Good point on the commodity ones - switching Transmute to Moradeim, Duplicate to Aryana, and Purification (renamed to Destruction) to Sukhder. I'll alter the flying cost. As for Aryana's Life, that's kind of the intent, although it could indeed get excessive. I'll add some restrictions.
Sarrius: sects now pick 3 options out of 7, and many effects got switched to user-only (although I may need to do the same with some of the healing/protective ones as well). Not as much choice as your proposed shift to the D&D domain-like system, but still a good amount, in my opinion.
My largest concern is that you basically ignored the comment about opportunity cost. Cults should not get all three top level rituals. They are just too powerful, and it renders decisionmaking non-existent. I hate that the most about this system: there is such a tiny amount of decisionmaking. Removing circle based ritual groups as a 'thing' is a fantastic step forward.
Some positive/less caustic concerns: why not shift quality of life buffs to a general QOL domain every cult gets, to make room for more interesting powers? I.e flight, waterwalking, etc.. call them cult orisons or something. These can draw from personal faith and not belief.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
I guess I am relying too much on the idea that interesting powers might make compelling decisionmaking. I basically believe that if you tune every top level power, cults will be making sacrifices for certain benefits. I.e, to get A, they should have to give up B and/or C.
Edit: also. For the cult's writers, can we implement a system for cults to get custom messages for each ritual approved? A wild hunt avatar and a fire avatar should look different (the here. The enter/exit. Etc.), for instance. A meteor makes no sense for some cults, by example.
Edit2: @Garryn : also for the hipster in all ritualists, what about 'Deconstruct' for Terror's commodity power?
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
As for Aryana's Life, that's kind of the intent, although it could indeed get excessive. I'll add some restrictions.
That's fine, if you're blowing 400-500% faith I could see it being powerful.
I would consider one / some of the following: Allow the damage to be mitigated somehow and reduce the life stolen to the post-mitigation damage. Allow shield and prismatic to block it. Shorten the duration from three minutes to a more defensible number like two.
I would make aura single target as well. Very few attacks bypass prismatic barrier, and the ones that do are largely possible to just heal through if healing does not strip the defense - so a group / person using aura is effectively unkillable until they choose not to be. Similarly, I would make the breach power capable of being targeted at a person to strip aura from them for a similar cost to putting it up.
I'm being honest when I say that I'm disappointed and frustrated that the system seems to be shaping up to be entirely focused on PK. I'd really like to offer you suggestions for "flavor" rituals, but as it is the non-combat aspects of the system are still so much of a mystery aside from the sect structure mechanics that I feel like I'm shooting in the dark. For example, maybe cults/sects should have the ability to add custom RP rituals via a submission system, so that a cult/sect leader can submit them once, have them approved, and then any sect member (with the proper position/rank, if needed) can run the ritual at the altar with said altar functioning a la the old Wytchen ritual room.
Toys for PKers aside, I have a more fundamental concern: what is the role or purpose of an entity in this system aside from its presence unlocking the combat buffs listed above and a more functional organization structure? The role of bestowing favours and getting/giving "buffs" has fallen to players. Creating the sect's structure has fallen to players. So what's the "angel" supposed to do besides twiddle their thumbs, given that they seem to have no actual powers? None of the entities my character has interacted with have given any indication that they are even marginally powerful - and we don't need entities around at all to generate faith/belief in the cult.
Given the fact that most entities have been playing their role as if they lack even a basic understanding of the world, I'd like to have a better understanding of just what it is they're supposed to do - because thus far players interacting with these entities have been more like pokemon trainers than believers. I feel like that's an important element of this system to share with the players.
Could you elaborate on the kind of RP opportunities that you are seeking? Are you looking for something like a command that will fire off a series of pre-submitted messages?
The RP should come with your entity in a more intimate setting. What kind of hard-coded function can Garryn give aside from pre-submitted messages? You made or joined a cult to reflect your day-to-day RP, what can mechanics give you here?
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
If anything, maybe an illusion ritual that can be done at the altar for assistance in, well, whatever rituals you want to invent.
I would assume that for purely RP rituals, the Entities would be able to make up their own cosmetic things.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
In my case, yes - my fairly generic suggestion is for something that allows sect members to submit ritual messages so that rituals that would be more difficult to pull off solely with emotes could be performed at the altar. That also has the side effect of rituals not disappearing when someone goes inactive or their computer's hard drive fries itself.
Yes, absolutely. This is the mechanical portion of the sect system, similar to the role that miracles filled for orders - but it's definitely not the sole focal point of sects, just like miracles weren't the "point" of orders - the ideology and entity-related RP is.
On a different topic, having thought about it a bit, I rather like Sarrius' specialisation idea - I think I'll make it so that after the sect has picked its three ritual groups, the first four rituals in each group will be available to all members who meet the requirements, but each member will only have access to one of the three rank 5 rituals. Picking (and later changing) the rank 5 ritual will be quite costly - details to be determined.
Could you elaborate on the kind of RP opportunities that you are seeking? Are you looking for something like a command that will fire off a series of pre-submitted messages?
The RP should come with your entity in a more intimate setting. What kind of hard-coded function can Garryn give aside from pre-submitted messages? You made or joined a cult to reflect your day-to-day RP, what can mechanics give you here?
In answer to the both of you - Cults when first revealed were RP driven, RP tools. This final revelation turns them into PK tools. RP will take a back seat now. I'm not against us having more feathers to our conflict bow, but I'm not entirely sure we need to have another set of abilities to scale and balance in the terms of shardfall and obelisk conflict. I feel that we are missing an opportunity to implement little skills and abilities that are quality of life, fun, simple and enjoyable.
