June Promotion (Artifact Fragments)

Khizan

I'll be frank here. The artifact fragment promotion is awful, and there's no way to save it. I have absolutely zero interest in it because it's so heavily rigged against me. 

Let's use this market entry for an example:
170280 A fragment of a steelweave surcoat 100 cr

The surcoat is an amazing artifact. It's at the top of every decent list of "What artifacts should I get?". It is so good that when the price was raised from 500cr to 750cr, the world's response was "Yeah, that was pretty underpriced". So, for this, the price seems somewhat reasonable. Five pieces at 100 credits each is a surcoat for 500 credits; this is 66% of the going rate on a surcoat.  This sounds pretty awesome. Hell, if you can get the pieces for that price, it is pretty awesome, no ifs about it.

The problem is, however, that it's only a good price if I get 5 surcoat pieces. Five pieces, I have an awesome artifact for a large discount. Four pieces? I've got 60 credits worth of useless crap. If I buy that piece now, I am assuming a huge risk because that piece is worthless to me without the other 4. I'm basically betting 85 credits on my being able to find either another four pieces or some other sucker willing to assume the risk on my behalf. This is a pretty crappy bet, what with the way fragments are generated and especially with the lackluster interest in this promo. 

This is basically a 15% credit sale to me, and so I'm not interested; I've got a credit stockpile I already don't know how to spend, which is another problem. The high rollers who could be counted on to buy fragments and such from people during the cosmetic item promotion have no need to buy most of the things being offered; they already have them, and so the market for these fragments is a lot less liquid. Honestly, this really seems like you had a huge amount of unexpected success out of the cosmetic artifact promotion and that you're trying to replicate that success now without understanding why it was successful.

What you are actually doing is killing the goose that lays your golden eggs by trying to whip more eggs out of it without letting it rest. Give it a goddamned break already. Give us some more "If you log in and do this quest 25 times in a month, you get an awesome trinket" type promotions and stop trying to flog more credit purchases out of us every freaking month. The playerbase will be happier and more receptive when you run another fragment style promotion in September or something and you'll earn some good will by running a promotion that's not just BUY BUY BUY!!.

Also, sell quicksilver armor as a regular artifact, goddamnit. It would make a mint and people would actually be happy with you, instead of being pissed off over yet another promotion that forces participants to buy in via credit packages.

Iniar

I buy quicksilver armour. Promise.

Ahkan

@Khizan knocked this out of the park. Bullseye. Nailed it.

Call me spiteful, but on the heels of your worst and most greedy promotion ever, you promised to do things to address all of our most pressing issues. Without any progress made on that front, you turn around and throw another petty, money grubbing promotion in my face without fulfilling your part of the bargain.

How much time that could have been spent on story line, role play, shrine systems, or big bads was wasted on this promotion? My bet is too much, considering how little coding effort you have available to put into this game.

And this is why I've cancelled my membership and will likely not invest anymore in your game for the foreseeable future.

Wysrias

Khizan nailed pretty much every point - this promotion requires a large number of people to buy in to be successful, because of the sheer number of items you can get fragments for (and compounding rarity on top of that - does anyone even HAVE a phoenix wings fragment?). At 100 credits a pop with no other bonus, you're going to be hard pressed to convince long-time veterans to drop additional money for credits that they already have way too many of.

We're also still feeling burned from two months of promotions with staggered releases - there's no realistic guarantee in our minds that the price or items offered won't suddenly change halfway through the month, which makes an expensive promotion like this even more difficult to justify.

Bathan

Purely speculation here, but I'd imagine a promotion like this is, mechanically, very easy to throw together. It's something you can assign to someone who doesn't need to be working on more integral processes like say, everything @Jeremy mentioned in his explanation a couple of threads ago. While I also think this promotion is beyond terrible, I don't think it's presence is somehow a sign that the other stuff is not being worked on.

We really just need a couple months of (as promotions go) log in, get a lesson or two, maybe an XP buff, whatever. We've had a consistent string of promotions that just feel exceedingly cash grabby. Moreover, while the mercenary thing looks cool, Imperian just continues to feel soulless. I feel like if that got addressed people would be more receptive to constant hardcore $$$ promotions. 

Jeremy Saunders

We will make some adjustment to this today based on your comments here. 

