Having not participated, and only analyzed the system on paper and feedback from you guys to the Admin, I think I'd prefer it Ahkan's way, all the way up until we unlock the things that allow the circles to become independent of the other ones in terms of their resistance against the Horde. With no technology to back any individual circle in their methods (i.e being self-sufficient with the Beacons system just yet), it would make sense for us all to go about the task of unlocking the system as a whole first.
The system looks like it has potential to be a renewable conflict system, so long as they remain relevant to daily gameplay, which is cool.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Disclaimer: I'm not in the habit of calling other people bad roleplayers, and nothing in the following post should be considered as anything other than respectful disagreement on the merits of an argument.
The only questions that need to be asked on whether or not somebody is roleplaying correctly is to answer the following: 1) Is their character behaving in a manner consistent with their life history, TO INCLUDE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT that may have happened along the way? 2) Can their character possibly exist within the context of the game's universe?
Here's where I think things become slightly problematic for the notion of Cross-Circling. While it's obviously not impossible to envisage a life story for your character that makes them blaze about the other two circles, anyone with a remotely normal upbringing in any of the Imperian major urban centers should be pretty damn radicalized on the subject.
To Stavenn and Kinsarmar, the Anti-Magickers are some cross between Al-Queda and the Spanish Inquisition. A band of fanatics utterly and irretrievably convinced of the supremacy of their way of life, fixated on the notion that you pose a threat to the entire world and single-minded in your destruction. Your greatest heroes are those who stood against Magick/Demonic foes, your streets are filled with preachers and clerics decrying the folly of mankind's dabling with forbidden powers etc etc etc. Could you put aside that conditioning in the face of a single, greater existential threat to all of sentient kind? Maybe. Does it make a ton of sense when it happens over the comparatively trivial (and I'm sorry, 'that orc caravan has a thingy!' is trivial)? Less so.
It's also worth noting that you're struggling uphill against history somewhat in making this argument. Through no fault of your own, a lot of those who have walked the cross-circling path before have been utter muppets who just wanted to play in Stavenn without giving up their easy-mode mage class or cleric super-fortress of talent (tm).
Again, none of this is to say that you can't get good roleplay out of cross-circling; but it is a difficult thing to do properly and you do start with the burden of proof very much on you.
You make a good point as to whether or not the value of quartz actually trumps a person's cause, but as Ahkan pointed out: The Gods are dead. The forces that had the ablity to push the circle lines hardest died aeons ago and all that are left are the cults that are but a fraction of an echo of the majesty that once graced the planet. In fact, the gods dying event happened... what? Two RL years ago? Heck, anybody whose character's birthdate reads "AM" in place of "AD" has no living memory of these Gods, merely stories they were told about beings who have no power anymore. Now, whether this lack of resistance means "quartz is totally worth it" or not is a question I don't know the answer to myself, perhaps somebody more familiar with the system has seen something more, of course if it's all an unknown then my thoughts would be "would rather do this and discover our hard work rewarded us with a crate filled with The Last Airbender DVDs than not and discover we missed out on rideable dinosaurs with laser turrets on top."
When even the priests and clerics declare "the Gods are dead", it makes it very easy for somebody to ask the question "why should we listen to them?" I don't know about the cults thing, so maybe the entities have preached a hard line and are actively zapping those who fail to toe that line in the interest of self-preservation, or even in the interest of shinies. However, if they haven't, it does make one respond to the zealous crazies with "why?". Again, keep in mind you're talking to somebody who considers the Gods to be nothing more than characters in a story, perhaps their echoes live on but most born after that event probably wouldn't care overly much.
Perhaps things will change, perhaps my character will become the magickal equivalent of a zealot (though, that's kind of difficult to pull off honestly) or a jingoist who'd rather burn than suffer the enemy to work in the same area, I don't know... all I know is today she will follow orders and for now will trust in her superiors to make the right calls at the right times, and at present is very much a moderate on the whole thing (considers AM irrational and demonic of unsound judgement, but is not out to butcher either group for heresy or because it's the only way). And if those calls say "Don't hit Ahkan or Wysrias," she'll follow said orders without question (you know, when I get her to a point where I can feel comfortable actually getting into a fight).