Things like -
Speeding up harvesting time. Speeding up toxin preserving time. Speeding up learning/relearning -mostly learning. Cult specific racial bonuses/abilities (maybe too far reaching).
RP stuff like-
Unique ability per cult - would love to see this be able to be submitted by the cult leader as a unique timed instakill.. eg a reskinned behead that gives a generic message after each stage. Unique upgrades to the cult altar - For example, the Cult of the Wild Hunt could choose to take a trophy from a kill. Conquest could add a notch to a ritual item eg a blade. These might grant a small boon to the person who adds to the altar. Cult specific special emotes.
In the Revenants I had an altar that would kill you upon doing a specific emote with it and then your character would die with a unique deathsight message, this leading to a ritual being performed to pass the character into a state of permanent undeath. Entirely for the RP. How about things like that? Cult of the Flame could have something that makes people take on a fire aspect, Rashimir could take on a dream like quality.. etc etc.
Simple skills like -
Ability to perceive the health of a mob Ability to perceive the essence strength of a mob Ability to assess what areas are unbashed
... NECROMANTIC SKULL MESSENGERS OF DOOM
Are we going to see the return of Temples? Are we going to see Shrines and Shrine dominance over areas?
Could you elaborate on the kind of RP opportunities that you are seeking? Are you looking for something like a command that will fire off a series of pre-submitted messages?
I imagine, @Garryn.. that people would want the system to feel like it is actually better than what it replaced. We were promised something awesome to replace a system that, frankly, was working - besides the 'historical baggage' attached to each god as they change players (which I suspect is a portion of why you guys even bothered with this system). At first, the idea of fashioning our own ideologies was a fantastic concept that we embraced with open arms - finally, a way to define our character's beliefs as precise, workable religions, instead of relying on an overarching 'blanket' concept. However.. the current vision you are selling to us regarding the 'cult system' is not one that satisfies some players - in fact, it seems to really only please a minority who want more weapons to throw around in shardfalls. Even being an 'enthusiast' of that specific conflict system, I really don't want those. As I've stated before, all of the powers you are trying to sell to us are both of two things -
Dissonant with the rest of the cult system: This means that, to be honest, what you are offering us has zero actual attachment to the rest of the pieces of the system - except that you've sort of forced it to. You've forced a square peg in to a round hole, here. There is nothing, roleplay-wise or mechanically or even on paper in a logical form, that makes the 'cult ritual system' resonate with the rest of the presented cult system. You honestly could have had more luck selling these powers to us as Aspect benefits. We were expecting something a little more creative. I imagine that as time goes on, we can grow closer to a concept that obviates this complaint entirely.. but it still doesn't address the second, that being..
Incredibly imbalanced and unnecessary: I am likely going to be shouted down by a vocal minority here, but we don't need these. None of these powers are fair, none of them are necessary, and definitely none of them seem like they bring much to the game right now. Basically, we're being offered a bunch of new things to complain about, new things to write classleads for, and for what? Because you guys felt you had to attach something mechanically powerful to cults to incentivize them? Just leave them be as roleplay devices, not as things that will quickly devolve in to PK essentials on the 'Get Ready to Kill Dudes' check list. Lusternia tried to go down this route and they failed horribly. You should check it out some time - literally every system has a powerful mechanical benefit attached to it, because their design philosophy is incredibly schizophrenic. What this results in is a mess to balance for, and a combat environment that has zero redeeming qualities.
At least when Gods and Orders existed, we had a working infrastructure with active deities. Now, I haven't seen any of the entities in weeks - I saw Zarah once two weeks ago. I see Ienteres, who logs in, goes idle, and logs out. I saw a new entity - who, god bless, tried its hardest to RP an ignorant ball of light but very likely grew very bored of the entire process. I saw Mozlok for about twenty seconds a few days ago. Where is Zhiash? Omyedhi? What about the others? Their absence is probably very telling regarding player reception and (I'd imagine) volunteer reception - this system needs a lot of work. You've introduced a system that, honestly, seemed cool on paper but in execution has revealed how much work it is going to take to make it become something capable of fulfilling the potential you have in mind for it. In preparation for the release, you deleted a system that a great many players had enjoyed and cultivated for years - which, honestly, probably really soured a lot of people towards the cult system.
Make no mistakes - I know you cannot 'code for RP'. However, the system and support you are providing is being brushed aside to provide a few gimmicks, which is revealing the true motivation behind the cult system. In truth, instead of sharing that intent with us.. and hell, being forthcoming with details (I tried so hard to be patient with this part, but when a customer specifically asks where something is going, you should probably say something better than 'cool places').. you thrust this at us and hoped we were all expecting it. Essentially, you ushered us in to a cab and when we asked where the cab was going, you said 'Somewhere really awesome, just you wait!' - don't you see how that might not satisfy the person you may have just kidnapped? It's a ridiculous example, but it puts across just how I feel - nobody capable of voicing where we were going said anything of any substance, so we were left waiting for more details. Now that you wasted so much development time, a lot of our feedback is just as useful as dust in the wind.
On a different topic, having thought about it a bit, I rather like Sarrius' specialisation idea - I think I'll make it so that after the sect has picked its three ritual groups, the first four rituals in each group will be available to all members who meet the requirements, but each member will only have access to one of the three rank 5 rituals. Picking (and later changing) the rank 5 ritual will be quite costly - details to be determined.
Thank you for considering that point of feedback - it's genuinely one of my largest concerns. However, I'd like to point out the bolded part - to have entity-related RP, we'd probably need the entities to show up more. I'm sure they are busy with their lives and the holidays, so I can't fault them for prioritizing real life.. but I feel as if all of them have almost gone incredibly quiet for no actual reason. I can understand if none of the cult ideas currently approved interest them, but for all of the entities (and I counted quite a few..).. none of them find the current 11 cults appealing whatsoever?
