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Affliction Tracking?

Hello -

I have a basic understanding of how to script an affliction tracking module in my client of choice (Cmud). I do have a question, though:

How does one factor random cure methods into such a script? Focus appears to be on a priority tree, so I can track that easily enough, but I have no idea how to handle tree tattoo or purge blood in a tracking system - and for obvious reasons, starting an affliction stack over every time someone uses one of those methods would be inefficient. I also have no idea how to touch on passive curing from various classes, which I'm sure exists.

Tips, suggestions, ideas, tricks and the like would be welcome.
Gop, the Glutton

Comments

  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USA
    edited July 2013
    Guessing, and contextual clues.

    I.E. - If target just attacked you, target isn't paralysed. I have more #DELI targetaffs paralysis triggers than anything for my knight stuff.

    Elaboration/Clarity Edit: There are also a few toxins that give 3p (third party, third person, or roomwide) messages, either for when they are cured or afflicted, or both. So you use those intelligently to try and assist you in making a determination as to what they can or can't do. Metrazol, Hemotoxin, Butisol, Ketamine, I just woke up and it's 0443 so I'm drawing a blank on the others... but like Mercury. Okay if you hit with mercury, and you see them smoke, you know they don't have asthma.
  • Is focus really curing from a priority tree or is it random?
  • IIRC, all cure methods like that are random.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • edited July 2013
    With a few exceptions. Whispering madness is always cured first, instilled affs (assassin/renegade) and affinities (new mage and summoner) will be cured last.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • How you track depends a lot on what class you are. Apart from the exceptions that Lionas mentioned and some similar Hunter afflictions that are always last in certain conditions; tree, focus, purge, might, soulstorm, and even plant/smoke/salve all cure at random. That is to say, if a curing method has more than one affliction it could cure, it picks which affliction at random.

    This means that if you stick to only one affliction per herb, and the afflictions with 3P messages, you can generally track easily. You have to figure out how you want to deal with things like tree and purge though. If you stick Hemotoxin(kelp with a 3P) message, !that's one less thing to worry about. That leaves tree. The easiest way to deal with tree is probably to guess at what it cures, but this is sloppy. You could also assume that it has cured the highest priority affliction you have, or you could even assume that it has cleared vital afflictions and redo them all. Those examples are all kind of sloppy, but you have to start somewhere.

    The thing about aff tracking that makes it so fun/annoying, is that there is so much more information you can glean indirectly. From simple things like "they're attacking, paralysis is cured" and "they have at least one toxin aff but haven't purged in more than 15 seconds" to more complicated things like assuming high priority affs are all cured when they cure lowpriority(not always doable with custom priorities, but you can even figure out some of the target's priorities if you dedicate some time to testing things). Also, some classes have other tells. Hunter gets discernment(10% chance to see when a specific cure message on any kind of cure, even silent cures like passive) and they can trigger and watch for when a trigger goes off to know that a specific aff has been cleared.

    For more specific information from us, we need to know what class you are, but that should be a decent overview. Start small with just things that you can know for sure, then build on as you get more experience.
    image
  • I have both Deathknight and Diabolist classes.

    I haven't really started working on affliction stacks yet, since I've been working on the tracking side of my system, so I'm not exactly sure what the ultimate goal of either class is for killing someone. I gather that deathknights vivisect or behead as available, though, and I was told that deathknight is the class I should seek to master first, if I want to get into pk here.
    Gop, the Glutton
  • DK is simply because, once you know how to limb count and feint, or have a decent toxin queue, you can vivisect 95% of players. Worst case, in a team, you can always just dish damage and be good.
  • Honestly. With DK you can hit with no toxins as long as you hit with butisol at the right time. It's not rocket science.
  • ... so all curing in the game, save some very specific affs, is randomized? And you can guess, sometimes, if they've got the big affs?

    And this is something you guys are cool with? No wonder damage killing is the favored route, anyone who wants to go for affs gets to play pleasepleaseplease roulette...

    I see a few posts around here that mention things along the lines of 'if you can track their afflictions' or 'x is easy, if you know what affs they've got', and a few more that say you could probably enjoy diabolist if you've the time or inclination to script a tracker to keep a handle on afflictions, but I sort of wonder how you could possibly script something you literally have no control over.