@Emori, I could understand cross circling so to speak before circles were a thing. The game now requires that you be part of a city/council to fully participate in most new systems they come out with. So what does this mean? If I choose to interact with another circle on a friendly level, I'm likely to be cast out of my current city/council. So what am I to do? I just spent 900 credits tri-transing this character and now because of circles, I can't just go join whatever city/council anymore because my profession prevents me from doing so. Circles might have made clear cut and dry "you are against this, and they are against that", but the avenue of chilling with the enemies because you want to take your character that way has been put into a 3 year traffic jam of non-movement because of it.
It's not an 'A or B' scenario. You illustrate it as only two possible outcomes. I just stated that I don't care overly much that the more intelligent portion of Antioch is going out of their way to acquire quartz faster rather than in a fashion where we have to slog and fight for it - that means I'm probably going to go out of my way to overlook it if somebody complains. During the ouroboros statue, that (going versus the world and slugging it out to keep the statue and hog the essence) was fun/feasible because I knew they would never attach something 'dire' to a sect-level system, so I didn't mind being outnumbered. When the victory of the battle has ramifications for a city/council (like now, with acquiring quartz being such an important task for 'global power' - getting to it the fastest gives you a pretty sizable edge in establishing dominance in the system at least for a few weeks/months), which is basically the most important basis of your circle's power, then the rules are a little different.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
# of people kicked out for cross circling in the past 3 years is likely 0. Everyone blows how air over it (Lionas) but no one ever follows through. Clinging to absolutes is largely why there's no significant roleplay outside of your micro environments.
"I never roleplay, but when I do it isolates 98% of the game."
@Emori, I could understand cross circling so to speak before circles were a thing. The game now requires that you be part of a city/council to fully participate in most new systems they come out with. So what does this mean? If I choose to interact with another circle on a friendly level, I'm likely to be cast out of my current city/council. So what am I to do? I just spent 900 credits tri-transing this character and now because of circles, I can't just go join whatever city/council anymore because my profession prevents me from doing so. Circles might have made clear cut and dry "you are against this, and they are against that", but the avenue of chilling with the enemies because you want to take your character that way has been put into a 3 year traffic jam of non-movement because of it.
Mostly I'm speaking to the validity of the RP stance of "I'm not going to be so zealous about this as others" or "I'm not going to go out of my way to kill people just for being there", I'm aware that the consequences of such actions may be meted out by people of a very different mind and having a valid RP path does not mean the attempts of others to disrupt it/punish it are less valid.
Though naturally yes, somebody with no power or authority to make those sorts of calls would probably be better of just sticking to the party line until they are in a position where they can get away with it (if ever), absolutely. Knowing when you can get away with it... well... that's just knowing how to read the air.
Why would anyone in Stavenn want to ally, even tentatively, to people who just a few months ago plundered Stavenn townes, or someone who regularly waltzes into Stavenn for a game of ring around the raksha?
If Khandava wants to tag along with the big guys and pretend to be in the cool kids clique, fine, but the vast majority of Stavenn (and by extension a vast majority of the demonic circle) is adamantly against it. Don't be surprised if none of us invite you to our birthday party.
-----
I agree with Sagron on this. The game has pushed us for nearly a decade into rigidly defined circles of thought. I would adore going back to 2005 and having stupid shit like druids and priests allowed in Stavenn, but the game mechanics strictly penalize it and magick and AM would hate it as much as they did last time it was allowed without penalties.
Orc caravan shinies are not a proper motivator for me to drop Linslet's "I am angryface at you guys" RP. Sorry. No dice.
@Ahkan, anyone who has played 5+ years pretty much gets a pass on 95% of the crap they pull(which I think hinders role play just as much your "micro environment" scenario). My scenario suggested a newer player investing in his profession, thus having a less lenient leash so to speak.