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Speeding up harvesting time. Speeding up toxin preserving time. Speeding up learning/relearning -mostly learning.
Shard skills and/or artifacts already provide all of these, I'm not really sure if there's much place for more (note: I'm also referencing shard skills that nobody has researched yet).
RP stuff like-
Unique ability per cult - would love to see this be able to be submitted by the cult leader as a unique timed instakill.. eg a reskinned behead that gives a generic message after each stage. Unique upgrades to the cult altar - For example, the Cult of the Wild Hunt could choose to take a trophy from a kill. Conquest could add a notch to a ritual item eg a blade. These might grant a small boon to the person who adds to the altar. Cult specific special emotes.
Not too wild on unique insta-kills. The rest are things that can easily be handled by the entities on a case-by-case basis, much like they did with orders.
Are we going to see the return of Temples?
Yes.
Are we going to see Shrines and Shrine dominance over areas?
No shrines. There aren't any specific plans for a mechanics similar to order dominance, but something similar may appear in the future - we'll see.
The level of information supplied now, by the way, is exactly what I'd
have loved to see throughout the entire process. Thank you for being a
lot more forthcoming with this stage - it definitely needed it.
Considering my biggest concern for imbalance is being taken in to
consideration, I'm not going to vehemently resist the idea of cults
having powers. I imagine cult rituals as they are (in terms of the
generalized system) are here to stay. I could see a lot of these powers
being easily tweaked - Juran's suggestions are especially helpful.
However, would it be too much to assume that if we presented ideas to you for new categories of rituals - or new powers, even - that you would add them, @Garryn?
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Then I have a few quick questions - is it too late to lean my suggestions closer towards my initial input, being that we have a few more domains/ritual groups? For example: why not move Searing Aura to a 'Movement'-based ritual group. You can call it something more fancy, like 'Freedom' or 'Journeying'. I don't care. Here, you can stick Waterwalking (but you can put it in other domains, too!) if you don't make that a general ritual, Celerity, etc. Searing Aura would be the top of the group.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
The more skillsets you implement, the more of them you have to balance, and the more combinations of them you have to balance.
Frankly, what I'd like to see is a list of utility rituals that all cults get access to. Waterwalking and the like.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Frankly, what I'd like to see is a list of utility rituals that all cults get access to. Waterwalking and the like.
I suggested this a bit back, not sure if Garryn commented.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Do rituals have a flat belief cost? This cost amount is not mentioned anywhere, although there's a phrase in HELP RITUALS that "both cult faith and belief are necessary", and the favour ritual seems to cost 50,000 belief.
It takes both from personal and cult belief to perform any ritual, so far as I am seeing. I feel like that is wrong in some respects.
<div>Message #2062 Sent By: (imperian) Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
Both personal faith and sect belief are used equally, yes. While it may not be entirely obvious, this ensures that nobody can't spend more than what they contributed.
It also means that you can't, say, stockpile up 100% cult belief and then just burn that to keep yourself favored without hunting. Otherwise, Khepera's bashing could keep Khizan running the cult favour ritual forever
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I'd like to see Veneration return - give me something to do with my 100% faith that doesn't drain belief.
Maybe add a section of skills under the title Sacrifice. All drain 100% faith.
Idol - creates an Idol of your Entity, Idol dropped in an area provides health/mana regen to cult members. Cannot stack with Selfless. Selfless -give yourself with a malus to mana/health sip to give your target a bonus to theirs. Cannot stack with Idol. Veneration - 10% an additional of the belief it took to get there. Worship - for a bonus to all sacrifices at the Cult Altar for 1 minute. Matyr - Next time you die to a mobile, the faith you would lose is instead added to the pool. (add a CD or restriction to make this unabusable)
One problem I have with the system now is that there's only one place to sacrifice. Bashing in Demon's Pass? Got to walk all the way to the altar to offer. For my cult, that's in the Yhumara. So it's a fairly long ways away, and if you don't walk to it regularly, you risk losing all the corpses if you die and getting zero belief for your trouble.
It's hugely irritating as it is now. I paid 3 tokens for a personal altar just to avoid it, but that's not a real option for everybody.
Ideally, it should be possible to erect a handful of other sacrificial locations for a cult. They wouldn't be altars. They wouldn't allow altar rituals, or whatnot, but they'd make it so that you don't need to walk across the entire world every time you want to offer.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I'm looking over the list again now that I have some quiet time to myself and I've added and removed some ideas and thought I'd provide my reasoning.
HEALING RITUALS - I like most of these. Grace intrigues me because it reminds me of Naga Siren's ultimate ability in DotA where she just puts everyone to sleep for like, six seconds and allows people to heal up, reposition, et cetera. A 30 second window to heal, repair, escape, make a new strategy is huge. The others seem legit. The only one I'd change is the bloodsworn one. I think it'll scale entirely too well with artifacted individuals and just don't see the need for it. Here's my replacement suggestion for it:
*Mirage - This defense provides each cult member with eight illusions that last for 30 seconds or until the target exits the room. 40% faith.
This could be cast twice by someone in a fight at 40%. It gives a far smaller breather than the grace bomb but could be used to turn momentum. Fits in better, I think.
PILLARS - Fine. I like these. A great set of rituals and I would change nothing.
FAVOURS - I don't think they're bad, but I also don't really see the use of a couple of them. I'd at the very least drop the celerity one. No one will ever use that for anything, I don't think. My replacement idea:
*Fortune - The blessing of fortune increases gold drops by 15% for those hunting.
