Tokens

Ahkan

1. We are going to remove tokens from the memberships on January 1st, 2014. We had intended for token items to be scarcer and with the massive amounts of tokens in the game that is not possible. We also feel that the membership is still a HUGE value without the tokens (daily lessons, monthly credits, permanent credit bonus, xp bonus, and the phylactery).  However, if you do not agree, you will still be able to get your tokens for the next couple of months and deactivate before the end of the year.

So, I don't want to be a jerk about this. That's your fault for stacking token generation. Iron Elite, phylacteries, stockings, giftbags, monthly promos. Tokens are awesome and I don't really want to be punished for your oopsie. If you want to break into the supply, maybe you should just sell all of token wares all the time. Once people figure out how awesome atlas pages are, you'll start gobbling up tokens like a bunch of fat kids. Next step, only customize through token wares. Raise the price. If you're replacing it with some other system, enlighten us so we don't  freak out. Aleutia's broken right now and I blame you.

2. Soulstones purchased via tokens will not be able to be traded in for credits starting November 1st. We have been careful not to set gold value on credits in the game so that the value of credits can vary based on demand.  We feel as though setting a credit value on tokens (via soulstone tradeins) is not good.

Duh. This directly relates to problem one. There was nothing wrong with this. Though, you're never going avoid this. As long as it's able to be traded it's going to have some sort of credit cost. You can either make it traded or not. That's up to you.

We've also added some consumables to the token wares over the past couple of months so that your tokens can still have significant value to you, just not at a direct conversion to credits. We plan on improving existing items more and adding new ones to the program.

This is awesome. This should be used to resolve point 1. If you stop using tokens as a default stocking stuffer for "Whelp, you didn't get a free artifact" tokens have more value.

At the end of the day, I really don't get why you're removing tokens from the elite package. If you want to reduce the supply, reduce it to one. If you want to reduce the availability of stupid crap, remove the stupid crap from the token wares stock pile or make the cost something stupidly exorbitant. Hell, add a 'shop tax' of 1 token a year to keep your crappy market stall running.

Market stall: 50-100 tokens House: 100-200

Edit: Additions.

By reducing the supply, or even hinting at it, you're going to be inflating the 'value' of tokens. I know the end of days is coming, so if I'm smart (which some of us are) we're going to invest in those bad boys now and sit on a Smaug horde that we can save on expenditure later for the cool toys or we're going to sell them to the peasants at a ridiculous markup. Here, your change 1 is undoing your change 2 which is going to ruin your change 3.

How are you going to offer tokens? Not gonna lie, ponying up $300 dollars for 3 tokens is a pretty craptacular deal. How is Joe-the-newbie supposed to get his paws on tokens? The black market is going to rape him six ways from Tuesday and he can't buy them outside of promos. What is Joe to do for tasty token goodness? Either way he's getting extorted. Actually, this change really dings newbies. Aleutia, Selthis, Khizan, Ahkan, Lionas all already have the sweet tasty token items that they need. The only people who get boned from here on out are newbies and midbies. Think of the newbies. 

Sarrius

The supply of tokens is already what it is. Don't change it. The reason why there are so many is because you shoved them down our throats for monthly promotions. Stop doing that and bring back some different ones.

Also make the token consumables worth my time. Portal coins are boring. Cairns are boring. I don't like consumable items attached to the credit or token market, to be frank. I would rather cairns be permanent, and coins simply be like purchasable 'attunements' to let you access a scenario or portal coin area at your leisure.

Ambrose

Eh, I am fairly unimpressed with the token items, arti pipes excluded. Argh Pee wise, being able to learn some of the language stuff is neat... Pet items are a convenience thing... but... really... I'm giving this a, eh, big deal? Though, I do wish we'd get some return in value, but, I suppose that the powers that be have decided otherwise.

Selthis

I'm composing my thoughts, expect a bit of wordvomit at some point.

Jeremy Saunders

Selthis said:

I'm composing my thoughts, expect a bit of wordvomit at some point.

I'll be waiting!

Arakis

"We had intended for token items to be scarcer and with the massive amounts of tokens in the game that is not possible."--- In the SAME MONTH that you're having a token promotion.

Jeremy Saunders

Also please keep in mind (and I did not say this in the announce post):

1. We will have other ways to get tokens outside of buying credits. Like participating in certain events, monthly contests, etc.

2. Right now, with the tokens, the memberships a just too good of a deal. Right now someone can get over 200 credits a month 25 dollars. Not to mention all the lessons.

