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Experience loss and a couple other things

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  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭✭
    The xp gain on lower levels is nearly insignificant.
    image
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Mathiaus said:
    The xp gain on lower levels is nearly insignificant.
    "Hey man, make an alt, get easy kills in shardfalls, bash for a tiny amount to hit a reasonable level, then let me kill you"

    EDIT:
    See also "CLAN MYOOCBUDDIES TELL Hey, someone let me farm xp off of you."
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • MathiausMathiaus PennsylvaniaMember Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Make it so the person has a cool down to give you exp after so many deaths within a reasonable amount of time, to prevent farming on a single individual.

    (cmon, throw more at me!)
    image
  • TekTek Member Posts: 4
    edited July 2013
    "Unfortunately he said if he takes out XP loss on death, he will be removing any effect PvP XP has on your Overall level to prevent, 'Hey buddy, let me kill and then resurrect you 1000 times so I can get to Aspect, then you can do the same to me."

    Oh I read that, I just don't think it's the correct decision.  There's got to be several ways in which farming your friends could be quashed, diminishing returns being the first that springs to mind, either on killing the same person and reset on killing someone else, or just killing in general and reset over time.  

    I think we'd be missing a trick removing pvp xp instead of increasing it. 

    On a similar note, I think quest xp could stand a pretty drastic improvement as well, I don't really understand why mindless bashing is the only way to aspect. I personally would have no issue if we awarded xp for all manner of things, harvesting, smithing or 'says' for instance.  Aspect is where the game starts, not ends after all.
  • BathanBathan Member Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's just a matter of policing it. We have an active group of Divine. If you see someone going the Dias/Justus route of farming kills, come down from on high and put them in their place. The community generally despises it and will be more than willing to point it out. It is ultimately about making policy and having the stones to enforce it, rather than letting it go on. That's what happened before and a lot of people felt the achievement was drastically cheapened.

    If someone is forced to roleplay to farm a couple of kills in order to beat the fuzz, I'm fine with that.
    ‘Least I won’t have to carry it no more. You see how bloody heavy it is?’

    ‘Every sword’s a weight to carry. Men don’t see that when they pick ’em up. But they get heavier with time.”
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,247 admin
    Yeah, we talked about doing that before I started this thread. Not going to happen. Someone will find a creative way to farm it.

  • AulaniAulani Member Posts: 199 ✭✭✭
    Khizan said:

    And so, PvP should be rewarding for the player, and not just in the "It's fun and it's satisfying to beat the crap out of the enemy" way, but in a mechanical way that encourages new players to jump in. In a way that gives them an incentive to do something they might not otherwise be interested in, because PvP can hook you FAST. Just look at Aulani(<3).

    So true. After nine years of playing this game on and off. I never had much interest in PvP, I could only code well enough to run away and when I knew I deserved the death I usually stuck around. But a few shardfalls and a little help and I was absolutely hooked.

    And I have to agree, the rest of us shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ellarynth next?
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 524 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PVP levels grow pretty slowly, so make the  amount of overall XP gained based on the relationship the  killer has to the victim.   Level 2  pk level person kills a level 90 person? That's great, they get 40k pk levels and 40 real levels. No big deal.  But as they get closer to parity, the leveling curve reaches parity with the  standard.  So a l level 90  pk person farming a level 20? Only gets  .01% or something per kill. 

    pk level 2 killing pk level 90 = WOO LEVEL PARTY 
    pk level 70 killing pk level 90 = Well, I got part of an overall level, but man I need to get like 10 more kills like that 
    Pk level 90 killing pk level 90 = Well, I got 1%, only 100 more to go. Oh god this is gonna get slower.
    pk level 90 killing pk level 20 = haha, enjoy your .01%

    And then go with some sort of agression timer.  If someone not in the same circle hits the person  in the prior 20-30 seconds to death then they get a cut of the xp, but its a faction of what the killing blow lands.  So the killing blow might score a sweet 1m xp, but the 4 people with the assists earn the 200k each if there were  5 total people involved

    I'm sure I'm explaining it badly, but I hope it makes enough sense to get  the point across.
  • IniarIniar AustraliaMember Posts: 3,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    E: Nvm.
    wit beyond measure is a Sidhe's greatest treasure
  • AhkanAhkan TexasMember Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    The farming situation is easy to avoid. You already have the mechanic in place, blood baths. Take out the point enhancement and just reduce the pk value for someone who dies all the time.