Like the others, this would last two hours and give something to the PvE community looking to pick up a set. This set of rituals thus far looks like it's better off for PvE anyhow. In real combat, stealth offers little advantage. Drain free alertness? It's just not big enough for me to pick this up, but maybe if you're a Therian of the world looking to not get jumped while hunting. Benevolence is cool, but I'm not taking a set just for a +1 to all stats for two hours. Protection favour is one that I would frankly use to block shadow damage so I could hunt demons. Yes, you could go for the spread resistance, but +5% cutting/blunt? It just doesn't mean enough. Again, this is a PvE utility set to me. Fortune would just reflect that more handily. Hunting? Use fortune. Get XP, offer corpses, make some extra gold.
OFFENSIVE RITUALS - I like all of these except explosion. I love the concept behind explosion but I think it's just too powerful, and too difficult to pull off if it has a 3 second cast time. Imagine a world where I can use explosion and then Juran and I just track over and becoming stomping some priority target. I mean, it's a high faith cost, but again. If it somehow doesn't get interrupted, it still seems excessive. My suggestion for the top tier skill would be somewhat similar in concept, but work differently.
*Seismic Toss - No cast time, 100% faith, target is thrown to a random location in the world. Place an ICD of five minutes so it can't just be chained on a high priority target. I would also recommend a five second travel time, something like, '<name> has thrown you. You soar through the sky. You begin to descend. You have landed here, take some damage unless you have levitation up.' It's a circumstantial tool that's not going to get cancelled all day. And yes, the name is a Pokemon reference.
SUKHDER RITUALS - I like a lot of these. I'm not going to touch the transmute stuff because I don't honestly care about it. I think it's a weird mechanic. The waterwalking thing should go somewhere else. I like the idea of a movement blessing set. Decompose is great, searing aura is the bees knees, Sukhder's Minion is interesting, I'd have to see specific numbers and what it does. In b4 old possession 3.0. In lieu of waterwalking, I'd do something like:
*Heartstopper Aura - Only one could be active per room, but the aura, once activated would last for three minutes. All non-cult members would suffer 1% of their total health and mana per second. Have it cost 40%. This could be huge, but if someone pops it they wouldn't be getting access to bigger miracles. MORADEIM RITUALS - Again, I'd take out burrowing, put it somewhere else if you want to keep it. Magick has access to better flight through Bards. Icestorm is great. Meteor is questionable. I feel like Magick's lockdown potential/retardation make it very difficult to interrupt if done right, but that's up to you. I'd replace flying and burrowing with:
*Something about being better than other fog here - This ritual would shroud room exits. Have it cost about 30%. Make it last ten minutes. It'd be a great tactic to use in order to separate people and it isn't a ritual they already have!
*Flux Aura - This is probably a bad idea, but thematically I think it's great. This aura would constantly switch the room type of the room it was cast in. Envision an effect that lasted one minute and constantly switched the room from being on fire, underwater, in the air, indoors or underground. Constant fire damage, but suddenly you're choking underwater, et cetera. It would add an incredible degree of chaos to a fight. Something like 40% on this one as well.
I'll post stuff on AM later. Again, I'm just spitballing here.
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
*Mirage - This defense provides each cult member with eight illusions that last for 30 seconds or until the target exits the room. 40% faith.
What is the intended purpose for this one? Or are you referring to reflections, rather than illusions?
FAVOURS - I don't think they're bad, but I also don't really see the use of a couple of them. I'd at the very least drop the celerity one. No one will ever use that for anything, I don't think. My replacement idea:
*Fortune - The blessing of fortune increases gold drops by 15% for those hunting.
I like this. Swapped!
*Seismic Toss - No cast time, 100% faith, target is thrown to a random location in the world. Place an ICD of five minutes so it can't just be chained on a high priority target. I would also recommend a five second travel time, something like, '<name> has thrown you. You soar through the sky. You begin to descend. You have landed here, take some damage unless you have levitation up.' It's a circumstantial tool that's not going to get cancelled all day. And yes, the name is a Pokemon reference.
I think I like this.
*Heartstopper Aura - Only one could be active per room, but the aura, once activated would last for three minutes. All non-cult members would suffer 1% of their total health and mana per second. Have it cost 40%. This could be huge, but if someone pops it they wouldn't be getting access to bigger miracles.
I'm fine with adding waterwalking, flying and burrowing to their own group, assuming I (or someone) come up with two more to flesh out the group. As for this one, I like it, feels a bit too similar to Aryana's Life though.
*Something about being better than other fog here - This ritual would shroud room exits. Have it cost about 30%. Make it last ten minutes. It'd be a great tactic to use in order to separate people and it isn't a ritual they already have!
Hrm, we already have this in Pioneering.
*Flux Aura - This is probably a bad idea, but thematically I think it's great. This aura would constantly switch the room type of the room it was cast in. Envision an effect that lasted one minute and constantly switched the room from being on fire, underwater, in the air, indoors or underground. Constant fire damage, but suddenly you're choking underwater, et cetera. It would add an incredible degree of chaos to a fight. Something like 40% on this one as well.
Heh, this sounds cool, but I'm not sure if it's something that would ever get used. Thoughts?
Yah, Mirage should be reflections, sorry. It's basically the cheap grace bomb option for when you think your team needs a shorter breather and you don't want to tap out all your faith, or you simply don't have enough faith to grace bomb.
Flux aura would have some interesting uses. Each room change would force people to adapt. For the inferno room, someone has to out the fire or else everyone takes a good amount of fire damage. Underwater you have to eat pear, some pipes are no longer lit, certain skills are unavailable if memory serves. Flying would be hilarious because people without flying mounts, a ring of flying, the flying song, et cetera would be dropping. Underground would stop tracking, the star tarot. It's basically an odd battle toggle that would be thrown in massive teamfights to force opponents to react. That's how I envisioned it. Like I said, I might just be off my rocker.