    Focus, tree, purge and whatever class cures they bring to a table, plus herbs, smokes and salves and your only real method of tracking is to see what they -haven't- got, which for an affliction oriented profession means pretty much diddly, since it's all about the lesser afflictions that exist to keep those big afflictions on.. and this assumes that said bigger affliction has a 3p message, which it might not..

    I really hope that it comes across as less dismal in application than it does in theory, because if affliction combat in this game is mostly just about annoying them until you can get a damage kill, I'll be disappointed.
    Gop, the Glutton
  • Getting an aff kill is one of the most satisfying things ever in the game. Take your 700hp and go to Dis.

    If you like a challenge, aff tracking is right there for you. Anyone can mash a damage button.
  • Labil said:
    Getting an aff kill is one of the most satisfying things ever in the game. Take your 700hp and go to Dis.

    If you like a challenge, aff tracking is right there for you. Anyone can mash a damage button.
    I think this is the biggest reason I'm so disappointed that affliction combat is looking like more luck than anything else. Luck that whatever method of curing they're using didn't cure the thing I tried to give them that I needed to make the second thing they didn't manage to cure worth it etc.

    I like the notion of finding the strategy that requires conditions to match up. I don't like the idea that my neatly planned stack or setup relies on the person I'm fighting getting unlucky with their cures.
    Gop, the Glutton
  • Labil said:
    Getting an aff kill is one of the most satisfying things ever in the game. Take your 700hp and go to Dis.

    If you like a challenge, aff tracking is right there for you. Anyone can mash a damage button.

      Killing the people with great healing systems with raw damage is one of my favorite things in the game.

    "Hey, take your Eclipse Mark II SuperHealerAwesomeSystem and cure around this. *druids all over somebody*"


    Also, it's totally not luck. Or, if it is, some people(Azefel, Kryss, etc) are consistently lucky.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • It isn't luck, it's statistics.
  • edited July 2013
    Pre-Edit: Heads up, Wall of Text inbound.

    Not really so much about luck as you think, you've just got to find ways to deal with not being told exactly what has been cured. Or, block as many cure methods as possible, and assume that tree has cleared anything important that doesn't have a 3p message and isn't otherwise trackable.

    Examples:

    Hunter's most popular kill method is having a short, quick stack set up that under perfect circumstances can kill someone extraordinarily quickly. I've worked out what I think is the fastest kill you can get with Brainmelt. Takes about 14-15 seconds from start to end, and that's Athletic. If I had a Diadem and were Fast, it would probably be around 12 seconds. This setup only works on people with default curing priorities(or close to default), but it works on those people because I know exactly what order everything will fire in and exactly how you will cure, every step of the way. Building the stack wasn't horribly difficult, it just took experimenting with things and paying special attention to the priority of things. With as short as the stack is, and it making intelligent use of affliction priorities, you're only curing what I want you to cure, and I've not afflicted you with anything else on an herb that I want you to cure with, so there is no RNG involved(apart from trigger failing to work the way it's designed half the time).

    I afflict with Recklessness and Peace. Almost everyone will cure Recklessness(3, Mandrake) before Peace(4, Galingale). Hemotoxin(5, Kelp) that was shocked before-hand ticks after you cure Recklessness. Recklessness is triggered for Impatience(5, Mandrake) and Heroism(7, Mandrake), but both are lower priority than Peace(4, Galingale), and so you cure Peace next when you regain plant balance right before I can combo again. Peace is triggered for Hallucinations(5, Wormwood) and Paranoia(9, Wormwood). Both are low priority, so neither will be addressed before I melt. I regain balance and EQ and afflict with Stupidity(4, Orphine) and Dementia(9, Wormwood). You cure Stupidity next because it's the highest priority left, and because I haven't stacked any other Orphine, there's no chance of you curing anything else instead. Stupidity is triggered with Confusion(5, Wormwood) and Lethargy(5, Nightshade), but could really be anything, since you don't have a chance to cure them before I regain Balance and EQ and melt you. Now, there are a hundred different reasons why that only works on some people(people that are bad 1v1, or have just never seen it before), but it's an example of making priorities and different herb stacking work for you.