Ahkan

@Bathan
While I also think this promotion is beyond terrible, I don't think it's presence is somehow a sign that the other stuff is not being worked on.

I apologize if my post came across this way, it was not my intention. Last month we had a pretty awful promotion that was a blatant "Give me all ur money" and punished people for investing early. There was an exchange of ideas between the customers and the administration. They posted a hollow shell of an outline and promised to do better. They didn't really deliver (though I'm sure the argument will be they had no time). Now it's June. Despite the hollow pleas to the contrary, no one learned their lessons from last month. June is as cash grabby and is trying to drive us to buy BUY BUY! We get annoyed. The response is to do what they should have done on June first BEFORE the promotion and post another hollow outline. I have a hard time sinking my teeth into a reactionary "I swear we're doing work" post.  It seems more like a placating maneuver than an actually attempt at progress.

 The problem that I see and I wanted to address in my post is that why should I invest in your game? Imperian has 3 coders. 2/3 of them are often assigned to projects NOT Imperian. Why, if all the games are part of the company, is Imperian footing the bill and the workload for Lusternia, Aetolia, Midkemia and Achaea? The remaining coder, despite his attempts to the contrary, is not actually a coder. I only play Imperian. I would like to see some sort of development in Imperian. I see that Imperian is an empty shell of an rpg that functions as a soulless pvp sandbox. In my tenure in Imperian, I've seen us blow through at least three coders who were badass (Bayron, Vashir, Eusto) and I wonder where they went. Based on what I've seen so far, we've got a good coder in Eoghan. I imagine he won't be paid to develop the game, but we'll make a 'pretty' web client for a black/white/green text game to exist in? Why should I invest in a game where development is development is constantly side-lined for IRE wide alterations that will generate more revenue in other games because they're more developed? Do you see the problem here?

Mathiaus

Edit: Recent updates. Disregard.

Iniar

Ahkan said:

The problem that I see and I wanted to address in my post is that why should I invest in your game? Imperian has 3 coders. 2/3 of them are often assigned to projects NOT Imperian. ... I imagine he won't be paid to develop the game, but we'll make a 'pretty' web client for a black/white/green text game to exist in? Why should I invest in a game where development is development is constantly side-lined for IRE wide alterations that will generate more revenue in other games because they're more developed? Do you see the problem here?

We don't actually know where and how new revenue streams or the biggest opportunities are. There's difference between maintaining a captive buyer and capturing and retaining a new buyer. Unfortunately for Jeremy and co, the last three months have seen them trade goodwill for profitability in their captive buyer population, and I suspect we will see why they have elected to do so - underlying changes/events/etc. Only time will tell if the changes were worth the exchange in goodwill.

In the end, from our perspective, internal changes are our best bang-for-buck.

From their perspective, this could certainly be an erroneous assumption.

But it doesn't mean we can't vote with our feet.

Khizan

Got to admit, I am pretty happy with these changes. I still think it's time to lay off the BUY BUY BUY promotions, but this seems pretty solid now that fragments are basically artifact coupons with an innate tradein value. I was hoping for a price point more like 1200 on the Quicksilver Armor, but I'd have gone up to 1500 in an auction with no questions asked, so I can't really complain there. 

Nicely done; I was wrong about there being no way to save this promotion.

EDIT: Will I be able to purchase artifact pieces with credits after the promotion is over? Like, if I buy a Veil fragment now because I get it cheap, will I be able to buy my other 4 pieces 3 months from now when I scrape together the rest of the credits?

Jeremy Saunders

The monthly sale is a funny thing. When we have it, people complain that we should be spending time on other things. When we don't have it (which we tried last year) we got so many complaints that we had to put one in at the middle of the month. That said, the next 2 months of sales are set and coded already, so it will not take any time away from the game.

@Khizan Yes, we will leave in the option to buy fragments. I cannot really see any reason why we should remove it.

Khizan

Does this mean that the Quicksilver Armor/Weapon and Phoenix Wings will be staying around past the end of the month, too?

Jeremy Saunders

Let me think about that. I was going to remove them, but with pieces floating around I may just leave them.

Sarapis

Ahkan said:

@Bathan
While I also think this promotion is beyond terrible, I don't think it's presence is somehow a sign that the other stuff is not being worked on.