But yah, I'll try and throws more ideas out. I figure, worst case scenario you can use you a couple of them.
‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
1. HEALING/PROTECTIVE RITUALS * Heal - cures all health/mana and afflictions on user. 30% faith. * Aura - An improved prismatic defence on user that only drops when shield would (on aggro/move). 30% faith. * Joining - A more powerful bloodsworn. Split damage between the two, afflictions are received by both, curing an affliction cures it for both, health curing also splits between the two, lasts for 30 minutes or until cancelled. 80% faith. * Sanctuary - Prevent all forms of travel into the room. Leaving can still be done freely. Lasts for a limited time. 55% faith. * Grace - gives temporary grace for 30 seconds. 100% faith.
2. PILLAR RITUALS - creation of pillars with various effects, can have multiple in room, pillars last about 10 minutes. This is the "jack of all trades" option. Each pillar costs 40% faith. * Protection Pillar - damage targetted at anyone in the room reduced by 15% * Travel Pillar - cult members can travel to the pillar from anywhere * Pestilence Pillar - everyone in the room except owner hit by periodic afflictions * Destruction Pillar - damage initiated by anyone in the room increased by 15% * Holding Pillar - creates a pillar in the room that prevents all forms of movement from the room except unblockable ones (tumble and similar)
3. FAVOURS - this basically splits the existing divine favours into several ones, removes some things, and adds some extras. A player can have more of these, and can bestow them upon others (high faith cost to balance it out). All of these last 2 hours of online time. * Fortune Favour - +15% gold, 20% faith * Stealth Favour - enter/leave messages do not show the direction in which the affected player left, 40% faith * Benevolence Favour - +1 to stats. 60% faith * Alertness Favour - alertness with no drain, 60% faith * Protection Favour - 10% damage resist to all damage types. 80% faith
4. OFFENSIVE RITUALS * Summoning - summon another player to the cult altar. Short delay with messages, movement, monoliths and similar block it. 15% faith (taken even if it fails). * Breach - remove all obstacles in a direction, including the Sanctuary effect. 30% faith. * Faithbane - for next 30 minutes, desecration attempts done by the user are three times as as effective, without cost any more faith. 40% faith. (numbers here are chosen so that desecrating with faithbane is more cost-effective, as long as you don't get interrupted much during those 30 minutes) * Avatar - +3 to all stats, lasts 3 minutes, 75% faith * Removal - a powerful ritual that sends the chosen target to a random room anywhere in the world. Target is flying in some intermittent room for 5 seconds first. 100% faith
5. MOBILITY RITUALS * Altartravel - travel to the altar after a 3-second channel, then get moved back to the original location after 15 seconds, 15% faith (alternative to altarhome, mostly intended to sacrifice and get back again) * Waterwalking - for 20 minutes, user gains waterwalking, 35% faith * Burrowing - user gets the ability to burrow, lasts 10 minutes, 35% faith * Freedom - user gets the ability to fly, lasts 10 minutes, 40% faith * Bull's Rush - user ignores effects like gravehands/piety/block/etc, lasts 10 minutes. 60% faith.
6. SUKHDER RITUALS * Destruction - convert an item into commodities, faith costs depends on type, specifics and applicable items to be determined * Drain - remove water in the room (same as Devotion Parting), 40% faith * Decompose - A 15% damage malus to everyone in the room, lasts 5 minutes, 60% faith * Sukhder's Minion - summon a powerful mobile loyal to the user, disappears after 10 minutes if not killed before then, 80% faith * Searing Aura - user becomes immune to all entanglements, lasts 5 minutes, 100% faith
7. MORADEIM RITUALS * Transmute - Convert some amount of commodities into random other commodities, faith cost depends on amount * Reflection - Create 10 reflections of the user, 30% faith * Flux - Every 6 seconds, random players in the room are flung into the air, 40% faith * Icestorm - invoke a storm of ice that blocks all locating skills targetted at people in the room and causes significant damage to anyone who tries to enter or leave (no periodic damage to people inside), lasts several minutes. 80% faith * Meteor - a large ball of fire hits the current outdoors room after 6 seconds, causing 80% fire damage to anyone who remains there, 100% faith
8. ARYANA RITUALS * Duplicate - duplicate a stack of riftable items, faith costs depends on type/amount, some (moonwort) are excluded * Aryana's Curse - transfer the afflictions on user to all other players in the room, 60% faith * Aryana's Protection - Periodic shield defence on user, ticks every 10s, lasts 5 minutes. 80% faith * Aryana's Life - Player drains 10% health from every other individual in the room and adds that to his own health, lasts three minutes, ticks every 6 seconds, 80% faith * Avalanche - For 5 minutes, the room becomes completely impassable and unable to be entered by any means. Everyone inside gets pushed out. Can still be bypassed with long-range travel. 100% faith
These rituals are mutually exclusive - only one can be in effect at once on any individual: Join, Avatar, Searing Aura, Boost of Life
Comments
Sarrius: sects now pick 3 options out of 7, and many effects got switched to user-only (although I may need to do the same with some of the healing/protective ones as well). Not as much choice as your proposed shift to the D&D domain-like system, but still a good amount, in my opinion.
Some positive/less caustic concerns: why not shift quality of life buffs to a general QOL domain every cult gets, to make room for more interesting powers? I.e flight, waterwalking, etc.. call them cult orisons or something. These can draw from personal faith and not belief.
Edit: also. For the cult's writers, can we implement a system for cults to get custom messages for each ritual approved? A wild hunt avatar and a fire avatar should look different (the here. The enter/exit. Etc.), for instance. A meteor makes no sense for some cults, by example.
