem - I have this: http://www.msi.com/product/nb/GE70-2PE-Apache-Pro.html#hero-overview

Dicene

Put laptop in safe place, use cheap peripherals. Problem solved. =P

Eoghan

On-topic response:

This probably isn't what you want to hear, but it does add some clarification.

While I personally think that theft is sort of lame, it is also a legal and viable way of generating conflict. Any existing method of theft is an aggressive action, so it shouldn't be taken on someone you have no reason to target. As long as that guideline is kept, the only specific case of theft that will cause us to step in is the case of crippling org theft. At the current time, we have no plans to make changes, policy or mechanical, related to player theft in Imperian.

What this means: You mentioned worrying about methods of theft that can target anyone - that just doesn't exist. Forced commands are still aggressive actions, and you shouldn't be taking them willy-nilly. If you give someone a reason to target you, their targeting can include theft.