    The following is how I understand DK to work. You start by pushing Hemotoxin and just hindering with high priority things like Metrazol and Ciguatoxin. You'll know what they cure pretty easily at this point. Clear their Fitness(depending on class) by throwing in a use of Mercury. If you've got decent sabres and are fast, you afflict faster than people cure, so once you've gotten ahead of their curing and the afflictions aren't both cured before you can attack again, you move on to other afflictions. If you push other kelp afflictions(kelp stacking is very common in aff classes, and is facilitated by a lot of toxin afflictions with 3P messages), you can stack a bunch of other kelp afflictions on top of Hemotoxin, and reapply Hemotoxin when you see it cured(3P message). Kelp afflictions are easy enough to track because most have 3P messages. After you've stacked a few kelp affs, you can move on stacking high important things and force them to leave the kelp affs alone. I think at this point as a DK, if you've set up limb breaks and have stacked Butisol(drastically slows salve balance recovery), you could start the breaks with two high priorities like Ciguatoxin/Metrazol to make sure that the Butisol stays for a few salves, then hit with Benzene or Benzedrine when you break the second pair of limbs, if they've already repaired a limb. Since their restoration salve applications should be stupidly long to recover from now, you should be able to recover balance and Vivisect at this point. If this isn't working, keep pushing high priority/low priority to force them to cure the high priority and slip the low priority in. If you are tracking Metrazol, Asthma, and Hemotoxin, you should be able to slip in Nausea and Xeroderma, both of which tick damage. If you keep pushing Maidenhair and Asthma too fast for them to get another cure in after those two, you might pull off a Xeroderma kill, if not, keep pushing and hold the Nausea until they hit Unconscious from hunger, and limb break again. Might even be able to cleave during the Uncon time.

    Most important things to notice there, everything important is trackable. You're not usually stacking more than untrackable thing with trackable things, which makes the untrackable stuff trackable. Only potential issues I see with that method would be tracking tree(again, most of the time, it should hit something trackable. otherwise, have a lot of "if smoking then asthma was cured" statements. When dealing with passive curing, I'd assume you could do about the same thing as dealing with tree, you just don't have the luxury of actually seeing when passive ticks.

    When dealing with mental affs, in my limited experience stacking mental affs, it's mostly a game of either sticking impatience first, then hitting with high and low priority affs at the same time, slipping low priority affs through one at a time. Hunter works that way. You push impatience first, then stack Wormwood and Orphine affs and as long as you keep pressing high priority afflictions with toxins, and don't let them cure impatience, you should be able to stack mental afflictions pretty well. Since they're not focusing, and Hunter has a way to deal with tree, you know that if they haven't eaten Wormwood or Orphine(which they shouldn't, since you're only stacking low priority afflictions), they haven't cured any of those afflictions. Add some low priority Mandrakes so they have less of a chance of curing Impatience, and you should be able to stack pretty quickly. If they do cure Impatience, you'll know when you see them focus. Drop it on again next round with another high priority aff, and they should have only gotten in one focus. Six mentals shouldn't take long to stack, so when you hit that point, melt. Or, you can drop Poison Mind, then start stacking Bloodpoison for a Rupture. Not sure how Diabolist deals with things, since they've got Infirmity, but I think it's more about stacking until you can Infirm a few things, then focusing on a different herb and Infirming that, then once you've got a few set, you should be able to Cath very easily.
    image
  • If you wish to play with afflictions then you should know now that Hunter and Assassin are vastly, vastly superior. There is no substitution for Brainmelt which is incredibly easy to perform and takes such a short amount of time to 'setup' that it's almost not even relevant. Nor is Hunter bothered by rebounding. Now we have Assassin which aside from having perhaps the greatest set of utility and fun skills in the game also has access to the insanely powerful hypnosis and with it hypochondria. Unless your opponent chews through mandrake like nothing else (and most won't) they will be riddled with mental afflictions in mere seconds. Even if they do eat lots of mandrake they will then find themselves paralyzed for extreme periods of time or whatever else you might choose to doublestab them with. You can also totally stop rebounding any time you so choose!

    Diabolist has a far slower setup then either of the aforementioned classes. Not only must one generally prepare the room, one must then slowly set infirmities (probably at least two) to have any chance of killing with catharsis. Of course, one might just try and stick addiction but there are ways around that. Anyway, Diabolist is hindered by rebound where Hunter and Assassin are generally not. You can choose to have a razorfiend (which razes rebounding) over a nightmare but that won't help your afflictions any. I still believe the class works and have seen it work both at the hands of others and at mine, it's just that it requires considerably more effort on the users behalf.