Edit2: @Garryn : also for the hipster in all ritualists, what about 'Deconstruct' for Terror's commodity power?
That's fine, if you're blowing 400-500% faith I could see it being powerful.
I would consider one / some of the following: Allow the damage to be mitigated somehow and reduce the life stolen to the post-mitigation damage. Allow shield and prismatic to block it. Shorten the duration from three minutes to a more defensible number like two.
Toys for PKers aside, I have a more fundamental concern: what is the role or purpose of an entity in this system aside from its presence unlocking the combat buffs listed above and a more functional organization structure? The role of bestowing favours and getting/giving "buffs" has fallen to players. Creating the sect's structure has fallen to players. So what's the "angel" supposed to do besides twiddle their thumbs, given that they seem to have no actual powers? None of the entities my character has interacted with have given any indication that they are even marginally powerful - and we don't need entities around at all to generate faith/belief in the cult.
Given the fact that most entities have been playing their role as if they lack even a basic understanding of the world, I'd like to have a better understanding of just what it is they're supposed to do - because thus far players interacting with these entities have been more like pokemon trainers than believers. I feel like that's an important element of this system to share with the players.
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
If anything, maybe an illusion ritual that can be done at the altar for assistance in, well, whatever rituals you want to invent.
I would assume that for purely RP rituals, the Entities would be able to make up their own cosmetic things.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
On a different topic, having thought about it a bit, I rather like Sarrius' specialisation idea - I think I'll make it so that after the sect has picked its three ritual groups, the first four rituals in each group will be available to all members who meet the requirements, but each member will only have access to one of the three rank 5 rituals. Picking (and later changing) the rank 5 ritual will be quite costly - details to be determined.
In answer to the both of you - Cults when first revealed were RP driven, RP tools. This final revelation turns them into PK tools. RP will take a back seat now. I'm not against us having more feathers to our conflict bow, but I'm not entirely sure we need to have another set of abilities to scale and balance in the terms of shardfall and obelisk conflict. I feel that we are missing an opportunity to implement little skills and abilities that are quality of life, fun, simple and enjoyable.
Things like -
Speeding up harvesting time.
Speeding up toxin preserving time.
Speeding up learning/relearning -mostly learning.
Cult specific racial bonuses/abilities (maybe too far reaching).
RP stuff like-
Unique ability per cult - would love to see this be able to be submitted by the cult leader as a unique timed instakill.. eg a reskinned behead that gives a generic message after each stage.
Unique upgrades to the cult altar - For example, the Cult of the Wild Hunt could choose to take a trophy from a kill. Conquest could add a notch to a ritual item eg a blade. These might grant a small boon to the person who adds to the altar.
Cult specific special emotes.
In the Revenants I had an altar that would kill you upon doing a specific emote with it and then your character would die with a unique deathsight message, this leading to a ritual being performed to pass the character into a state of permanent undeath. Entirely for the RP. How about things like that? Cult of the Flame could have something that makes people take on a fire aspect, Rashimir could take on a dream like quality.. etc etc.
Simple skills like -
Ability to perceive the health of a mob
Ability to perceive the essence strength of a mob
Ability to assess what areas are unbashed
...
NECROMANTIC SKULL MESSENGERS OF DOOM
Are we going to see the return of Temples?
Are we going to see Shrines and Shrine dominance over areas?
At least when Gods and Orders existed, we had a working infrastructure with active deities. Now, I haven't seen any of the entities in weeks - I saw Zarah once two weeks ago. I see Ienteres, who logs in, goes idle, and logs out. I saw a new entity - who, god bless, tried its hardest to RP an ignorant ball of light but very likely grew very bored of the entire process. I saw Mozlok for about twenty seconds a few days ago. Where is Zhiash? Omyedhi? What about the others? Their absence is probably very telling regarding player reception and (I'd imagine) volunteer reception - this system needs a lot of work. You've introduced a system that, honestly, seemed cool on paper but in execution has revealed how much work it is going to take to make it become something capable of fulfilling the potential you have in mind for it. In preparation for the release, you deleted a system that a great many players had enjoyed and cultivated for years - which, honestly, probably really soured a lot of people towards the cult system.
Make no mistakes - I know you cannot 'code for RP'. However, the system and support you are providing is being brushed aside to provide a few gimmicks, which is revealing the true motivation behind the cult system. In truth, instead of sharing that intent with us.. and hell, being forthcoming with details (I tried so hard to be patient with this part, but when a customer specifically asks where something is going, you should probably say something better than 'cool places').. you thrust this at us and hoped we were all expecting it. Essentially, you ushered us in to a cab and when we asked where the cab was going, you said 'Somewhere really awesome, just you wait!' - don't you see how that might not satisfy the person you may have just kidnapped? It's a ridiculous example, but it puts across just how I feel - nobody capable of voicing where we were going said anything of any substance, so we were left waiting for more details. Now that you wasted so much development time, a lot of our feedback is just as useful as dust in the wind.
Thank you for considering that point of feedback - it's genuinely one of my largest concerns. However, I'd like to point out the bolded part - to have entity-related RP, we'd probably need the entities to show up more. I'm sure they are busy with their lives and the holidays, so I can't fault them for prioritizing real life.. but I feel as if all of them have almost gone incredibly quiet for no actual reason. I can understand if none of the cult ideas currently approved interest them, but for all of the entities (and I counted quite a few..).. none of them find the current 11 cults appealing whatsoever?Yes. No shrines. There aren't any specific plans for a mechanics similar to order dominance, but something similar may appear in the future - we'll see.
However, would it be too much to assume that if we presented ideas to you for new categories of rituals - or new powers, even - that you would add them, @Garryn?
The more skillsets you implement, the more of them you have to balance, and the more combinations of them you have to balance.