I apologize if my post came across this way, it was not my intention. Last month we had a pretty awful promotion that was a blatant "Give me all ur money" and punished people for investing early. There was an exchange of ideas between the customers and the administration. They posted a hollow shell of an outline and promised to do better. They didn't really deliver (though I'm sure the argument will be they had no time). Now it's June. Despite the hollow pleas to the contrary, no one learned their lessons from last month. June is as cash grabby and is trying to drive us to buy BUY BUY! We get annoyed. The response is to do what they should have done on June first BEFORE the promotion and post another hollow outline. I have a hard time sinking my teeth into a reactionary "I swear we're doing work" post.  It seems more like a placating maneuver than an actually attempt at progress.

 The problem that I see and I wanted to address in my post is that why should I invest in your game? Imperian has 3 coders. 2/3 of them are often assigned to projects NOT Imperian. Why, if all the games are part of the company, is Imperian footing the bill and the workload for Lusternia, Aetolia, Midkemia and Achaea? The remaining coder, despite his attempts to the contrary, is not actually a coder. I only play Imperian. I would like to see some sort of development in Imperian. I see that Imperian is an empty shell of an rpg that functions as a soulless pvp sandbox. In my tenure in Imperian, I've seen us blow through at least three coders who were badass (Bayron, Vashir, Eusto) and I wonder where they went. Based on what I've seen so far, we've got a good coder in Eoghan. I imagine he won't be paid to develop the game, but we'll make a 'pretty' web client for a black/white/green text game to exist in? Why should I invest in a game where development is development is constantly side-lined for IRE wide alterations that will generate more revenue in other games because they're more developed? Do you see the problem here?

Matt Mihaly here. I run Iron Realms.

I'm not sure where you got your information, but it's a bit off.

Imperian has one paid coder (Dranor) that is paid by Imperian, and one producer (Jeremy) who also has other duties in Iron Realms, and is paid mostly by Iron Realms, not Imperian. Garryn, who I assume you're thinking is the third coder, is paid entirely by Iron Realms. Any coding work he does on Imperian-the-game is on his own time as a volunteer.

Bathan

Jeremy said:

The monthly sale is a funny thing. When we have it, people complain that we should be spending time on other things. When we don't have it (which we tried last year) we got so many complaints that we had to put one in at the middle of the month. That said, the next 2 months of sales are set and coded already, so it will not take any time away from the game.

@Khizan Yes, we will leave in the option to buy fragments. I cannot really see any reason why we should remove it.

BTW, thanks for the transparency over the last couple of days. We obviously complain a lot, but we do it because we enjoy the game and want to see it continue on. You've been super awesome today. Thanks a bunch!

Sarapis

Sarapis said:

Ahkan said:

 other games because they're more developed? Do you see the problem here?

I also just have to chuckle here, and I mean that nicely. Every game's populations thinks the other games are more developed as far as I can tell. Achaeans (where I spend most of my time) are always saying, "Why can't we have <X> that <other IRE game> has," for instance. In fact, there's a thread on the Achaea forums right now with people asking us to sell them custom races ala last month's Imperian promo. http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/2288/imperian-sells-races-and-i-want-them-in-achaea-d

Iniar

Garryn, who I assume you're thinking is the third coder, is paid entirely by Iron Realms. Any coding work he does on Imperian-the-game is on his own time as a volunteer.

This is why I @Garryn.

Also, if you are a nerd like me and want to play an IRE game, there simply is no better one than Imperian (while it has its downsides) - look at multiclassing and autocuring. I love that Imperian is the space the IRE uses to innovate, and this is something healthy for Imperian. Now if you could finally solve the problem with circle distribution, I will delighted in extremis.

Jeremy Saunders

I love @Garryn too!

Ahkan

@Sarapis

I was trying to use development as a word for story line and background. We're sort of the bees knees when it comes to innovation. We're just hollow when it comes to substance. Thanks for clearing up the coder business. I guess there was just some communication between we have 3 coders. At least we know the breakdown now. Thanks!

Gurn

PvP is cool and all, but the niche of MUDs is the roleplay that can happen because it's text based, and thus is significantly less costly to create awesome storylines. Any regular game would have to create new meshes, textures, animations, code mechanics etc, etc, as well as write the story(and possibly voice act, too). 