3. We will probably move token items around a little bit (some over to credit items) and make new token only items that make sense.

4. We may reprice some of the token items down the road at the "token economy" recovers from this "crushing blow of doom"!

Jeremy Saunders

Arakis said:

"We had intended for token items to be scarcer and with the massive amounts of tokens in the game that is not possible."--- In the SAME MONTH that you're having a token promotion.

That is actually something we do not have a ton of control over. There will be more in the future too. The sales have to be determined across all the IRE games and ultimately I would not really like to have too many token sales. I like people having to earn, find, and trade for tokens. If there are items that people think should be on the credit side no matter what, I am open to suggestions there.

Lionas

I'll be cancelling my elite.

Ambrose

Jeremy said:

 If there are items that people think should be on the credit side no matter what, I am open to suggestions there.

I think this depends on what sort of items you are wanting on the token side... there are certain actually USEFUL items... arti pipes... some of the pet items... the vial of perpetuity is probably up there, but it's price is pretty steep, etc... and then there are more novelty, collector things that, while fun, impact my play in very few practical ways... are you wanting token items to follow a certain genre?

Aleutia

Jeremy said:

Also please keep in mind (and I did not say this in the announce post):

1. We will have other ways to get tokens outside of buying credits. Like participating in certain events, monthly contests, etc.

I can't think of an especially nice way to put this, but Admin's track record for holding contests monthly when they say they will has been utterly terrible. Bardic/Arts lasted all of one month. The rewards for Champions as far as I know still don't work. I don't have a lot of faith that something can be implemented to consistently give people a chance at tokens with the current precedent.

Jeremy Saunders

Well, monthly no. But instead of doing things where players get 10 credits on mothers day, or when we run a major even where all the participants get 25 credits, we would give tokens instead (or in addition). You are right though, monthly contests will not happen. My mistake there.

Ambrose

Also, because I missed it because I already had posted and didn't reread: Ahkan's edits are extremely insightful and deserve looking into and thought.

Ahkan

1. We will have other ways to get tokens outside of buying credits. Like participating in certain events, monthly contests, etc.

What monthly contest/event has remained intact and/or interesting?

2. Right now, with the tokens, the memberships a just too good of a deal. Right now someone can get over 200 credits a month 25 dollars. Not to mention all the lessons.

Honestly, that's your fault for allowing a conversion method to exist between tokens and credits. Your 'oops' set the baseline. We were more than happy to run with that because it was such a terribly inflated price.

3. We will probably move token items around a little bit (some over to credit items) and make new token only items that make sense.

Nothing to say. This makes sense.

4. We may reprice some of the token items down the road at the "token economy" recovers from this "crushing blow of doom"!

First off, it's not a crushing blow of doom. You hard sold the iron elite to Imperian players and you're removing one of the biggest draws to the package because the administration can't/won't build a reasonable system involving tokens. There is some decision making step missing in the whole 'machine' because no one says "You might not want to do this because.."

How about we make a compromise. You address one of two problems that bug you and you release them in stages and see how long the problem persists, instead of knee jerk removing tokens from the iron elite.

Here's a few ideas to address your problems, could even do this step wise.

1) Delete token soulstones.

2) Refund every gossamer anchor for full value. Sell it for 200-300 credits.

3) Honestly, refund every token shop. Put the store in 'limbo'

4) Hold a caanae shop auction. Sell a set number of shops and have people bid tokens on caanae shops. Only offer caanae shops.

5) Shard expansions. These should be way more expensive than they are.

6) Vialbelt expansions. Make shard versions for these. Selthis will buy it. You know he will.

7) Token pipes. Obsidian and gold pipe should be on sale for 100 credits a piece. Ivory pipes should just go away. 

8) Family tokens should be increased in cost.

9) House tokens should be increased in cost.

10) Cairn stones should cost 2. Why? You should spend an entire month's iron elite for an entire month's worth of questing.

11) Atlas pages should be on sell all the time.

12) You should change your pets every month and cycle through them. These kids love pokemon. Milk it. They should also cost more.

13) Tightly rolled scrolled. This should cost more. 

14) Vial of pereptuity. This should cost more. Why? I haven't had to refill a health vial in 3 years.

15) Shifting mirror should cost more. Peeping toms should always be extorted. Military intelligent (aka: Spy satellite) should run me at least 10 tokens.