With all that being said, yes, there are times for cross circling. But it should really only be reserved for MAJOR times of need. Like when Delrayne went to all city/council leaders to get them to all meet for a possible alliance when the gods were dying. These caravans don't classify as that, just because people want to rush their way to beacons and through the skill tree, in my opinion.
If Stavenn doesn't want to work with Khandava on grabbing quartz because Khandava is working with Antioch occassionally, that's totally fine. Let's do it! We can make real RP out of it.
Thankfully for everyone involved, the definition of 'good RP' is broad, and every character is different. It's good to have your personal take on the issue and understand where your character stands, but nobody needs to be dictating what should be spurring other characters' choices. Some legitimately don't care about circle beyond the lines they're coloring within, while others use it as the sole basis for their RP, and then there's everyone in between. That's what makes it more interesting than an entire city of mirror personalities.
Also, anyone who is kicking anyone out of a city/council for chilling with non-circle folk is doing it wrong, and I mean this. There are maybe 40-50 people online at peak times; some orgs, you will literally be the only one online when you're playing. A multiplayer game requires more people, so unless there's a sudden burst in popularity, some concessions have to be made for the sake of actually enjoying the game. If you want to hardline your character and spend hours in silence, more power to you, but expecting everyone else to do the same is frankly lazy thinking.
It's really a matter of perspective. I used to be rigidly rarar Khandava back when in Downsdava was a snuggletown and we rode puffins. After a hundred or so years, Derpface (Ahkan) realized that your allies are constantly coming in/out and that may not change who they are. It helps that Khandava and derpface are very ends determine the means. Derpface approaches scenarios based on what the objective is and how best to fulfill that objective. To turn your argument back on you, two years ago, Menoch and Kryss were raiding Khandava and Mathiaus was giving my guards some of the best target practice of their lives. As a player, should I cling to my ho-hum absolutes and ignore the vast majority of my only ally? No.
It's also important to mention that Stavenn is not exactly 'innocent' in this ordeal. You poked the bear and it bit you. You're still having a couple after shocks from pissing off the world during the death rattle of the empire roleplay. The first time I power teamed with Ultrix went like... Do you hate orcs? omg, I hate orcs too. You hate druids? ME TOO. And thus a friendship was born over the corpse of Alvetta, the white whale.
From my point of view, life is more fun when you're running around playing in the grey area. I'm buddies with people on both sides, but that's not going to stop me from duking it out with them. If we manage to find a common enemy, we'll dunk on them together.
Slightly edited this post to remove the more flamboyant (and closer to personal attacks) language. Preserved the rest, as it is a reasonable part of the conversation. - Eoghan
From my point of view, life is more fun when you're running around playing in the grey area. I'm buddies with people on both sides, but that's not going to stop me from duking it out with them. If we manage to find a common enemy, we'll dunk on them together.
This is the TL;DR.
The game is more fun for you when you get to pretend Cavalcade or your League of Legends 5's team or whatever is it's own faction. Completely understandable. Why not just say that and stop pretending it's some sophisticated moral evolution your character has undergone?
From my point of view, life is more fun when you're running around playing in the grey area. I'm buddies with people on both sides, but that's not going to stop me from duking it out with them. If we manage to find a common enemy, we'll dunk on them together.
This is the TL;DR.
The game is more fun for you when you get to pretend Cavalcade or your League of Legends 5's team or whatever is it's own faction. Completely understandable. Why not just say that and stop pretending it's some sophisticated moral evolution your character has undergone?
Probably because that's legitimately not the case. I really wish this thread wasn't full of so many people drawing assumptions about how others play their characters. It doesn't HAVE to be an OOC thing to collaborate with other circles. Plenty of characters who have been around since the gods all died have evolved their stance, both out of mechanical necessity and real character development. They don't have to be exclusive from one another.
Probably because that's legitimately not the case. I really wish this thread wasn't full of so many people drawing assumptions about how others play their characters. It doesn't HAVE to be an OOC thing to collaborate with other circles. Plenty of characters who have been around since the gods all died have evolved their stance, both out of mechanical necessity and real character development. They don't have to be exclusive from one another.
