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City Raiding and Defence

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  • Ahkan said:
    Too many people don't understand the war system
    Exactly the right number of people understand the war system.
  • 10,000 gold is 100,000 gold every ten days. That is 260,000 to 310,000 gold every month. That is 1mil every 3.x months at the minimum. That is a LOT of gold in the long run. It might look like a drop in the bucket for a little while, but eventually it will add up on top of other costs for cities, like enhancements or other guard costs, etc.

    I am entirely against the idea of gold being the resource that governs telepaths and archers. I would rather they have a different upkeep.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • You also don't have to activate your archers every day.
  • Then the better argument would be suggesting that Jeremy reduce the gold upkeep cost? I think he's been pretty open to hybridizing the upkeep anyways.

    That being said, I can make 10k in a 15m bashing trip. It's not a 'high bar' to expect one city to expend 15m of work for one person per day. Or as Juran said, sell 1 credit per day.
  • The point of new security is it shouldn't be a luxury. It should just be something we have. I'm against the idea of an upkeep cost in the first place.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • I have no problem with there being an opportunity cost. In addition, if a city isn't at war I don't have a problem with an advantage for not paying the upkeep.
  • edited January 2014
    Right now we would be talking about 10K each, so 20K a month. It would add up, but as stated, you do not have to have them on all the time. 

    We are also working on more guard types for the near future. I am probably going to up the base levels of the guards too.

  • Not gonna lie, archers/telepaths on top of guards is sort of a luxury. It should have a cost associated with it. You should have to pay to have a fortress.
    Just out of curiosity what are they at now?
  • @Ahkan? What are what at? The cost? Right now at 10K. I will think about it overnight and put them in, in the morning.

  • I think he was asking about the base levels of the guards, @Jeremy.

  • Oh right. 80 and 160 I think.

  • When you get down to it, my major problem with guards is that they're too easy to kill. They're too easy to kill and there is no cost for doing so aside from the time it takes to do it. The guards-hit-first change means you need more people and the recent death change raised the price, but that's all it did. Clearing a city requires no special strategy or tactics or technique, just the willingness to spend the entire night slamming into the defenses while the other city is in bed. Dividing up your guards only makes this easier, and so as long as this situation persists, guard coverage will be spotty at best. 

    Right now, if you put 25% of your guard force on patrol in the shopping district, you have not increased city security, you've hung a bright red "raid me now" sign around your neck. Changes to guards that do not fix this are not going to be effective changes.

    There are some kinds of changes I'd like to see:

    1. Splash Damage: I'd like to see this as a default on knights/Mages, who seem to be the base damage guards. Smaller clots become harder targets and attrition-bashing becomes harder.
    2. Defensive Guards: Healer guards that actively heal injured guards. Shieldbearer guards that defend other guards. Things to help alleviate the enter|attack attrition method of guard killing.
    3. Numbness: Numbness should act as a damage reduction versus guard damage, not a complete immunity. 
    4. Call for Help: When you call for help next to a guard squad, it would be really cool if you got the entire squad of guards and not just 5 guards chosen seemingly at random.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • Yes. We will be doing a lot of this. New types of guards are next on my list.

  • You know guard feature or guard type I would pay for? Let's call him the Narc. You could only activate him -after- call for help against <x> has been initiated.

    The Narc would bypass:
    -Obfuscate
    -Shroud
    -Veil of obtenerate

    He wouldn't do any damage. He wouldn't do any afflictions. You know what he would do? He would yell or say things on ct like

    (Khandava) The Narc says, "Lionas is at Kumquat Alley!"
    (Khandava) The Narc says, "Lionas is at Kumquat Alley north!"
    (Khandava) The Narc says, "One if by land, two if by sea!"

    I guess you could call the guard type Revere too, but w/e.

  • AhkanAhkan Texas
    edited January 2014
    Dear Antioch, sorry I killed your gate keeper and your guard. It was for science.

    @Jeremy: Attacking NPC's provokes call for help. However, it does not provoke call for help for archers, telepaths. I think it should.