16) For the love of god, make the Cairn/Instance system I suggested. People will froth at the mouth to do this. People will get out of bed early to do this.

You see the pattern here? You should do that. Token wares are awesome. Token wares are too cheap, like Selthis. Their cost should reflect their long term value. Log into Aetolia and look at their pricing, it's pretty legit. You're never going to dissuade us from borrowing/lending credits. You need to plan for that. Selthis is going to spot me 100 tokens for 1000 credits. There's not a problem here. You get your blood money.

Iluv

Off topic but make it so you can change the actions on a pet training token at any time (and increase the price if that's necessary).

Gurn

If you give me really sweet cairns and instanced bashing, I will be buying up so many tokens and using them up that we'll have a scarcity of tokens just for what I'm doing. I promise.

Selthis

This is going to be a long post, so please bear with me.

My name is Selthis and I speak for the .1%, I say that with no real pride or as a means to brag. It is just the way it is. I am a known token  hoarder.  I'd probably buy atlas pages if I was more active, but for now they're just sitting in my inventory. Depending on what is decided and posted officially, I may just cash them out for  tokens before Nov. 1.

From the outside looking in there seems to be two problems, promotion fatigue and issues with the token wares themselves. I guess I’ll talk a bit about both of them.

First thing I’ll cover from a player (and by player in this case I can only represent myself, though I am mixing in other opinions that have been expressed to me personally) perspective is Promotion fatigue. The simple fact is monthly promotions that require a purchase of credits has removed the “special” feeling of promotions. It used to be when there was a credit sale; I’d buy credits even if I didn’t need them because I might in the future or because it was a good deal. The sale meant something. Now it just feels like anniversary sex where both people are going through the motions.

I understand Imperian needs to make money to stay afloat, I don’t begrudge that in the least, but at this point every monthly thing seems to require a credit purchase. This alienates people who can’t afford to buy credits monthly but still play the game. We used to have promotions where you’d get lessons/credits for login time. Or unique little dumb artifacts that didn’t serve much purpose beyond saying you had them. I guess in my perfect world there would be a pretty standard schedule to promotions, 2 months of login promotions. Examples of the login promos I’m thinking of are like “if you login 20 days you get a box of randomly generated beans”, “login for 20 days and get 3 bouquets of buffing flowers”, “you login 10 minutes each day for 20 days and you get 2 soulbound tokens” and the like. On the third month in the cycle, you have a paid promotion, be it token packages, a flat bonus % on top of our purchase, artifact sale, whatever.

So it would be 2 months login – 1 month money promo – 2 months login – 1 month money promo and so forth. This gives people time to save up a bit between promotions and makes the promotions actually mean something. A sale feels better when it’s not right after a sale you just took part in for the same product the week before. We are talking about luxury goods, not groceries. And the incentive to purchase things varies quite a bit between the various money promos since I will hold off for what I deem as “good” at this point anyway. This way you appeal to everyone, and on top of it you get people logging in more.

As far as tokens from Elite and removing an “admin set value” from tokens. First, keep tokens in elite but remove soulstones from the purchasable list of token wares on Nov 1. Let them continue to be traded in for credits (they can drop from phylacteries for example, so being able to trade them in for credits is nice). But if I cannot obtain them for tokens, then tokens don't have a baseline value that is determined by artifact trade-ins.

I mean, I understand you guys are worried about providing too much for too little. But as a counterpoint, I’ve kept putting money into Imperian via Elite even when I’ve been taking a break. Even when I’ve not been playing, I’ve kept elite going. And on top of that I continue to do normal purchases when something catches my eye because of the added value. I guess my thought is if you keep it incentivized to stay on Elite (even if I don’t need the credits, the tokens are nice for atlas pages or obtaining unbound credits via selling), then I’m more likely to say “I’m 500 credits away from X, I’ll just drop some money on it rather than wait 3 months.” If elite didn’t feel like a value on multiple levels, that’s 25 dollars a month I probably won’t bother keeping up when I’m not actively playing.

 

Token wares themselves:

1.      You have all these familiars that are only available via phylacteries and the like. Make them all available on a rotating basis.