Without evidence to the contrary, I'll concede (for the sake of argument) that everyone who has been doing this stuff so far has had a solid RP reason. If you tell me that your characters had IC discussions about it, grappled with the issues involved and came up with an RP consistant stance, I'll take you at your word.
My problem is that there are systemic implications to the argument combination that runs: 1. The Gods are dead so what did they really know? 2. My character is a pragmatist. 3. I live in the Grey areas.
Number 1 is problematic because you can use it to discount literally anything you want.
Number 2 is problematic because you can use pragmatism as a justification for literally anything. My character has pragmatically decided that he stands the highest chance of achieving his objectives when he's got rites, vibes and a nightmare backing him up. What matter the petty feuds of yester-year when there is quartz to be had?
Number 3 is problematic because if handled responsibly it's fascinating RP, but if wielded like a blunt object to smash through conventions it's just an excuse to do whatever you like.
I can't speak for everyone involved, as I'm sure there are intentions involved that stray outside of good RP. I just take issue with the assumption that if it's being done, it MUST be because someone has abandoned their roleplay or has OOC motivations.
The issue at hand is really, what forces are driving the current game? Circles being a dividing point made a lot of sense when the game's storylines revolved around magick as this enigmatic force that each side had a take on. The problem is that this conflict literally hasn't evolved in years; characters who were born since the gods died or lived long enough to the same storylines repeat themselves ad nauseum have plenty of reason to be convinced that it's not as dire of a division as is commonly interpreted.
We have shards and quartz and beacons and whatever, which all have no explanation in the storyline, but presumably have zero to do with magick. The theme of working together to achieve a common goal has essentially been encouraged by the events involving fighting against the Horde. At what point is it okay to decide "this is a bigger problem"? Because a lot of characters have done exactly that.
I can't speak for everyone involved, as I'm sure there are intentions involved that stray outside of good RP. I just take issue with the assumption that if it's being done, it MUST be because someone has abandoned their roleplay or has OOC motivations.
Let's just agree that a healthy dose of skepticism should be applied?
We have shards and quartz and beacons and whatever, which all have no explanation in the storyline, but presumably have zero to do with magick. The theme of working together to achieve a common goal has essentially been encouraged by the events involving fighting against the Horde. At what point is it okay to decide "this is a bigger problem"? Because a lot of characters have done exactly that.
If we are incrementally sliding toward a WoW: Frozen Throne paradigm where the rival factions are all teamed up against fourth party existential threats that's cool, but I'm not sure we're there yet and I'm doubly unsure that such a slide is intended by the administration or good for the game in the long-term.
I agree it shouldn't be taken at face value. I'm not going to plug my ears and pretend everyone has an internally consistent character unaffected by OOC whims. Some of us haven't cared about circle for a very long time though, and this is only the latest visible instance.
I'm happy to be proven wrong in regards to the storyline direction. I just haven't seen any emphasis placed on circle beyond mechanical restrictions, e.g. separating shard research by faction. Entities are essentially toothless, so the only driving motivations have to come from the character (hardliner roleplay, again, it's not a bad thing, it's just not every character) and the environment.
@Wysrias, I'm not trying to dictate to anyone how they should play their characters RP. I'm just pointing out fallacies in some of these points of view when no one over 100 years old is involved. My blatant uses of "in my opinion" also suggest that.
People can play however they want if they can legitimize it. But if you take into account the entire scope of the world and the fact that the majority of people driving this game are 150+ years old, some of these choices just don't seem very likely to really happen. Just because you can do something to "speed" things along so to speak, doesn't mean you should if it isn't really in line with the history of your character/org/circle. And no, suddenly claiming pragmatism after 200 years isn't a very strong argument to that end.
Things of note, this isn't directed to any one character, but rather a broad generalization of everyone at large.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I don't think it's fair to make sweeping generalizations about characters' motivations. I think it's perfectly reasonable to adopt pragmatism after 200 years of fighting against an enemy that a) no longer seems dangerous on the grand scale of conflict and b) has never managed to tilt the balance in either direction. How do you know it's 'sudden'? Have you taken the time to interact and evaluate, or are you jumping to conclusions? A healthy dose of skepticism is great, but that doesn't mean embracing cynicism.