    You slip behind a royal guard and garrote him with your whip.
    You kind of hit hard.
    A royal guard begins to yell for help.  <-- guard movement call for help
    D: 457 [35.48%]
    Kisaf, Keeper of the Treasures springs to a royal guard's defence.

    @Jeremy
    Also, after we get this all hashed out and whatnot, can we take some creative license with these messages and keep a basic template for archers, a little more creativity to telepaths?

    Flaming arrows rain down at you from above.
    An ebony arrow strikes you in the knee, fired from a guard upon the walls.

    A monk kai chokes you because that's what they do.
    A summoner has combusted you because fire!
    The demonic fumes around Khandava are toxic and choke you.
    The feeling of love an contentment makes you choke.
    The delicious smell of pizza makes your stomach clench in hunger.
  • Also, guard movement is... really, really screwy.

    Here's an example of what I mean. Focus is used as a way to show the passing of time:

    H:550/550 M:592/610 B:0 <eb> <db> city guard squad harbinger standguard 13357 permanent|||focus
    The Harbinger squad has been ordered to standguard at 'Entering the gates of Stavenn'.
    You focus your mind intently on curing your mental maladies.
    H:550/550 M:594/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A pleasant warmth soothes your body and mind.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Your mind is able to focus once again.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db> city guard squad harbinger standguard 13357|||focus
    The Harbinger squad has been ordered to standguard at 'Entering the gates of Stavenn'.
    You focus your mind intently on curing your mental maladies.
    H:550/550 M:594/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the west, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:594/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the west.
    H:550/550 M:594/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the west, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:594/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the west.
    H:550/550 M:594/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the west, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:592/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Your mind is able to focus once again.
    H:550/550 M:592/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the west.
    H:550/550 M:592/610 B:0 <eb> <db> city guard squad harbinger standguard 13357 permanent|||focus
    The Harbinger squad has been ordered to standguard at 'Entering the gates of Stavenn'.
    You focus your mind intently on curing your mental maladies.
    H:550/550 M:577/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A pleasant warmth soothes your body and mind.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Your mind is able to focus once again.

    The only way to prevent this that I have found is standguard permanent. So they will never answer a call for help. That's okay, though, because when you call for help when you are right next to a squad on standguard, this is what happens:

    You yell, "Help! Help!"
    Equilibrium Taken: 2.75s
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <-b> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <-b> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A young Noctusari strides out to the east, bright eyes alert to danger.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <-b> <db>
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <-b> <db>
    You have regained your mental equilibrium.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A pleasant warmth soothes your body and mind.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    You feel your density return to normal.
    You have lost the density defence.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    You quickly rub some mass salve on your skin.
    Your body grows extremely dense and heavy as the mass salve infuses your skin.
    You have gained the density defence.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    You may apply another salve.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    An elite Diavlous Knight waves goodbye.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:607/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A pleasant warmth soothes your body and mind.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    An elite Diavlous Knight waves goodbye.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    A black armored figure stomps out to the east, his helmed head swiveling as he appraises all threats.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A patrol of fifty-seven guards leave to the east.
    H:550/550 M:610/610 B:0 <eb> <db> ql
    The Imperial Plaza. (lost) (City of Stavenn.)
    A few small pieces spilling out, a bag of bread crumbs lies here. A small silvery stone is here, surrounded in haze.
    There are 3 iron-tipped whips here. A fragile little bird with blush-coloured feathers is perched here, warbling a
    lovely tune. His supple form moving gracefully, a sinuous sorrel gelding is here. A sleek black hound stands stone
    still, ears perked and alert. An elite elegantly dressed Noctusari is manning a cannon here. She has fifty-two cannon
    balls. A pathfinder bobs about in a circle, flexing its long wiry antennae.
    You see exits leading east and west.
    H:550/550 M:607/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    H:550/550 M:607/610 B:0 <eb> <db>
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    A young practitioner of demon magick walks in from the east.
    Steel shod boots ringing, a black clad knight enters from the east

    I called for help once, and now they have wandered 4 rooms past me to the west. And now they're back. And I can only stop this random-assed wandering with standguard permanent.