2.      Same thing with vanity pets.

3.      Atlas pages should be kept year round in case you were thinking of changing them.

4.      I am pretty okay with Ahkan’s refund stalls as the equivalent of 800 (32*25) unbound credits (I know of a few shop stalls that were group efforts) auction idea or the ability to purchase a shop for 1k credits flat-out 

5.      Double the cost of tokens for houses/family names.

6.      Remove Language tokens from token wares and just make them cost lessons.

New Token wares:

1.      I know you guys object to this stuff, but I am telling you people will pay for it. Old promotion stuff on a rotating basis. In particular the inkpot is nice as is the old special edition backpack that was like the artifact pack but also had a “cannot be opened except by user” or whatever it was (silver weave backpack I think it was).

2.      I’d move fishing artifacts from credits to token wares.

3.      The vialbelt/shard capacity of rift expansions Ahkan mentioned would be nice. There’s something nice about the certainty that if I want them, I can ensure I could never reasonably run out of elixirs accidently.

Current token wares that should be credit artifacts:

1.      Token pipes and vials of perpetuity should be credit artifacts.

2.      Anchor should be a credit artifact.

3.      Scroll should be a credit artifact.

Other related ideas:

1.      I know there’s lots of arguments against it every time it’s brought, but please switch artifacts to a power system that mean I can pay a 1 or 2 token fee to move a power from an artifact I own to an item of my choice. This obviously won’t work for weapons, but I’m pretty okay with that. It seems like most other stuff it would be workable as long as you make it require the wearable form to the item you’re transferring it to.

2.      Please make the boss npcs an instanced thing, but limit it to say 5 or so people in an instance at once. Rather than dropping temp artifacts, make them drop tokens or something. Make these tokens soulbound if it matters. Also make it so a person can only get so many tokens via that method in a week, 5 or so? However, please do not have instance locks. This allows a secondary industry of selling runs for achievements/tokens to rise up.

3.      Not exactly sure how portal coins work as is, but I like the idea of them being like a survival mode, with increasing difficulty on a pretty steady ramp. Maybe instead of temp artifacts, increase gold drops a fair bit and award extra XP if the person is over level 100. Basically, turn them in a way to earn the xp portion of the aspect perk system a bit faster.

Tl; dr:

Step 1: Remove soulstones from token wares. After Nov 1^st keep soulstones able to be traded in for credits (because of phylacteries). Improve/make changes to token wares and associated things. Do not change elite at this time.

Step 2. Change promotion schedule to reduce promotion/money fatigue.

Step 3. Let this roll and see how it works out. 

Khizan

I see a few problems with this, but the biggest problem I have right now is that Selthis said everything I was going to say, and he did it way better than I was going to say it

Selthis

Someone brought up shelves in the Caanae market stall.  I forgot about that aspect of shopkeeping. Refund the gold to the shop owner for the cost of the shelves.

Jeremy Saunders

I am bringing my wife the the airport, so I am not ignoring this, but I will answer tomorrow sometime while I mull it over.

Selthis

Sorry, going to need a long,well-reasoned  5 paragraph essay in response typed up on your phone while you're sitting  in the airport.

(That's fine, I just mostly wanted to throw in input)

Khizan

A big part of my problem with the pay-promotions is that while I'm not in the 0.1%, I'm pretty close to the 1%. Khizan's omni-trans. He's kitted out with all the important artifacts. Defensive, offensive, utility, check. Auction-only shifting weapon, check. I'm pretty much set.

I am at the point where I am legitimately having trouble deciding what I will get him next, but I keep my Elite for the same reason Selthis does, basically. The thing is, Khizan is at the point where I can't justify buying the amount of credits it would take to get cool amounts of your promotion things, and so I never get them.

Lalitana

I have to say I would be incredibly, ragingly angry if I logged in and the market stall I purchased and enjoy having/using was deleted just because they suddenly don't cost enough.

I don't have a really strong opinion about the token downgrade but will absolutely cancel my membership if the administration starts randomly deleting my artifacts. Breaking the 100% trade-in precedent for tomes was bad enough, thanks.

Iniar

:<

<pause>

-unsubscribe-

-play GW2-

Verexa

I have to add my voice to the fray here. I am equally disappointed in the upcoming changes mostly because there was no mention of adjusting the price of the Iron Elite membership to reflect them. Though I agree that the membership is a fantastic value for your money, I feel like removing Tokens, one of best perks of the membership in my opinion, without lowering the price at least a bit is punishing your players for taking advantage of how the Token system was managed as Ahkan and Selthis have pointed out. In short, it feels like we are losing something and there is no compensation for said loss.

That being said, I think there are a number of excellent ideas in this discussion. The administration should take the time to consider them before moving forward.