    Breakdown of team demonic based on theoretical amount of dying:
    Ahkan: 80%
    Lionas: 100%
    Mena: 1%
    Menoch: 40%
    Kanthari: 150%

    The more they die in time period x, the less they're worth. Time period could be something like 20m. 

    The degree to which you'd have to farm this and make it profitable would be blatantly obvious. It'd be even easier to detect if you use the bloodbath-like mechanic. We'd be able to spot it and we could report it to you. After that, it's really on the admin how they want to play it. If you don't want it to be farmed, you need to Sparda someone early and without mercy. After that, no one wants to step out of line. 
    image
  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USAMember Posts: 594 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    In all seriousness just using the ICD timer that already sucks hardcore for those of us trying to grind out pk levels to negate any experience, pk or overall, gained from said person is going to be a huge deterrent to farming it. Bam, no more broad spectrum farming and as was already mentioned, anyone that does attempt to farm it is going to get noticed and reported in a heartbeat.

    The idea of having a clan for ranked 2's or 3's or something in Caanae is absolutely awesome. Duels and team duels in world pvp, where real stuff happens like ohgod I hate restocking herbs and so i ran out of kelp and lost, that is just amazing. You could work ranked spars into that too somehow if you wanted. And RP opportunities for pk'ers who like to RP and for those who can't do so outside of their circle abound. 

    Just the amount of general fantastic that could come from this idea of pk leveling is astounding.

    E: words
  • JosiphJosiph Member Posts: 33
    Everything Menoch just said.
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,247 admin
    I will think about this a little.

    What if...
    1. XP from PVP is reduced. No 40 levels for a level 1 killing a level 100. Max the xp gain to 1 level or less max.
    2. XP gain from killing people much lower in level and might gives little to no xp.
    3. XP gain from killing the same player multiple times is reduced.
    Basically killing people the same level/might or higher will be the best source of XP.

    Thoughts? What other caveats are there? Gaining levels via pk -can- be easier then bashing, but it should not be ridiculously easier either... I think.

  • LabilLabil Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    What is wrong with 40 levels for a level 1 novice? I can take a novice through creepers or Gongen and they get a level every 3 mobs.

    I don't see the XP gain from PVP as that high to start with, so not sure about both 1&2.

    About number 3, what is multiples times? What about players being resurrected, startbusted, Aryana holders with anchor that get back to the fight in less than a minute?

    Also, nothing on shared PVP xp?
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,247 admin
    It does no good for the novice. If that is a real novice, we want them to experience the game more. Not skip massive parts of the game

    Not killing people who are lower skilled in PVP is to keep people from killing weak players just for xp and encourages killing people equal in skill level.

    You currently get no XP on repeat kills in an hour. So that will not really be a change.

    We are adding in shared PV XP in rings.

    I am actually considering turning on XP for PVP in the arena with these changes. What do you think of that idea?

  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Assuming that might and PVP skill or even ability to PVP are in any way linked is pretty fallacious. Different classes require wildly different investments, and away from tri-trans things are pretty wide as well.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,247 admin
    Agreed. I am going to have to base it on pk level and maybe pk activity somehow.

  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 524 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jeremy said:
    I will think about this a little.

    What if...
    1. XP from PVP is reduced. No 40 levels for a level 1 killing a level 100. Max the xp gain to 1 level or less max.
    2. XP gain from killing people much lower in level and might gives little to no xp.
    3. XP gain from killing the same player multiple times is reduced.
    Basically killing people the same level/might or higher will be the best source of XP.

    Thoughts? What other caveats are there? Gaining levels via pk -can- be easier then bashing, but it should not be ridiculously easier either... I think.

    Jeremy said:
    It does no good for the novice. If that is a real novice, we want them to experience the game more. Not skip massive parts of the game

    Not killing people who are lower skilled in PVP is to keep people from killing weak players just for xp and encourages killing people equal in skill level.

    You currently get no XP on repeat kills in an hour. So that will not really be a change.

    We are adding in shared PV XP in rings.

    I am actually considering turning on XP for PVP in the arena with these changes. What do you think of that idea?

    I am pretty good with all these things. This seems like a fair compromise to everything we want vs what you're looking for.  I'm also fine with capping the xp gain at a level, as I understand the point in that as well. 