I'm pretty sure most, if not all of us, came to MUDs because of the RP possibilities. It's awesome RP and a constantly updating and involved storyline that keeps players, both old and new(See: Guild Wars 2). New mechanics and minigames and shinies will placate people for a week, maybe two. A strong storyline will keep people glued to Imperian for years to come.

It's no coincidence that the God Wars were when everyone was the most excited and active-- Not because of the 'war' mechanic, but because it was damned exciting watching everything unfold and change around you. 

Khizan

I bet nobody will be surprised to learn that my pre-IRE background is SMAUG PK muds.

circlecirclegougedrinkhealdrinkhealdrinkspringcircle

Gurn

When I first came to Imperian, the thing that sold me wasn't OMFG PKAYS it was PLAYER CONTROLLED CITIES, GUILDS, GOVERNMENT, and GODS ARE REAL AND INTERACT?! BASICALLY A GIGANTIC D&D CAMPAIGN WITH MULTIPLE DMS?!

But I mean to be fair the thing that boggled my mind the most was that you had to eat and sleep and bathe. For some reason that was the selling point for me.

Iluv

Khizan said:

I bet nobody will be surprised to learn that my pre-IRE background is SMAUG PK muds.

circlecirclegougedrinkhealdrinkhealdrinkspringcircle

I bet nobody will be surprised to learn that (especially after seeing how eager I was to put the children in the undead-o-mator of doom) that my pre-IRE background was Hellmoo.

Iniar

I had to Google it. :[ "Most importantly, it provides a valuable public service by keeping the type of people who would play HellMOO off the street."

Bathan

Iluv said:

Khizan said:

I bet nobody will be surprised to learn that my pre-IRE background is SMAUG PK muds.

circlecirclegougedrinkhealdrinkhealdrinkspringcircle

I bet nobody will be surprised to learn that (especially after seeing how eager I was to put the children in the undead-o-mator of doom) that my pre-IRE background was Hellmoo.

That explains your contribution in the necromancer tower.

1. Run in.

2. See dialogue.

3. SPAM GREET EVERYTHING.

4. Summon water and bathe like, four times?

5. OH I KNOW WHERE KIDS ARE.

6. BYE.

Iniar

Gurn said:

When I first came to Imperian, the thing that sold me wasn't OMFG PKAYS it was PLAYER CONTROLLED CITIES, GUILDS, GOVERNMENT, and GODS ARE REAL AND INTERACT?! BASICALLY A GIGANTIC D&D CAMPAIGN WITH MULTIPLE DMS?!

But I mean to be fair the thing that boggled my mind the most was that you had to eat and sleep and bathe. For some reason that was the selling point for me.

They're also cannibalistic DMs. 

Mathiaus

I wish I could help develop storylines and such while being able to still play Mathiaus within the game, but there seems to be a clear distinction between working as a helper for the game and being able to actually play the full mechanics of the game as well. Could be wrong of course. but writers like Bathan and among others who are really great at plotting out stories and backgrounds seem to be limited by the one-way player perspective.

Ahkan

Dude, it's called role play.

You sit down. You play a choose your own adventure. You think "Hey, this could be really cool." You tell your city leader. It becomes an org-request. The next thing you know, you've dictated the story line of your organization. It's really awesome to see that the administration is actually getting behind supporting this sort of organic development style. If you've got entities that are willing to function as enablers and the man behind the wizard of oz, you can get so much amazing stuff done.

Jules

Heh, I won't even play in these promotions in Achaea, where there are at least more players you might trade with.  I don't dig the talisman concept in general, as I'm not fond of gambling when I'm trying to buy something for a good deal

Gurn

Mathiaus said:

I wish I could help develop storylines and such while being able to still play Mathiaus within the game, but there seems to be a clear distinction between working as a helper for the game and being able to actually play the full mechanics of the game as well. Could be wrong of course. but writers like Bathan and among others who are really great at plotting out stories and backgrounds seem to be limited by the one-way player perspective.

Sects were pretty much designed for this specific purpose. There's a lot you can crank out even as a player and change the canon of Imperian and whatnot.

Ultrix

Jeremy said:

Let me think about that. I was going to remove them, but with pieces floating around I may just leave them.

Has there been any further decision as to whether the "limited promo" items (quicksilver armour/weapon, phoenix wings) will stick around after the end of this month?