Gurn

At worst, reduce it to 1 token per month or like, 1 token every other month, but deleting tokens and reposessing stalls is just absolutely over the top and will create quite a bit of user unhappiness and lost money.

EDIT: Also, if you give me instanced solo-boss raids, I'm going to have to cut my knife addictions to buy credits to buy tokens from people to do it.

Also, for those of us who are into sects, it'd be cool if these instanced things had corpses of an extremely high sacrifice value, too. I'd love to spend a token and use a bunch of sect rituals to do well against these tougher areas, then still be able to replenish belief/faith... So, y'know, I can just do it all over again when my favours run out.

Mathiaus

With what little money I get during the month, and for how long I've played Imperian (since I was 16), the monthly rate is pretty much all I can afford at this point. Very rarely do I get an extra 20 or so dollars for that 50 credit package or less.

This month, even with how low I've been getting, I felt compelled to give into Elite and give the coders and Jeremy and everyone something to show that I do appreciate all their hard work and am willing to give my hard earned money to support what I love.

I'm not sure how this will roll out, but all I can hope for is the best.

@Selthis - You rock.

Azefel

To me, it was never "huge value", it was just the least terrible value ranging between 11.7c to 15.2c per credit ($25 for 164 → 214 cr), and this is not including the phylactery. This is somewhat acceptable, though definitely still on the more expensive side, IMO for game "subscriptions." The biggest cr package costs almost twice as much per cr (29c). 

I have not spent anywhere near as much on every other MMO I have ever played, combined, than I have on Imperian alone. And that's even with like 80%+ of the things I have being funded by other people because they're lazy and want my scripts. Admittedly only Guild Wars 2 comes somewhat close to letting me use mango-themed items.

Just sell credits (and tokens?) on the website at current elite $/cr conversion and everyone wins.

if anything I suppose this was a good way to convince myself to save another $25 a month

Ambrose

Just because I cannot stress this enough from the "Agree" button... Everything Selthis said is gold.

Dicene

Currently, an average novice(bashing/pking to 85ish) can hit tri-trans in one class with transed Survival and Antidotes in about 7 months of just elite. That's when they first get a real chance to get into PK(although transed Survival and Antidotes are slightly less vital now). Without tokens on elite, it would take another 2 months(9 months total) to hit that point. Just something to keep in mind.

Sarrius

I am fine with everything Ahkan and Selthis suggest besides the removal of shop stalls. People who own them should not be punished just because you guys made a poor choice about token distribution. However, I figured I'd raise a pretty valid concern here:

This devalues the Iron Elite, something that already wasn't all that attractive to me as a player. It's twice as expensive as a Final Fantasy 14  subscription (11.99/mo), and close to twice as much as a World of Warcraft subscription (14.99/mo) - both of which have much more reliable balance updates (current Twintania bugs notwithstanding ), are ran by larger companies who are much better organized (no offense meant to you guys), etc. They also have much more reliable content and story progression, have a larger and more active community, and much more less restrictive/much more spontaneous PK conflict (in World of Warcraft's case, if I roll on a PK server, I can go ganking chumps, or I can arena, or I can go to battlegrounds, or..).. where as in Imperian, I am pretty much restricted to breaking in to a city and hoping the other side plays along instead of vortexing me in to guards or siege, or waiting on a shardfall or some idiot Aspect to let go of their monolith. Imperian's actual PK is far more interesting (cue Menoch's Gladiator Season Reminiscence Skit), but the game has such a small amount of manpower that they take a long time moving on to the next class remake or deliberating on a new conflict system. Not to mention that the game is slowly phasing out the kind of combat I find fun really by no fault of its own - the game had to evolve to be more inclusive or else it was going to die).

Now, I'm not making a case against Imperian itself.. but Iron Elite costs 24.99 a month for what, really? I don't need the credits or the lessons. I don't need the EXP bonus since I'm not a Pokemon Master about Aspect Perks. I have every defensive artifact I truly want and I do not foresee myself needing any new offensive artifacts in the near future (a level 3 dartsheath is all I can really fathom right now). Subscribing to Iron Elite, without the tokens, just seems like an even bigger misplay to me than it already is. The tokens can be used to buy something cool down the road that you guys think up but don't put a credit pricetag on (which strikes me as somwhat arbitrary in the first place, to be honest) - if you take away those 2 tokens a month, why am I paying you twice the price of an MMO subscription when none of the other benefits matter to me right now?