    Also:

    Stavenn Patrol List
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. Main
    2. Siege
    3. Vault
    4. Gate
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    CITY GUARD PATROL <patrol name> for about the patrol.
    H:550/550 M:607/610 B:0 <eb> <db> city guard patrol Main
    That does not seem to be a patrol command.


    Stavenn Squad List
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. Harbinger
    2. Siege
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    CITY GUARD SQUAD <squad name> for information on each squad.
    H:550/550 M:607/610 B:0 <eb> <db> city guard squad harbinger
    That does not seem to be a squad command.

    I love the idea here, but this is buggy as hell to deal with.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • @Ahkan I will work on fixing that attacking a guard thing.

    @Khizan I will work on the call for help stuff.

  • Hey, Jeremy. When somebody attacks a city mobile, that mobile calls for help. Does this alert telepaths and archers? If not, why?

    Also, it doesn't show on the millog or city log if you turn them on or off. This is a secretive way to totally drain the security coffers, even if it requires the access to the council room.
    <div>Message #2062&nbsp; Sent By: (imperian)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Received On: 1/20/2018/2:59</div><div>"Antioch has filed a bounty against you. Reason: Raiding Antioch and stealing Bina, being a right</div><div>ass, and not belonging anywhere near Antioch till he grows up."</div>
  • Ahkan said:
    @Jeremy: Attacking NPC's provokes call for help. However, it does not provoke call for help for archers, telepaths. I think it should.
    It currently does not. Jeremy said in the post immediately above yours that he'll look into it.
  • I thought it was logging. There must be a bug. I will look into it today.

  • @Jeremy It logs to revlog if you have archers/telepaths activated.


    <460/430h(~106) 520/520m(~100) 8.23x <eb> <db> 0E 0b revlog khandava

    2014/01/06 00:00:54 - You have paid out 20,000 gold to pay the Archers and
    Telepaths.

                                                   image
  • So which log would you want to see it in?

  • I feel like revlog is fine. You might put an 'activation' message in millog, but the gold upkeep is certainly a revlog entry.
  • @khizan Is that problem with the city guard patrol <name> (and squads) still happening? I am unable to reproduce it.

  • @jeremy

    Entered area phased and archers/telepaths hit me and continued to hit me while phased.

    They did not hit me yesterday at any time.
  • edited January 2014
    Okay, so.

    I think I am going to do this. 

    You will always call for help against a certain player. This will call guards within 10 rooms (currently 5) or in the barracks to come kill that player. They will keep tracking that player until they kill him (or he leaves the city). If he dies and there is another enemy in the room, they will beat on him. If there are no enemies in the room, they will go back to where they started.

    A couple of problems.

    1. If the guards are already attacking a certain player, what happens when I call for guards on another player? Or maybe 2 different defenders start calling for help at the same time.

    2. Right now call for help only calls 5 guards. Do you think we should do all the guards within the range?

    Thoughts?


  • Jeremy said:
    2. Right now call for help only calls 5 guards. Do you think we should do all the guards within the range?
    Guards moving by 5s is essentially worthless unless they're being raided by brave level 20 newbies.
  • I agree. That is the way it works right now though. I am thinking we just pull everyone to that spot.

  • The problem you run into is this is how we are going to abuse it.

    Attack afk sarrius
    Force Sarrius, "call for help against ahkan"
    entire team flies, Ahkan dashes sw.

    We will then land and shardwall the route the guards take and break them up into individual clots and kill them at our leisure as your guards cannot break shard walls. Ahkan never died, and we only lost 1 or two goblins on wall duty.

    Call for help should not override standguard permanent (right now) because the guards are buggy and easy enough to be zerged down. Once the entire guard revamp is done and guards are beefier and the system has had kinks banged out of it, then we could re-visit this. Right now it's too exploitable.

    Also, what happens if:
    Ahkan calls for help against Juran
    and
    Khizan calls for help against Sarrius

    Who do the guards focus? Does his override mine? 
  • Actually, it's a good time to bring this up. @Jeremy

    Why not just remove the ability to force all city commands from every force command in the game? It's a rather silly problem to have to balance skills around and deal with. #shardbombshenanigans #traitors
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