Well damn... I guess Antioch should be setting up the monk/convocation rites (but that honestly sounds awful).
EDIT: and again, it's kind of hard to be "raiding" if you don't actually enter the city of your own accord. You can sit outside a city saying "hey, come play with me", and while we use the term "raid" there all the time, it's not the same thing as old school raiding. And that's probably because cities are incredibly well defended (which is fine, and I think, was the point) - but that makes using their defenses for anything beyond actual city defense an even more important question. As for repopping city loyals that are outside the city, those seem to exist almost exclusively for people like you to say "hey, someone please come play with me" (and not "hey, please drag me into your siege line").
<snipped from a deleted post> You don't like dying. Don't PK.
That's the problem. Beckoning a dude into your Noctusari (twice!) NPC with nets and cannon balls isn't exactly PK. It's certainly not fun. Bottom line, I'd love to hash this out and see what admin's final stance is here. Even if it's an answer I don't like, I'd rather know exactly what the thinking is here. My current understanding from the players in my circle is A) doing this sort of thing is incredibly, incredibly lame and it's lame enough that it's an issue you have a very high chance of losing if someone decides "enough" and presses that button.
As for Theo, if he was fine with this one, great... and most of us have been giving a lot of leeway on these (I didn't do anything when it happened to me, and I was summoned into siege from halfway across the world, from a shard fall), but ring chatter makes it pretty clear that there's a pretty low tolerance for it (which I think makes perfect sense).
Attacking loyals, camping outside the gates, raiding...any of those things opens you to being pulled into siege, it's just general tactics. We're not talking empress your bashing enemy into the siege line, we're talking raiders and people baiting PvP. Given a chance I will always get those people into siege to remove them quickly and fully expect the same to happen to me in close promixmity to the gates of enemy cities/councils. Fun in this case is relative. While it might not be fun to be pulled into siege, that's a risk you're taking when you're sitting outside the gates trying to provoke defenders.
I can't believe this is even a discussion. @Jules, you're proposing the raiding equivalent of putting your hand in someone's face and taunting "I'm not touching you, but I could..." and then complaining when you get smacked. If you're perched outside of a city attempting to raid (a very regular event for Antioch the last few months), of course the city is going to pull you into guards. Even in this log, Theophilus was two rooms outside of Stavenn - I guarantee he expected this exact scenario to happen, given that he's done it himself many times.
"Hitting the issue button often and early" is pretty much the worst response you could have in this situation, and shows both a lack of understanding of how conflict is driven and a low appreciation for the administration, by forcing them to act as mediators for a fight you're causing - the Imperian version of running to the teacher when the bullied kid snaps back. You're provoking another organization and then playing the victim when they use their guards exactly as they're designed. Who cares if ring chatter shows a "pretty low tolerance" for this? If you don't want to deal with it, don't raid. There is no tangible benefit for doing so other than trying to provoke the opposing organization, and it's pretty clear from this exchange that you don't really have the fortitude to handle the conflict.
Well, I'm rarely in the position of being that close to city siege line unless we do have proper blocks up - especially as this seems to be a more popular tactic lately. I've eaten plenty of guard deaths though, but usually when I truly WAS raiding - as in, actually in enemy territory of my own accord, causing trouble, which seems to be mainly doable only in townes. I really try to avoid "my side doesn't do this", but in this case... "my side doesn't do this" - certainly not that I have ever seen. I mean, the reason I've never seen us drop convocation rites all over (like, say, in Sevienn's room, and certainly rooms right outside Antioch) and had a monk strip defs until they hit mass is because we discussed that exact topic on ring once, and everyone in our circle seems to agree that that would be incredibly lame (and very likely issuable, as well).
