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Split discussion: Changes to Redemption

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Comments

  • EldrethEldreth Member Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks. Seems redemption is more than a free tattoo slot then.
    “We abjure labels. We fight for money and an indefinable pride. The politics, the ethics, the moralities, are irrelevant."
    image
    AhkanMenoch
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Welp, apparently I'm never circle hopping against. Nerfed Flare, nerfed Redemption. :(
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
    Eldreth
  • KalcerKalcer Member Posts: 17
    I lose my animals but not my wyrm when I starburst.. It sucks.
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What? I thought we removed pets from the game? 
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭✭
    Bards lose all their defensive songs on starburst.
    image
  • KryssKryss Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭
    So lemme get this straight. Redemption frees up a tattoo slot if you want and you get to keep your rites and such when you die? Uhm, that's bad how?

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014

    Redemption's on-fire cost is high enough that you'll almost never get to use it in any kind of extended fight. Rites going down will leave you at ~ 1700 max and it costs 1500 to fire. Hell, just convocating rites in is 800 and any use of devotion in combat will ensure that you never have the devotion level required to fire it in a fight.

    This means that you're going to need a regular starburst, which means that it doesn't actually save a tattoo slot. And so while it's nice to have the effect while bashing, a trans skill that's basically a bashing specific starburst is sort of lackluster, imo.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

    BathanDelrayne
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    Is devotion's regen amount now that the gating resources are somewhat more dynamic different from essence's? If so, the regen is so insanely fast there's really no reason you shouldn't have 1500 after convocating unless you die immediately, which makes it kind of irrelevant anyway.
  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was being lazy and getting my numbers for posts from ABs; the AB for convergence was wrong and it only costs 200 devotion, so my numbers were off. However, with that said.

    I have 1720 devotion after rites are laid, because each rite laid reduces your maximum devotion down from 2000. 

    So, you basically have 220 devotion to play with if you want redemption to work.

    1. Convergence: 200 devotion
    2. Flare: 100 devotion
    3. Penance: 200 devotion
    4. Force: 150 devotion
    5. Pilgrimage: 500 devotion
    6. Hands: 120 devotion
    7. Parting: 100 devotion

    So, basically, you can have redemption fire so long as you watch your devotion like a hawk and you never spend out of that 220 devotion window. Did you pilg in? You don't get to redempt. Dropped rites and flared once? Don't get to redempt. Etc, etc.

    This makes Redemption pretty crappy as a trans skill; it's a starburst tattoo that only works when you're bashing or when you get alpha-struck before actually getting to do anything. And once it fires, it's going to steal all your resources so that you won't be able to do anything after it fires.

    And, yes, it doesn't steal rites. I don't view this as an amazing feature, though, because there are TONS of classes out there who manage to starburst without getting their setup utterly trashed, and many of them(Summoner, Monk, DK, Runeguard) have amazing offensive potential; they're just lucky enough not to depend on pets or rites and so they have nothing to get wiped by a death. 

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    That's grossly overstating the problem.

    In reality, a typical AM team composition is at least 20 templars with at least 5 clerics. That's like 25 sets of rites that do not overlap their effects on target. 24 people can have redemption up and 1 person can be the rites user.

    Smart use of laying rites let you set up flares and presto chango, you have burst offense + tanking ability.

    Most of this doesn't apply to 1v1 where you're seeing reduced costs on tick. Bad resource management should actually cause you to die in pk.

    **I mean sure, you can't gallivant around cleanse/dsl/flaring in full rights with 2 passive heals, bliss, passive damage, piety and be immune to death...but a man's gotta make sacrifices and "intelligent game play decisions" (which was used as an argument by the devotioners against everything that killed them).
    Mathiaus
  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    Khizan said:

    And so while it's nice to have the effect while bashing, a trans skill that's basically a bashing specific starburst is sort of lackluster, imo.

    Redemption would not be alone as lackluster trans skill.  See Runemaster for example.  Hell, even landsense is a crappy trans skill due to the duration/upkeep.  This was a needed changed and there should be some opportunity cost for it.

    Sarrius
  • WysriasWysrias Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭✭
    I think the cost on activation might be a little too high in conjunction with the starburst cooldown share; that's something I can agree with. The fact that it's the trans skill is completely irrelevant: plenty of skills have lackluster trans skills (death tarot? soulpact until it was removed?). If it's that upsetting, I would recommend changing it out with any of the worthy devotion defenses and rites that can be chosen from.

    Heck, the Necromancy trans skill is legitimately a defense/rez that Devotion can largely replicate earlier in the skill: Lich is Inspiration, for instance. Maybe make inspiration the trans skill! Or resurrection!


  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2014
    Devotion is a badass skillset. Devotion is too good. You shouldn't have all the amazing of devotion on all the time.