The zealot storyline is very common in antimagick. It's basically the cornerstone of their roleplay. Demonic, and in particular Khandava? It's exceedingly rare.
@Wysrias, I'm not trying to dictate to anyone how they should play their characters RP. I'm just pointing out fallacies in some of these points of view when no one over 100 years old is involved. My blatant uses of "in my opinion" also suggest that.
People can play however they want if they can legitimize it. But if you take into account the entire scope of the world and the fact that the majority of people driving this game are 150+ years old, some of these choices just don't seem very likely to really happen. Just because you can do something to "speed" things along so to speak, doesn't mean you should if it isn't really in line with the history of your character/org/circle. And no, suddenly claiming pragmatism after 200 years isn't a very strong argument to that end.
Things of note, this isn't directed to any one character, but rather a broad generalization of everyone at large.
Khizan has the right of it in that most characters, after two or three centuries, have probably moved on from the strict lines of ideology that the circles form - especially because one or more of those circles just so happens to have lost a chunk of their motivation over the past few years, in some way, shape, or form.
Look at it like this: Antioch needs SOME quartz before it can be self-sufficient enough to get ALL THE QUARTZ reliably. It so happens that Khandava also needs SOME quartz before it can be self-sufficient enough to get ALL THE QUARTZ reliably. I'm pretty sure that fact, combined with the common ground of 'these orcs took a dump on our lawn once or twice in recent memory' is a good enough motivator for something closer to 'pragmatism' or dropping the poorly written, poorly enforced, poorly backed up ideologies that we have been handed for ten years.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Comments
When even the priests and clerics declare "the Gods are dead", it makes it very easy for somebody to ask the question "why should we listen to them?" I don't know about the cults thing, so maybe the entities have preached a hard line and are actively zapping those who fail to toe that line in the interest of self-preservation, or even in the interest of shinies. However, if they haven't, it does make one respond to the zealous crazies with "why?". Again, keep in mind you're talking to somebody who considers the Gods to be nothing more than characters in a story, perhaps their echoes live on but most born after that event probably wouldn't care overly much.
Perhaps things will change, perhaps my character will become the magickal equivalent of a zealot (though, that's kind of difficult to pull off honestly) or a jingoist who'd rather burn than suffer the enemy to work in the same area, I don't know... all I know is today she will follow orders and for now will trust in her superiors to make the right calls at the right times, and at present is very much a moderate on the whole thing (considers AM irrational and demonic of unsound judgement, but is not out to butcher either group for heresy or because it's the only way). And if those calls say "Don't hit Ahkan or Wysrias," she'll follow said orders without question (you know, when I get her to a point where I can feel comfortable actually getting into a fight).
Though naturally yes, somebody with no power or authority to make those sorts of calls would probably be better of just sticking to the party line until they are in a position where they can get away with it (if ever), absolutely. Knowing when you can get away with it... well... that's just knowing how to read the air.
Why would anyone in Stavenn want to ally, even tentatively, to people who just a few months ago plundered Stavenn townes, or someone who regularly waltzes into Stavenn for a game of ring around the raksha?
If Khandava wants to tag along with the big guys and pretend to be in the cool kids clique, fine, but the vast majority of Stavenn (and by extension a vast majority of the demonic circle) is adamantly against it. Don't be surprised if none of us invite you to our birthday party.
-----
I agree with Sagron on this. The game has pushed us for nearly a decade into rigidly defined circles of thought. I would adore going back to 2005 and having stupid shit like druids and priests allowed in Stavenn, but the game mechanics strictly penalize it and magick and AM would hate it as much as they did last time it was allowed without penalties.
Orc caravan shinies are not a proper motivator for me to drop Linslet's "I am angryface at you guys" RP. Sorry. No dice.
With all that being said, yes, there are times for cross circling. But it should really only be reserved for MAJOR times of need. Like when Delrayne went to all city/council leaders to get them to all meet for a possible alliance when the gods were dying. These caravans don't classify as that, just because people want to rush their way to beacons and through the skill tree, in my opinion.