    Now Deathknight is an old relic of a class as indeed are knights in general. Whilst they have seen little tweaks here and there they in general remain tried and true to how they always have been. In setting up afflictions you will have to always be aware of rebounding and whilst it is possible to advance afflictions you will find that one lucky cure is all it takes to force a restart. However, knights have the advantage of also dealing damage with every attack and depending on who you're fighting, that damage might well be enough. Alas, there are many people who have such high resistance and survivability that it will not be and that even should you manage to lock them up they will fitness and passive their way out of everything and still be sitting on 100% health. This is where you might think to vivisect and whilst that is a very good option indeed you should just be aware that you will be dealing then with rebounding, parry, changed priorities, resetting limbs and all manner of other things that can end even the most perfect setup (balance knocks, unfortunate rebound timing, paralyzed sword arm..)

    All of this is just a hasty rant, so take it with somewhat of a grain of salt. All of the classes mentioned above have plenty to offer besides various means to cut cookies and your choice of class should likely not be based on that alone.


    Plot twist - Bard is better then all of the above. You get to deal out heaps of afflictions (masked ones too!) whilst continually stunning, confusing and disrupting your target which renders any offense against you almost nil. You can work toward dealing out really high damage or an instant kantae all the while content in the knowledge you don't have to worry about rebounding, have passive healing and even a faster writhe time to boot.

  • MenochMenoch Raleigh, NC, USA
    OP sounds like an Aetolian, who all say the same thing when they come here. Well, let me just tell you, as someone who was tlocking with indorani and praenomen in a couple of weeks of playing there, that preset curing orders are the definitive LACK of skill. Add Discernment into that, and you're capable of coding an aff tracker with like 8 triggers. This way is far harder. Of the many people I've seem come over from Aetolia, the vast majority of them complain that it is too hard and quit. It really isn't 'too' hard, it is just difficult, and playing ezmode on other games with preset cure prios and super slow motion curing balances is not the same.
  • AhkanAhkan Texas
    edited July 2013
    Honestly, there's a lot of useless information in this thread.

    If you're going to take anything from this thread, as long as you're willing to sit down and knock out the work coding a decent system, you'll be fine. The best thing to do in any game is get a reasonably good system and back it up with experience behind you.
  • edited July 2013
    Menoch said:
    OP sounds like an Aetolian, who all say the same thing when they come here. Well, let me just tell you, as someone who was tlocking with indorani and praenomen in a couple of weeks of playing there, that preset curing orders are the definitive LACK of skill. Add Discernment into that, and you're capable of coding an aff tracker with like 8 triggers. This way is far harder. Of the many people I've seem come over from Aetolia, the vast majority of them complain that it is too hard and quit. It really isn't 'too' hard, it is just difficult, and playing ezmode on other games with preset cure prios and super slow motion curing balances is not the same.
    You can't truelock as an Indorani.

    In any event, I haven't quit yet. I just see the advantage that raw damage classes have. Skill and satisfaction aside in getting an affliction-related kill (which I agree is satisfying), if there's considerably less effort involved in getting a damage kill versus having to set up for an affliction kill given the disparity in how much coding is required. For example, Predator really just requires an effective limb counter from what I've noticed, whereas a Diabolist has to put more coding effort into forming a reliable affliction tracker. The common player that doesn't have much coding know-how is likely going to just resort to the button mash classes because they're more likely to be successful with the least amount of coding effort involved, or at least effort that doesn't require a disproportionate amount of time. Given that there have been attempts to make combat more accessible for all through aspects such as baseline server-side curing and being able to more easily track limbs, I don't think an equiv. to Discernment is really that abnormal to consider. 
  • Damage kills are also a lot easier to prevent and artifact yourself out of. There aren't artifacts to increase your cure balance, but there are plenty that let you mitigate damage offenses.
    I am the righteous one... 
    the claims are stated - it's the world I've created 
  • Lionas said:
    Damage kills are also a lot easier to prevent and artifact yourself out of. There aren't artifacts to increase your cure balance, but there are plenty that let you mitigate damage offenses.
    Sure, I don't dispute that. My point is that people are more likely to pick up a class like Druid because of the raw damage potential and less effort that they have to put into coding a damage offense versus a class like Runeguard because there is more coding involved to track afflictions and possible unknown variables in those affliction trackers like focusing, purge blood, etc. With limb classes having been given the means to more easily track their offenses, I'd say that given the greater inherent difficulty with (most) affliction classes, giving them Discernment for more efficient affliction tracking wouldn't really be that much of a stretch.
  • No. Imperian does not need true affliction tracking.  Never ever.  Have you ever seen a full on flickdancer or a good Assassin/renegade?  With true aff tracking ala discernment, you are basically giving classes that are  already insanely strong without it a huge potential boost.