Frankly, what I'd like to see is a list of utility rituals that all cults get access to. Waterwalking and the like.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
I suggested this a bit back, not sure if Garryn commented.
It also means that you can't, say, stockpile up 100% cult belief and then just burn that to keep yourself favored without hunting. Otherwise, Khepera's bashing could keep Khizan running the cult favour ritual forever
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Maybe add a section of skills under the title Sacrifice. All drain 100% faith.
Idol - creates an Idol of your Entity, Idol dropped in an area provides health/mana regen to cult members. Cannot stack with Selfless.
Selfless -give yourself with a malus to mana/health sip to give your target a bonus to theirs. Cannot stack with Idol.
Veneration - 10% an additional of the belief it took to get there.
Worship - for a bonus to all sacrifices at the Cult Altar for 1 minute.
Matyr - Next time you die to a mobile, the faith you would lose is instead added to the pool. (add a CD or restriction to make this unabusable)
One problem I have with the system now is that there's only one place to sacrifice. Bashing in Demon's Pass? Got to walk all the way to the altar to offer. For my cult, that's in the Yhumara. So it's a fairly long ways away, and if you don't walk to it regularly, you risk losing all the corpses if you die and getting zero belief for your trouble.
It's hugely irritating as it is now. I paid 3 tokens for a personal altar just to avoid it, but that's not a real option for everybody.
Ideally, it should be possible to erect a handful of other sacrificial locations for a cult. They wouldn't be altars. They wouldn't allow altar rituals, or whatnot, but they'd make it so that you don't need to walk across the entire world every time you want to offer.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
HEALING RITUALS - I like most of these. Grace intrigues me because it reminds me of Naga Siren's ultimate ability in DotA where she just puts everyone to sleep for like, six seconds and allows people to heal up, reposition, et cetera. A 30 second window to heal, repair, escape, make a new strategy is huge. The others seem legit. The only one I'd change is the bloodsworn one. I think it'll scale entirely too well with artifacted individuals and just don't see the need for it. Here's my replacement suggestion for it:
*Mirage - This defense provides each cult member with eight illusions that last for 30 seconds or until the target exits the room. 40% faith.
This could be cast twice by someone in a fight at 40%. It gives a far smaller breather than the grace bomb but could be used to turn momentum. Fits in better, I think.
PILLARS - Fine. I like these. A great set of rituals and I would change nothing.
FAVOURS - I don't think they're bad, but I also don't really see the use of a couple of them. I'd at the very least drop the celerity one. No one will ever use that for anything, I don't think. My replacement idea:
*Fortune - The blessing of fortune increases gold drops by 15% for those hunting.
Like the others, this would last two hours and give something to the PvE community looking to pick up a set. This set of rituals thus far looks like it's better off for PvE anyhow. In real combat, stealth offers little advantage. Drain free alertness? It's just not big enough for me to pick this up, but maybe if you're a Therian of the world looking to not get jumped while hunting. Benevolence is cool, but I'm not taking a set just for a +1 to all stats for two hours. Protection favour is one that I would frankly use to block shadow damage so I could hunt demons. Yes, you could go for the spread resistance, but +5% cutting/blunt? It just doesn't mean enough. Again, this is a PvE utility set to me. Fortune would just reflect that more handily. Hunting? Use fortune. Get XP, offer corpses, make some extra gold.
OFFENSIVE RITUALS - I like all of these except explosion. I love the concept behind explosion but I think it's just too powerful, and too difficult to pull off if it has a 3 second cast time. Imagine a world where I can use explosion and then Juran and I just track over and becoming stomping some priority target. I mean, it's a high faith cost, but again. If it somehow doesn't get interrupted, it still seems excessive. My suggestion for the top tier skill would be somewhat similar in concept, but work differently.
*Seismic Toss - No cast time, 100% faith, target is thrown to a random location in the world. Place an ICD of five minutes so it can't just be chained on a high priority target. I would also recommend a five second travel time, something like, '<name> has thrown you. You soar through the sky. You begin to descend. You have landed here, take some damage unless you have levitation up.' It's a circumstantial tool that's not going to get cancelled all day. And yes, the name is a Pokemon reference.
SUKHDER RITUALS - I like a lot of these. I'm not going to touch the transmute stuff because I don't honestly care about it. I think it's a weird mechanic. The waterwalking thing should go somewhere else. I like the idea of a movement blessing set. Decompose is great, searing aura is the bees knees, Sukhder's Minion is interesting, I'd have to see specific numbers and what it does. In b4 old possession 3.0. In lieu of waterwalking, I'd do something like:
*Heartstopper Aura - Only one could be active per room, but the aura, once activated would last for three minutes. All non-cult members would suffer 1% of their total health and mana per second. Have it cost 40%. This could be huge, but if someone pops it they wouldn't be getting access to bigger miracles.
MORADEIM RITUALS - Again, I'd take out burrowing, put it somewhere else if you want to keep it. Magick has access to better flight through Bards. Icestorm is great. Meteor is questionable. I feel like Magick's lockdown potential/retardation make it very difficult to interrupt if done right, but that's up to you. I'd replace flying and burrowing with:
*Something about being better than other fog here - This ritual would shroud room exits. Have it cost about 30%. Make it last ten minutes. It'd be a great tactic to use in order to separate people and it isn't a ritual they already have!
*Flux Aura - This is probably a bad idea, but thematically I think it's great. This aura would constantly switch the room type of the room it was cast in. Envision an effect that lasted one minute and constantly switched the room from being on fire, underwater, in the air, indoors or underground. Constant fire damage, but suddenly you're choking underwater, et cetera. It would add an incredible degree of chaos to a fight. Something like 40% on this one as well.
I'll post stuff on AM later. Again, I'm just spitballing here.