Thankfully for everyone involved, the definition of 'good RP' is broad, and every character is different. It's good to have your personal take on the issue and understand where your character stands, but nobody needs to be dictating what should be spurring other characters' choices. Some legitimately don't care about circle beyond the lines they're coloring within, while others use it as the sole basis for their RP, and then there's everyone in between. That's what makes it more interesting than an entire city of mirror personalities.
Also, anyone who is kicking anyone out of a city/council for chilling with non-circle folk is doing it wrong, and I mean this. There are maybe 40-50 people online at peak times; some orgs, you will literally be the only one online when you're playing. A multiplayer game requires more people, so unless there's a sudden burst in popularity, some concessions have to be made for the sake of actually enjoying the game. If you want to hardline your character and spend hours in silence, more power to you, but expecting everyone else to do the same is frankly lazy thinking.
It's also important to mention that Stavenn is not exactly 'innocent' in this ordeal. You poked the bear and it bit you. You're still having a couple after shocks from pissing off the world during the death rattle of the empire roleplay. The first time I power teamed with Ultrix went like... Do you hate orcs? omg, I hate orcs too. You hate druids? ME TOO. And thus a friendship was born over the corpse of Alvetta, the white whale.
This is the TL;DR.
The game is more fun for you when you get to pretend Cavalcade or your League of Legends 5's team or whatever is it's own faction. Completely understandable. Why not just say that and stop pretending it's some sophisticated moral evolution your character has undergone?
My problem is that there are systemic implications to the argument combination that runs:
1. The Gods are dead so what did they really know?
2. My character is a pragmatist.
3. I live in the Grey areas.
Number 1 is problematic because you can use it to discount literally anything you want.
Number 2 is problematic because you can use pragmatism as a justification for literally anything. My character has pragmatically decided that he stands the highest chance of achieving his objectives when he's got rites, vibes and a nightmare backing him up. What matter the petty feuds of yester-year when there is quartz to be had?
Number 3 is problematic because if handled responsibly it's fascinating RP, but if wielded like a blunt object to smash through conventions it's just an excuse to do whatever you like.
The issue at hand is really, what forces are driving the current game? Circles being a dividing point made a lot of sense when the game's storylines revolved around magick as this enigmatic force that each side had a take on. The problem is that this conflict literally hasn't evolved in years; characters who were born since the gods died or lived long enough to the same storylines repeat themselves ad nauseum have plenty of reason to be convinced that it's not as dire of a division as is commonly interpreted.
We have shards and quartz and beacons and whatever, which all have no explanation in the storyline, but presumably have zero to do with magick. The theme of working together to achieve a common goal has essentially been encouraged by the events involving fighting against the Horde. At what point is it okay to decide "this is a bigger problem"? Because a lot of characters have done exactly that.
Let's just agree that a healthy dose of skepticism should be applied?If we are incrementally sliding toward a WoW: Frozen Throne paradigm where the rival factions are all teamed up against fourth party existential threats that's cool, but I'm not sure we're there yet and I'm doubly unsure that such a slide is intended by the administration or good for the game in the long-term.
I'm happy to be proven wrong in regards to the storyline direction. I just haven't seen any emphasis placed on circle beyond mechanical restrictions, e.g. separating shard research by faction. Entities are essentially toothless, so the only driving motivations have to come from the character (hardliner roleplay, again, it's not a bad thing, it's just not every character) and the environment.
People can play however they want if they can legitimize it. But if you take into account the entire scope of the world and the fact that the majority of people driving this game are 150+ years old, some of these choices just don't seem very likely to really happen. Just because you can do something to "speed" things along so to speak, doesn't mean you should if it isn't really in line with the history of your character/org/circle. And no, suddenly claiming pragmatism after 200 years isn't a very strong argument to that end.
Things of note, this isn't directed to any one character, but rather a broad generalization of everyone at large.
The zealot storyline is very common in antimagick. It's basically the cornerstone of their roleplay. Demonic, and in particular Khandava? It's exceedingly rare.