    Cleansing is worthy of a trans ability.
    Resurrection is worthy of a trans ability.
    Bloodsworn is worthy of a trans ability.
    Redemption is worthy of a trans ability.
    I'd even say flare is a trans ability. (Flare is still superior to soulstorm).

    Devotion is your secondary skill that brings utility, offensive, defensive abilities into play that are better than some primary skillsets. The skillset is too good and the players are too used to having their cake and eating it too. Now they're raging that they're starting to have to count calories.


    Post edited by Ahkan on
    IniarKryssMenochMathiaus
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    I wrote a long post that basically said what Ahkan said but not as concisely, and that's coming from the perspective of someone who has pk'd in 1v1 and teams with all three knight profs in the past year.
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    The only thing I see wrong with the change is threshold to fire and the cost to put it up. 1500 on both ends is a bit much. I'm not saying drop it down to 500 on both ends, but maybe 500 to put up 1000 to fire? I mean most of the numbers being thrown around are with the beads, why further punish those without the credits to offset the cost of their professions primary resource?

    When it comes to balance you have to think about the little guys too, not just the Khizans, Eldreths, and Riscas of the world.

  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2014
    We are thinking about the little guys rolling around with 2-3 lives, full rites, full offense and no malus. I saw how long it took you to set up Mathiaus (who does not parry)  to die (~8m). Imagine having to do that to someone...twice (and possibly a 3rd and 4th time). Yeah, that's a problem.
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Then the issue isn't the skill it's the ability to stack them and the lack of cooldown on them. Not to mention the Mathiaus fight didn't last that long. The second Morgoth fight probably did though (which I won). Mathiaus beat me both times, and worked through me fairly easily after popping bladesurge. I agree with you completely that they shouldn't have more lives than people without redemption and the likes are able to grant themselves. So just prevent them from stacking and put a cooldown on when they can be put back up so you can't pop redemption in a fight and immediately put it back up if you have enough devo. Simple fix.

  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    edited October 2014
    Delrayne said:
    Then the issue isn't the skill it's the ability to stack them and the lack of cooldown on them. Not to mention the Mathiaus fight didn't last that long. The second Morgoth fight probably did though (which I won). Mathiaus beat me both times, and worked through me fairly easily after popping bladesurge. I agree with you completely that they shouldn't have more lives than people without redemption and the likes are able to grant themselves. So just prevent them from stacking and put a cooldown on when they can be put back up so you can't pop redemption in a fight and immediately put it back up if you have enough devo. Simple fix.

    Celestine said:
    ANNOUNCE NEWS #2840
    Date: 9/26/2014 at 19:15
    From: Garryn
    To  : Everyone
    Subj: Various changes and fixes
    - Automatic death revival effects (starburst, combust, redemption, torc of the dead) are now on a shared 30 second cooldown; if any of these is triggered, no other will fire during the next 30 seconds
    - Redemption (Devotion) now costs 1500 devotion both to put up and to be triggered
    - The Hecate mark (Shamanism) now informs the caster what it will hit with, for easier use
    - Added missing room messages to Care (Fayth) and affliction healing of Bliss (Devotion)
    - The 'map' command should no longer interrupt most channels
    - Weaving (Sabotage) no longer reduces unblockable damage
    - Added reflection checks to Hunter attacks that were missing them
    - Removed the obsolete actinium effect from the formaldehyde and psilocybin lists

  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Thank you captain obvious. So you turtle for 30 seconds, something I imagine to be fairly simple for two of the tankiest classes in the game. I was thinking someplace along the lines of not being able to put up either starburst or redemption/etc...if one or the other was already up, and giving it a cooldown similar to bladesurge. At which  point the high cost margin would just be overkill since they won't be able to put it up before the next zerg rush. Just my thoughts.

  • CassiusCassius Member, Beta Testers Posts: 607 ✭✭✭

    Delrayne said:
    Thank you captain obvious. So you turtle for 30 seconds, something I imagine to be fairly simple for two of the tankiest classes in the game. I was thinking someplace along the lines of not being able to put up either starburst or redemption/etc...if one or the other was already up, and giving it a cooldown similar to bladesurge. At which  point the high cost margin would just be overkill since they won't be able to put it up before the next zerg rush. Just my thoughts.
    It's still a skill that is better than starburst, not a simple replacement.  As such, it should have a high opportunity cost.  If you want to just make it into starburst clone (and everything that goes along with that), then sure, a lower cost may be justified.
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    Of course it's better than starburst, that's why I suggest the longer cooldown time for it.

  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Or we could stop hmmhawing about an obviously powerful skill in a powerful skill set and classlead the bejeebus out of it next round.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
    CassiusMenoch
  • DelrayneDelrayne Member Posts: 457 ✭✭✭
    there is always that too.
    :P

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