That said, if the rules/admin say this is actually allowed, and most of the players in other circles support it/are doing it, maybe AM might as well get on board. I really dislike it, however. I mean, in this example, we have an Outrider outside the city who can't even do something like say, try to tex you outside the city (which demonic loves to do to us) and someone is beckoning him into siege from the safety of full city defenses. That's why this always feels icky. It is one thing to say "you're near my city and you like to cause trouble, I will come cause trouble for you" (again, that seems to be why repopping city loyals outside the gates exist in the first place, for example). It's another to bring your city defenses into that interaction. City defenses are extremely powerful here in Imperian in order to make "real" raiding nearly impossible, because people didn't like actual raiding (the kind where people camp out in your central square for as long as they like and kill all of your guards that DON'T repop, probably when there's two noobs around to defend).
Everyone in your circle does not agree on that, as it's been done countless times. You're either suffering from a representation bias or viewing your own circle through rose colored glasses. It's fair game, it's been done to death, it's nothing new. The reason you haven't seen it done is because it's very rare that anyone attempts to 'raid' Antioch, and it's equally rare for AM to have monks on hand to counter it.
This really isn't hard to figure out. If you come to a city trying to cause trouble, expect trouble. If you want clean, fair PK, approach objectives where that is specified (see: virtually every conflict system that exists in the game). AM is in the unique position to cause more trouble than most right now, and it's frankly ridiculous that you're using that as an opportunity to complain that city defenses are being employed in defense of the city.
AM might get on board? They already are. Being in the desert and getting delivered or what have you into siege has always been around. This isn't a new thing, this is the way it's always been. Raiding is raiding, there's no line to be drawn, if you provoke/attack and get dragged into siege, that's totally acceptable.
I figured it probably had been done at SOME point in the past (deliver/convocation into siege), but anytime in the past year and half or so (which is how long I've been an active player)? If it has, I'd like to hear about it (really).
Maybe don't issue for anything ever short of actual emotional harassment, racism, misogyny, bigotry, you know, the big ones. Who cares? Death is meaningless.
I can't even remember the number of times I've had deliver attempted on me while being in the desert. Surprisingly, the one trying to deliver is doing it from the siege line, which you know, is perfectly valid. And then there's the beckons, telepathy, brazier and what have you. AM is not on some moral high ground here, this is how the game is played by every circle.
I will 100% beckon into siege, especially like a few days ago when It was just me in Antioch trying to stop Kryss and co. from killing more guards.
The one thing I dislike is when we are at a shard fall/caravan/statue/whatever and I missed being lusted still and get pulled to Stavenn. That is unneeded in my opinion as you are doing nothing but trolling.
That's the apples and oranges I'm interested in though. If Kryss and co. were killing actual guards they pretty much had to be legit raiding, and in city/towne proper. Anyway, unless Eoghan says otherwise, it sounds like admin would probably view, say, killing the repopping loyals outside the city (say, in our desert), and getting Siege'd for it in the same way they would if those players were to actually enter the city and kill guards. I always thought those outside city loyals existed as a fun "please come fight (or not) mechanic", but that is probably not the case then.
If you are fighting within a reasonable distance of a city they are 100% within their rights to summon you into defenses. This is how it is and how it has always been. If you have never been summoned into defenses in that situation before, it is not because they are not trying to do it, it is because Septus and I know how this game goes and we are very careful about walls and blocking and consecration and we generally don't let it happen.
If you are wondering why we never do it to people in the desert as AM, it's because AM sucks at summoning people into siege because we don't have lust or vortex. It's certainly not because of any code of e-bushido. I am not only on board this "kill enemies with guards" train, I am the goddamn conductor.
If you don't want to get summoned into defenses, stay the hell away from cities. If you want to fight near cities, put on your big girl pants and accept the fact that you're gonna get munched by cannons occasionally.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
It is okay. I have seen the error of my ways and am now begging Khizan and Septus for a new ability called "wyrm-tex" so we can play this Siege line game proper (I kid, sort of).
Well, since I quit play with Ifreann. I decided to create a new character. I won't able to play with him too much again. My new wanted to have fun for a few minutes but may be he choose wrong one.