    I do wonder though, how will the contribution to overall xp be calculated.  Will someone who is pvp level 90  be worth more  overall xp than someone who is pvp level 70, assuming the kiiller is level pvp level 50 assuming they were both overall level 90?  I guess what I'm asking is  xp gain for overall going to be based on pvp level or overall level?
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,247 admin
    I think it may be a combo of both. However, PK level would have to be the most important factor.

  • KhizanKhizan Member Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also, an hour seems like a REALLY long timer.Hell, that means you only get EXP from the first kill in an Obelisk fight. 

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,247 admin
    I am open to options. The problem is the whole farming thing.

  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 524 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Diminishing returns per person.  First kill vs person1 gets 100%, second kill 90%, third kill 80% etc down to 0% on the 11th kill in an hour period. 

    Make the xp calculation depend on pk level more heavily than overall level.  Especially since PK level increases much slower than overall level. 

    Also by letting someone pk you repeatedly, not only are they getting less you're consistently worth less farming.  

    It kind of prevents itself.  If it is something that is above and beyond the norm of killing
  • Jeremy SaundersJeremy Saunders Administrator Posts: 1,247 admin
    That even seems a bit to slow. Kill someone 10 times in an hour? I would lean more to 25% chunks.

  • DiceneDicene Member Posts: 913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Regarding pk experience sharing. Is there any other way we can do it other than strictly ring-based? I've brought up on the forums before how I really don't want Magick to have to go the massive ring route for shardfalls and the like. We've got a Clan specifically for it and that has worked out great so far.

    Best method I could think of would be similar to the mechanics of boss mobs. Give experience to everyone in the same circle(so you don't have anyone pre-kicking their allies to steal some of experience) as the killer that has performed an aggressive action against the victim within the past 60 seconds(to prevent people from following graced or other similar abuse).

    Pretty please? I like keeping my OOC and pk as far apart as I can.

    Edit: 25% chunks over a 1 hour cooldown sound about right to me. It's very rare when a shardfall runs on for more than 5 or so battles, so I don't think it'd have any real effect there.

    Also, when splitting experience, I'd be sure to make sure people get smaller shares of the same base amount of experience gain, depending on the number of participants. Something like 60/40 for two combatants, 40/30/30 for three, 30/23/23/23, 25/18/18/18/18, and so on. Those numbers seem pretty fair to me.
    image
  • DularDular Member Posts: 1
    I like that idea... the 25% chunk... it still gives you a fair amount of experience in a shardfall but at the same time keeps everyone from saying "Don't harvest shards and let's just kill one another for the hell of it and for the xp'z". Also, random thought, does Imperian's server keep track of PK levels on those who have previously killed you? Like say someone killed me a month ago, would it have their PK level from the time they did? If so, then something you could do is take a look at the KILLS list, check the PK level of each person on that list, then average that PK level, and use that as a percentage modifier to multiply by max possible XP from PK.

    For example, say max possible XP was 1M, and someone killed me... but before I had killed someone of PK level 50, PK level 70, PK level 80 and PK level 60, the average of those is 65. So for killing me, the person would get 1m * .65, or 650K XP.

    Just my thoughts.
  • SelthisSelthis Member Posts: 524 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2013
    Jeremy said:
    That even seems a bit to slow. Kill someone 10 times in an hour? I would lean more to 25% chunks.
    Its really not though.  Lots of things encourage quick return to pvp.  Obelisk battles, shardfalls, city defense, things like that.  

    As a compromise, what about something like  15%?

    Also, the fact that with each kill the person you are killing is worth less xp  on top of losing the thing that determines their pvp worth (via loss of pvp level over time).  

    There is no restriction on bashing providing diminishing returns for example. As it is, with any decrease at all with the xp gain and loss of  XP on death combine to  actively   slow the gain even with any sort of "farming" possible.

    And of course, there is always a players out there that are willing to report transgressions that other players commit, as I'm sure you're well aware.

    Edit; All of it being actively based on pvp level really does make the people unwilling to be farmed for the most part, especially if the pk level gain is relatively slowed (max of 1 pk level per kill now for example).
  • LionasLionas Member, Historian Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dicene said:
    Edit: 25% chunks over a 1 hour cooldown sound about right to me. It's very rare when a shardfall runs on for more than 5 or so battles, so I don't think it'd have any real effect there.

    Followed by N monolith battles for the people that lost their monoliths, which easily run into the dozens.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
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