  • Therys said:
    You can't truelock as an Indorani.

    In any event, I haven't quit yet. I just see the advantage that raw damage classes have. Skill and satisfaction aside in getting an affliction-related kill (which I agree is satisfying), if there's considerably less effort involved in getting a damage kill versus having to set up for an affliction kill given the disparity in how much coding is required. For example, Predator really just requires an effective limb counter from what I've noticed, whereas a Diabolist has to put more coding effort into forming a reliable affliction tracker. The common player that doesn't have much coding know-how is likely going to just resort to the button mash classes because they're more likely to be successful with the least amount of coding effort involved, or at least effort that doesn't require a disproportionate amount of time. Given that there have been attempts to make combat more accessible for all through aspects such as baseline server-side curing and being able to more easily track limbs, I don't think an equiv. to Discernment is really that abnormal to consider. 
    You've obviously never played a predator, sure it's counting limbs and such, but go count @Eldreth's limbs or @Khizan's or pretty much any Aspect in the game for that matter and tell me how well that works out for you.

  • Delrayne said:
    You've obviously never played a predator, sure it's counting limbs and such, but go count @Eldreth's limbs or @Khizan's or pretty much any Aspect in the game for that matter and tell me how well that works out for you.
    Sure. I'll let you know how it goes.
  • AhkanAhkan Texas
    edited July 2013
    Honestly, affliction classes are not all that difficult. Make a system to track it and then code your offense around it. It's not rocket surgery. Depending on your class, you will reap the rewards of awesome. (P.S. Saboteur is pretty ez mode affliction god). Imperian doesn't need 100% affliction tracking. You can decimate people with 80-90% tracking. You can actually win with craptacular toxin tracking. I know this because I pk with some of this people who 'track toxins' but hit with the same toxin over and over. Imperian afflicts faster than whatever game you came from. Imperian's skills are more over the top that whatever game you came from. Everything is faster than whatever game you came from.  The shameless plug here is that we're  the vikings of the IRE world, like the guy who runs our game (Booyah). You said that a class can't true lock you in Aetolia. Well, in Imperian you can be truelocked by several classes. The rest of them just spam 3 afflictions on you periodically and then kill you at their leisure. Stop in. Play the game for a year. After that year of combat,  come back and try and be pro"this game needs perfect affliction tracking." 

    The problem is that affliction offenses are precisely that, affliction. Most classes have modes of 'affliction'' or 'damage'.' (Haha, wait until you see Summoner and Mage. No one told them that). 100% affliction doesn't transfer so well to the team game that is called "OMG DAMAGE." Sure, you can 1v1 your way through team combat and be absolutely useless (I'm thinking of someone here...) but you're going to drag your team down. Team is all about the quick the quick put away, which is always damage. This is why you see the Shayleis and Rugas of the world rolling druid. The class is one button.

    Edit:
    Limb counting is easy if you know how to multiplication.
  • Runeguard needs to affliction track to be a duelist. In a group fight, though? You can roll claymore or axe as Strong and just hit dude and defend squishy people, and you'll be 100% totally awesome and everybody will love you.

    And something like discernment would be amazingly strong here. Giving them discernment would mean rebalancing them all around it, and we're talking major rebalances here.

    "On the battlefield I am a god. I love war. The steel, the smell, the corpses. I wish there were more. On the first day I drove the Northmen back alone at the ford. Alone! On the second I carried the bridge! Me! Yesterday I climbed the Heroes! I love war! I… I wish it wasn’t over."

  • Affliction rate is fast enough to include some redundancy due to errors.
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