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "Up to entertain me?"
Dreacor tells you, "Like how?"
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "I like cartwheel dancing."
Dreacor tells you, "What you want?"
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "Dance for me and I will pay for you."
Dreacor tells you, "If you don't have anything serious to say to me, keep in silence."
Dreacor tells you, "And no, I don't dance for you."
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "500 gold for 15 minutes cartwheel dance. You shouldn't lose this opportunity."
Dreacor tells you, "Next time you suggest anything that stupid for me, I'll hunt you down."
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "Oh! It's exciting too. How much do you want for it?"
Well, since I quit play with Ifreann. I decided to create a new character. I won't able to play with him too much again. My new wanted to have fun for a few minutes but may be he choose wrong one.
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "Up to entertain me?"
Dreacor tells you, "Like how?"
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "I like cartwheel dancing."
Dreacor tells you, "What you want?"
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "Dance for me and I will pay for you."
Dreacor tells you, "If you don't have anything serious to say to me, keep in silence."
Dreacor tells you, "And no, I don't dance for you."
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "500 gold for 15 minutes cartwheel dance. You shouldn't lose this opportunity."
Dreacor tells you, "Next time you suggest anything that stupid for me, I'll hunt you down."
You tell Dreacor Blackfyre, "Oh! It's exciting too. How much do you want for it?"
I had to look up cartwheel dancing (because hey, it might exist!), and this is what the suggestions look like:
Obviously, as a spear wielder, Dreacor is better equipped for cartwheel pole dancing than us trident users, so you can definitely understand where Ifreann was coming from. I am sure this is why he asked Dreacor rather than say, Khizan.
Comments
"Hitting the issue button often and early" is pretty much the worst response you could have in this situation, and shows both a lack of understanding of how conflict is driven and a low appreciation for the administration, by forcing them to act as mediators for a fight you're causing - the Imperian version of running to the teacher when the bullied kid snaps back. You're provoking another organization and then playing the victim when they use their guards exactly as they're designed. Who cares if ring chatter shows a "pretty low tolerance" for this? If you don't want to deal with it, don't raid. There is no tangible benefit for doing so other than trying to provoke the opposing organization, and it's pretty clear from this exchange that you don't really have the fortitude to handle the conflict.
This really isn't hard to figure out. If you come to a city trying to cause trouble, expect trouble. If you want clean, fair PK, approach objectives where that is specified (see: virtually every conflict system that exists in the game). AM is in the unique position to cause more trouble than most right now, and it's frankly ridiculous that you're using that as an opportunity to complain that city defenses are being employed in defense of the city.
The one thing I dislike is when we are at a shard fall/caravan/statue/whatever and I missed being lusted still and get pulled to Stavenn. That is unneeded in my opinion as you are doing nothing but trolling.
If you are fighting within a reasonable distance of a city they are 100% within their rights to summon you into defenses. This is how it is and how it has always been. If you have never been summoned into defenses in that situation before, it is not because they are not trying to do it, it is because Septus and I know how this game goes and we are very careful about walls and blocking and consecration and we generally don't let it happen.
If you are wondering why we never do it to people in the desert as AM, it's because AM sucks at summoning people into siege because we don't have lust or vortex. It's certainly not because of any code of e-bushido. I am not only on board this "kill enemies with guards" train, I am the goddamn conductor.
If you don't want to get summoned into defenses, stay the hell away from cities. If you want to fight near cities, put on your big girl pants and accept the fact that you're gonna get munched by cannons occasionally.
"On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."
Agreed. I don't care I got beckoned into siege.. I don't issue for anything related to PK anyway.
(Ring): Lartus says, "Then it exploded."
(Ring): Zsetsu says, "Everyone's playing checkers, but Theophilus is playing chess."
Silly crown, I'll show you!
You put the crown of the Emperor into a behemothskin pack.
A behemothskin pack which you are holding suddenly bursts into flames and turns
into ash.
=[
Warned you.