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
I like this. Swapped!
I think I like this.
Heh, this sounds cool, but I'm not sure if it's something that would ever get used. Thoughts?
Flux aura would have some interesting uses. Each room change would force people to adapt. For the inferno room, someone has to out the fire or else everyone takes a good amount of fire damage. Underwater you have to eat pear, some pipes are no longer lit, certain skills are unavailable if memory serves. Flying would be hilarious because people without flying mounts, a ring of flying, the flying song, et cetera would be dropping. Underground would stop tracking, the star tarot. It's basically an odd battle toggle that would be thrown in massive teamfights to force opponents to react. That's how I envisioned it. Like I said, I might just be off my rocker.
But yah, I'll try and throws more ideas out. I figure, worst case scenario you can use you a couple of them.
‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
1. HEALING/PROTECTIVE RITUALS
* Heal - cures all health/mana and afflictions on user. 30% faith.
* Aura - An improved prismatic defence on user that only drops when shield would (on aggro/move). 30% faith.
* Joining - A more powerful bloodsworn. Split damage between the two, afflictions are received by both, curing an affliction cures it for both, health curing also splits between the two, lasts for 30 minutes or until cancelled. 80% faith.
* Sanctuary - Prevent all forms of travel into the room. Leaving can still be done freely. Lasts for a limited time. 55% faith.
* Grace - gives temporary grace for 30 seconds. 100% faith.
2. PILLAR RITUALS - creation of pillars with various effects, can have multiple in room, pillars last about 10 minutes. This is the "jack of all trades" option. Each pillar costs 40% faith.
* Protection Pillar - damage targetted at anyone in the room reduced by 15%
* Travel Pillar - cult members can travel to the pillar from anywhere
* Pestilence Pillar - everyone in the room except owner hit by periodic afflictions
* Destruction Pillar - damage initiated by anyone in the room increased by 15%
* Holding Pillar - creates a pillar in the room that prevents all forms of movement from the room except unblockable ones (tumble and similar)
3. FAVOURS
- this basically splits the existing divine favours into several ones, removes some things, and adds some extras. A player can have more of these, and can bestow them upon others (high faith cost to balance it out). All of these last 2 hours of online time.
* Fortune Favour - +15% gold, 20% faith
* Stealth Favour - enter/leave messages do not show the direction in which the affected player left, 40% faith
* Benevolence Favour - +1 to stats. 60% faith
* Alertness Favour - alertness with no drain, 60% faith
* Protection Favour - 10% damage resist to all damage types. 80% faith
4. OFFENSIVE RITUALS
* Summoning - summon another player to the cult altar. Short delay with messages, movement, monoliths and similar block it. 15% faith (taken even if it fails).
* Breach - remove all obstacles in a direction, including the Sanctuary effect. 30% faith.
* Faithbane - for next 30 minutes, desecration attempts done by the user are three times as as effective, without cost any more faith. 40% faith. (numbers here are chosen so that desecrating with faithbane is more cost-effective, as long as you don't get interrupted much during those 30 minutes)
* Avatar - +3 to all stats, lasts 3 minutes, 75% faith
* Removal - a powerful ritual that sends the chosen target to a random room anywhere in the world. Target is flying in some intermittent room for 5 seconds first. 100% faith
5. MOBILITY RITUALS
* Altartravel - travel to the altar after a 3-second channel, then get moved back to the original location after 15 seconds, 15% faith (alternative to altarhome, mostly intended to sacrifice and get back again)
* Waterwalking - for 20 minutes, user gains waterwalking, 35% faith
* Burrowing - user gets the ability to burrow, lasts 10 minutes, 35% faith
* Freedom - user gets the ability to fly, lasts 10 minutes, 40% faith
* Bull's Rush - user ignores effects like gravehands/piety/block/etc, lasts 10 minutes. 60% faith.
6. SUKHDER RITUALS
* Destruction - convert an item into commodities, faith costs depends on type, specifics and applicable items to be determined
* Drain - remove water in the room (same as Devotion Parting), 40% faith
* Decompose - A 15% damage malus to everyone in the room, lasts 5 minutes, 60% faith
* Sukhder's Minion - summon a powerful mobile loyal to the user, disappears after 10 minutes if not killed before then, 80% faith
* Searing Aura - user becomes immune to all entanglements, lasts 5 minutes, 100% faith
7. MORADEIM RITUALS
* Transmute - Convert some amount of commodities into random other commodities, faith cost depends on amount
* Reflection - Create 10 reflections of the user, 30% faith
* Flux - Every 6 seconds, random players in the room are flung into the air, 40% faith
* Icestorm - invoke a storm of ice that blocks all locating skills targetted at people in the room and causes significant damage to anyone who tries to enter or leave (no periodic damage to people inside), lasts several minutes. 80% faith
* Meteor - a large ball of fire hits the current outdoors room after 6 seconds, causing 80% fire damage to anyone who remains there, 100% faith
8. ARYANA RITUALS
* Duplicate - duplicate a stack of riftable items, faith costs depends on type/amount, some (moonwort) are excluded
* Aryana's Curse - transfer the afflictions on user to all other players in the room, 60% faith
* Aryana's Protection - Periodic shield defence on user, ticks every 10s, lasts 5 minutes. 80% faith
* Aryana's Life - Player drains 10% health from every other individual in the room and adds that to his own health, lasts three minutes, ticks every 6 seconds, 80% faith
* Avalanche - For 5 minutes, the room becomes completely impassable and unable to be entered by any means. Everyone inside gets pushed out. Can still be bypassed with long-range travel. 100% faith
These rituals are mutually exclusive - only one can be in effect at once on any individual: Join, Avatar, Searing Aura, Boost of Life